Author Topic: The militia in Oregon.  (Read 1510 times)

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Offline Chino

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The militia in Oregon.
« on: January 05, 2016, 09:29:41 AM »
Why don't the feds just cut all utilities to the building?

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2016, 09:40:51 AM »
I have little to add to this really, but that I've heard them referred to as Y'all Qaeda and Vanilla Isis.  I lol'd.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 09:56:36 AM »
Why don't the feds just cut all utilities to the building?
Eventually they will. However those guys are out there sleeping in -10 weather. They're prepared to make do.

I'm perfectly fine with just ignoring them. Sooner or later you might have to act, but as of right now they're largely irrelevant. What I would suggest is maintaining tons of aerial surveillance. If something does go bad, I'd want all the evidence in the world about what really happened. No amount of video will ever convince the people who think Clinton had the Davidians murdered, but for most of us it'll actually matter.

Also, LOL at the people who think that the near-100 year long encroachment of the federal government in that region is the result of Obama's commie ideology.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 10:04:41 AM »
No amount of video will ever convince the people who think Clinton had the Davidians murdered, but for most of us it'll actually matter.

One of the largest travesty's ever....in the history of our country....the federal Government outright storming and murdering it's own citizens just to cover up it's own ineptness and illegal actions, then gets the media to brand it as the fault of the 'crazy cult'.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 10:13:53 AM »
No amount of video will ever convince the people who think Clinton had the Davidians murdered, but for most of us it'll actually matter.

One of the largest travesty's ever....in the history of our country....the federal Government outright storming and murdering it's own citizens just to cover up it's own ineptness and illegal actions, then gets the media to brand it as the fault of the 'crazy cult'.
I believe you and I have had this discussion before. The government acted with its customary incompetence, but the cult was crazy and they did barbeque themselves.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 10:14:46 AM »
I haven't the slightest clue what either of you are saying/talking about. Can you explain like I'm five?

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2016, 10:35:33 AM »
I haven't the slightest clue what either of you are saying/talking about. Can you explain like I'm five?

Long story short.....the ATF raided the Branch Davidians on the 'claims' that they were selling illegal gun parts....that could modify semi automatic weapons to fully automatic. The Davidians did sell guns, but....they offered to the ATF to come and take a look for themselves.

There was a hearing for more funding for the ATF and I'm assuming they thought that a big 'successful' raid on some bad guys would bolster their case...so they decided to raid the Davidians instead. A shootout occurred and subsequently a long standoff that ended in the compound going up in flames, killing all the Davidans which included children.

What wasn't seen by the public was the fact in the Senate hearings following this failed raid was that all video the ATF shot during the raid went missing, the front door to the Davidian compound went missing (which would have shown which direction the initial bullets were fired from) The ATF claimed the Davidians opened fire....something that was contested by Vernon Howell (David Koresch) over and over in the standoff.

There is FLIR video from a plane that clearly shows agents firing guns at the Davidians when they were trying to escape the fire (which EB and I disagree on who started it) I think the evidence is pretty clear that the government used their modified tanks to smash open the four corners of the building which created a perfect wind tunnel to fuel the fire....then they pumped the nerve gas into the compound from the modified tanks....and threw flash bang grenades into the compound which started the fire. The nerve gas by the way was pumped directly into the room where the kids were.....their bodies were bend over backwards from the reaction to the nerve agent...anyway......

there was a documentary made in the late 90's called 'Rules of Engagement' and it details the Senate meetings and all the evidence which clearly illustrates the government killed those people.

The Cult was nuts.....I'll give them that, but they didn't break any laws.




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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 10:40:22 AM »
If a group of armed, militant black men took over a Federal building in, say, Atlanta, would it be treated differently than this episode is being treated?  I would say yes.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2016, 10:50:56 AM »
If a group of armed, militant black men took over a Federal building in, say, Atlanta, would it be treated differently than this episode is being treated?  I would say yes.

I'd say the take over of any federal building other than this one would have gotten a response much different than what we've seen so far. The building they are in is in the middle of nowhere and gets less foot traffic than my bathroom at home. These guys couldn't pick a safer place to squat.

If an all black militia took over this same building in the exact same fashion, and were acting in the same manner, I think the feds reaction would have been exactly the same. If an all black militia took over a federal building in Atlanta, I'm not sure what the result would be. I think in the name of the second amendment, white militiamen would jump in and join.


Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2016, 11:18:44 AM »
(which EB and I disagree on who started it)
No, actually we disagree on there was gunplay at all. Muzzle flashes are very consistent when seen on video. They last 1 frame (at 30 FPS). They don't change. The average duration of the glints seen on the FLIR video average 7 frames in duration. They're light and thermal reflections seen in IR.

And a few side points: If LEA is serving a lawful warrant, do you get to shoot at them? They were overheard torching the place in pretty good detail, which would fulfill DK's prophecies. The survivors are very clear on the fact that they were expecting to martyr themselves in fulfillment of that prophecy.

You might check out the Frontline documentary on the affair. Even-handed, as they usually are.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2016, 12:00:08 PM »
You might check out the Frontline documentary on the affair. Even-handed, as they usually are.

You know what....you told me about this one the last time we talked about this and I completely forgot to check it out. I need to do that because the only doc I've watched was the 'Rules of Engagement' one and it did tend to lean to the side of the Davidians.

And, I want to clear up that I'm not defending DK.....dude was a whack job that raped little girls. The sad part is that the little girls he did rape had parents that gave permission to DK to do so....and in Texas at that time parental consent is all that he needed.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2016, 12:25:27 PM »
You might check out the Frontline documentary on the affair. Even-handed, as they usually are.

You know what....you told me about this one the last time we talked about this and I completely forgot to check it out. I need to do that because the only doc I've watched was the 'Rules of Engagement' one and it did tend to lean to the side of the Davidians.
Yeah, I remember watching W:RoE and finding it a little to pushy towards the guy's beliefs. Frontline makes it a point to talk to everybody it can to get the all around picture.  In this case it's the interviews with the FBI negotiator that are most enlightening. He's the first to admit that the FBI/ATF bungled it in many ways, himself included, but he had a lot of time invested in bringing that thing to a safe conclusion and was devastated by what happened. If you want a great analysis of all of the mistakes the FBI made it's the thing to see. Their mistakes led to the Davidians killing themselves, but that's not the same as knocking the walls down, gassing them, shooting escapees and torching the place.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2016, 01:57:31 PM »
If a group of armed, militant black men took over a Federal building in, say, Atlanta, would it be treated differently than this episode is being treated?  I would say yes.

I'd say the take over of any federal building other than this one would have gotten a response much different than what we've seen so far. The building they are in is in the middle of nowhere and gets less foot traffic than my bathroom at home. These guys couldn't pick a safer place to squat.

If an all black militia took over this same building in the exact same fashion, and were acting in the same manner, I think the feds reaction would have been exactly the same. If an all black militia took over a federal building in Atlanta, I'm not sure what the result would be. I think in the name of the second amendment, white militiamen would jump in and join.

This. I'm not saying agree with what they are doing, but they are handling this in a way different matter than a group like BLM would. This by my definition is a civil protest. Doesn't matter what color you skin is but how you act that should illicit the response.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2016, 02:08:34 PM »
This by my definition is a civil protest.

As much I think taking over a federal building is an act of terrorism more than a "civil protest," I can't help but appreciate they are going this route rather than marching through traffic or taking over a shopping center.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2016, 02:27:08 PM »
This by my definition is a civil protest.

As much I think taking over a federal building is an act of terrorism more than a "civil protest," I can't help but appreciate they are going this route rather than marching through traffic or taking over a shopping center.

I'm still waiting for it to unfold. These people have too much pride to just get up and walk away, and I highly doubt their demands (are we even sure of what those are exactly?) will be met. I feel like something is bound to happen eventually.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2016, 02:37:12 PM »
This by my definition is a civil protest. Doesn't matter what color you skin is but how you act that should illicit the response.
So if you break into a Federal building and occupy it while heavily armed, but you're polite about it, it's OK?

I really don't get how this is being handled and viewed at all. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2016, 02:43:33 PM »
Some of them will be prosecuted, eventually, but there's no reason to turn it into a bloodbath. The siege of Alcatraz lasted 19 months. Like I said before, you isolate them and leave them be for a while. Some will get bored and leave. In a few months you go in and round up whoever's left. Prosecute those guys. I reckon they have until wildfire season to ignore them.


edit: A bit of reading suggests that it won't take anywhere near that long. They're laughably undermanned and unprepared. Bundy's been pleading for more people to join his cause, but it doesn't seem to be happening. Moreover, the local townsfolk want them to leave. The Man's best bet is to offer up a token gesture as a way to save face and they'll give up on their own. Then send them a bill for cleaning up the mess they made.

Interestingly, one of them provided an address to send necessary supplies to, which presumably they're relying on the US postal service to deliver.  :lol
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 02:59:59 PM by El Barto »
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2016, 02:56:11 PM »
I have little to add to this really, but that I've heard them referred to as Y'all Qaeda and Vanilla Isis.  I lol'd.
We can now add: YeeHadists and Yokel Haram to the lexicon.  :lol
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Offline Podaar

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2016, 07:06:06 PM »
I don't know why, but Yokel Haram is kicking my ass.  :rollin

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2016, 07:42:38 PM »
Those names are pretty hilarious.

Seriously, EB is right, this should end soon, they don't have any backing from the locals. But this can't be allowed to set a precedent.

Also, there's this from ABC News: "Man Behind Armed Oregon Band Says He's on Mission From God."

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Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2016, 10:43:51 PM »
Seriously, EB is right, this should end soon, they don't have any backing from the locals. But this can't be allowed to set a precedent.
I think the way you prevent this from becoming a precedent is by ignoring their silly asses right on into pathetic irrelevance.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2016, 05:54:58 AM »
Seriously, EB is right, this should end soon, they don't have any backing from the locals. But this can't be allowed to set a precedent.
I think the way you prevent this from becoming a precedent is by ignoring their silly asses right on into pathetic irrelevance.

Agreed. I understand there's freedom of the press, but I wish we could just tell the media that they can't go within a half mile of the building. Give these guys no press. Show them no attention whatsoever. Cut off the power and running water. They'll be gone in two weeks. Once everything settles, charge everyone in there with breaking and entering.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2016, 06:10:52 AM »
Seriously, EB is right, this should end soon, they don't have any backing from the locals. But this can't be allowed to set a precedent.
I think the way you prevent this from becoming a precedent is by ignoring their silly asses right on into pathetic irrelevance.

I doubt that will stop someone else from doing the same exact thing a year from now. The media won't be able to stay away from it, especially if it's a chance for the liberal media to show another consequence of the "dangers of guns."

Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2016, 08:05:18 AM »
Seriously, EB is right, this should end soon, they don't have any backing from the locals. But this can't be allowed to set a precedent.
I think the way you prevent this from becoming a precedent is by ignoring their silly asses right on into pathetic irrelevance.

Agreed. I understand there's freedom of the press, but I wish we could just tell the media that they can't go within a half mile of the building. Give these guys no press. Show them no attention whatsoever. Cut off the power and running water. They'll be gone in two weeks. Once everything settles, charge everyone in there with breaking and entering.
It's the press coverage that's showing us how underwhelming these people really are. Let them talk all they want. The more they try to look impressive, yet come across as weak, the more they'll look like losers when they walk out of there.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2016, 11:33:27 AM »
Pretty much have zero to add to this that el Barto hasn't said already in half the words.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2016, 09:49:27 PM »
So first the townsfolk want them gone. Then the local constabulary said it wants them gone. Now they got the Indians pissed at them.  :lol

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/01/06/oregon-standoff-leader-compares-effort-rosa-parks/78345968/

Gotta say, if anybody has a right to bitch about land being stolen it's the red man. Not sure how Bundy can really formulate an argument against them.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2016, 12:31:20 AM »
So first the townsfolk want them gone. Then the local constabulary said it wants them gone. Now they got the Indians pissed at them.  :lol

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/01/06/oregon-standoff-leader-compares-effort-rosa-parks/78345968/

Gotta say, if anybody has a right to bitch about land being stolen it's the red man. Not sure how Bundy can really formulate an argument against them.

It would take some serious stretching to wiggle an argument there for sure.
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Offline Genowyn

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2016, 12:44:35 AM »
A good video (besides the mistake on the capital) on why the whole thing is absurd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e7-7vWWW6Y

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2016, 06:59:38 AM »
Honestly, I know "race" has been mooted by some as being an element in this, but there is one commonality at this point for me.   I couldn't care any less about the militia in Oregon than I could about the latest "#blacklivesmatter" attention-grab, I'm sorry, I mean "protest". 

They've both exhausted their 15 minutes with me.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2016, 07:44:02 AM »
#proglivesmatter 

Offline Stadler

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2016, 08:14:11 AM »
^^^ Haha, yes, yes they do.  :)

Offline jasc15

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2016, 03:58:41 PM »

Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2016, 06:13:02 PM »
 :lol
Quote
As for the Bag Of Dicks business, the company was launched in Austin during SXSW last year, and the mention in the militia's video is basically a bag of free advertising -- grabbing thousands of eyes from the original Facebook post and all the blogs that followed. Now, the company is offering people a 25% discount when sending a Bag Of Dicks to Ritzheimer at his general mail address in Burns, Oregon.
"When the Oregon Militia posted their address asking for snacks, obviously we had to act," the company said in a blog post. "And act we did...by blasting our thousands of email subscribers with a promo code to send those 'brave souls' Bags Of Dicks."
"It's the American way to help our brothers in arms in any way we can," the Bag Of Dicks company wrote. "We're proud the Oregon Militia is enjoying our tasty Bags Of Dicks. They could certainly use the high fructose sugar rush to help keep their stronghold safe from police, bears, and elderly gift shop patrons."
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2016, 03:43:01 AM »
This is my contribution to this thread:

Oregon Miltia Idiot Upset Because People Are Sending Bags of Dicks

That just shows the intelligence level of these people. That man has no idea what kind of door he just opened by showing that. The internet is about to show its true wrath.

"We're going to keep doing work". By work, does he mean squatting in a tax funded building while begging people over the internet to send them free stuff so they can continue to squat?

Offline jasc15

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2016, 06:38:43 AM »
I watched a video which made an excellent point:  If government claims of ownership are illegitimate, which is the claim of these folks, then any claim of private ownership resulting from the homestead act and related acts are also illegitimate since it was never the government's property to give.

The idea that private ownership exists outside of some government framework is absurd, when you really think about it.  If I claim a piece of land, what makes it mine?  There must be some legal framework to prevent others from making claims on "my" property.  Otherwise it is simply feudalism where I have to defend my claim with force, and nothing prevents a more powerful force from taking it from me.  Private ownership cannot exist without government.