Author Topic: The militia in Oregon.  (Read 1473 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2016, 06:56:38 AM »
I watched a video which made an excellent point:  If government claims of ownership are illegitimate, which is the claim of these folks, then any claim of private ownership resulting from the homestead act and related acts are also illegitimate since it was never the government's property to give.

The idea that private ownership exists outside of some government framework is absurd, when you really think about it.  If I claim a piece of land, what makes it mine?  There must be some legal framework to prevent others from making claims on "my" property.  Otherwise it is simply feudalism where I have to defend my claim with force, and nothing prevents a more powerful force from taking it from me.  Private ownership cannot exist without government.

Please don't ruin this by trying to baffle them with reason, logic and fact.  :) 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2016, 08:28:08 AM »
So nothing has been done about these douchenozzles yet?

I've gotta be honest, that pisses me off a little. 
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2016, 09:01:03 AM »
They've got a meeting with the locals tomorrow and I suspect they're told to GTFO. At this point I reckon they're looking for an excuse to give up. What they're doing is insignificant in the grand scheme, so I consider this fantastic strategy.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2016, 10:12:22 AM »
They've got a meeting with the locals tomorrow and I suspect they're told to GTFO. At this point I reckon they're looking for an excuse to give up. What they're doing is insignificant in the grand scheme, so I consider this fantastic strategy.

I reckon that deep down a lot of them are hoping for an excuse to use their trigger fingers.

Offline jasc15

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2016, 11:20:32 AM »
Yeah I feel some of them would like nothing more than a firefight with some federal officials.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2016, 11:35:38 AM »
'Murca

Offline Genowyn

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2016, 12:06:56 PM »
Yep.

...my name is Araragi.

Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2016, 09:31:41 AM »
Good read;

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/14/armed-oregon-militia-federal-law-legal-experts-prosecution-prison-fines

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Over the past two weeks, the militia have made themselves at home in a number of federal buildings, using the siteís kitchens, beds, offices, museum and other buildings. The Guardian has repeatedly witnessed occupiers driving federal vehicles around the compound. Other reporters have also observed members of the militia accessing government computers and possibly using employee ID badges left on site.



Offline SystematicThought

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2016, 09:03:04 PM »
"Keep your stick on the ice. I'm pulling for ya. Remember we're all in this together."
-Red Green

Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2016, 09:19:37 PM »
I hope Johnny had a helluva lot of video surveillance happening when this went down. As I've said, no amount of video in the world will sway the true believers, but I'd just as soon see a high level of CYA in something like this.

And the [lack of] support from the right is pretty interesting. FOX has the story halfway buried, and their minions posting comments are pretty much of the good riddance mindset. It's Obama's fault, of course, but a rather trivial offense in the grand scheme.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2016, 06:23:58 AM »
If the police didn't have every dash and body cam aimed at this situation, this could get ugly. One of the victim's children posted to Facebook;

Quote
"I want the world to know how my father was murdered today. His hands were in the air and he was shot in the face by the American authorities. Ammon Bundy reported there are six witnesses to this evil."


This article actually has a lot of quotes that I'm not seeing elsewhere.
http://www.infowars.com/eyewitness-oregon-militiaman-murdered-by-cops-he-had-his-hands-in-the-air/

Offline kaos2900

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2016, 06:39:21 AM »
This whole situation has just been strange. And yes, I hope they have film of the shooting or you are going to see more situations like these. People are already fed up with the federal government as it is. It wouldn't surprise me if the FBI "loses" the footage somehow.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2016, 08:11:53 AM »
If the white gun nuts now have to adopt Hands Up Don't Shoot it's going to be priceless.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2016, 08:13:10 AM »
 :lol :lol

Offline Stadler

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2016, 10:36:18 AM »
Does it make me a bad person that I absolutely could not care less about this whole thing?   My general interest in politics and current affairs should not be in doubt, but this is... <YAWN>.

Offline jasc15

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2016, 11:28:31 AM »
If the white gun nuts now have to adopt Hands Up Don't Shoot it's going to be priceless.
They are already adopting elements of this:

The protester [Jason] Patrick likened Finicumís death to the killing of Tamir Rice, an unarmed 12-year-old African American boy fatally shot by police outside a Cleveland recreation center in 2014. The officers were not charged.

"The government can kill who they want for whatever reason they want with impunity," Patrick said.

Offline jasc15

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2016, 11:35:03 AM »
Does it make me a bad person that I absolutely could not care less about this whole thing?   My general interest in politics and current affairs should not be in doubt, but this is... <YAWN>.
I tend to remain on a "low information diet"*, as the below blogger explains.  Maybe it's defeatist, but I can't change the course of societal momentum.  No individual can.

Last night, a military friend of mine mentioned the impending doom to me, which is the first I had heard of the situation. Unfortunately that triggered a late night of sweaty reading on my part, catching up on the history of this predicament, cursing the bullshit and the rhetoric of the responsible members of congress, and generally being pissed off about things.  But after an uneasy sleep and a slightly groggy morning, I opened my shutters and found a clear blue sky with bright yellow sun, singing birds, and my lovely family running up to me to request hugs and breakfast. And thus, my plans for today do not include reading any more of the news.

*of course I realize I've posted in this thread about the situation in question.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2016, 12:09:42 PM »
Oooo. The shit just hit the fan.

I hope they have video or else it's gonna cause some massive backlash against cops.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2016, 03:56:16 PM »
So the dead guy is the one that made it clear that he was willing to die for the cause, and that he'd rather be shot than arrested. I suppose that's why Obama ordered a death squad to go and execute him.

Sources from within LEA said that they lit up two vehicles which pulled over. One remained stopped and the other took off. After driving into a snow bank the driver jumped out brandishing a gun and was promptly shot. Given the guy's attitude that actually seems rather plausible.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2016, 04:27:32 PM »
I'm actually surprised/bummed that there wasn't a higher body count.

Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2016, 06:23:21 AM »
Welp, after being arrested and having his #2 killed, Bundy has called for the remaining squatters to pack up and leave. Let's see how serious these guys really are.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 07:36:38 AM by Chino »

Offline Stadler

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2016, 07:36:05 AM »
If the white gun nuts now have to adopt Hands Up Don't Shoot it's going to be priceless.
They are already adopting elements of this:

The protester [Jason] Patrick likened Finicumís death to the killing of Tamir Rice, an unarmed 12-year-old African American boy fatally shot by police outside a Cleveland recreation center in 2014. The officers were not charged.

"The government can kill who they want for whatever reason they want with impunity," Patrick said.

I guess with Corey Haim's passing, which rules out a sequel to The Lost Boys, he's got a lot more time on his hands.   What about Speed 3? 

Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2016, 08:40:09 AM »
I only heard the tail end of it this morning, but it appeared to be an audio clip of the driver of the second car saying that the dead guy really did charge the cops. If their own side is admitting to this it'll only be the really lost cause types that stick with the "Executed by Obama" story.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2016, 08:43:47 AM »
I only heard the tail end of it this morning, but it appeared to be an audio clip of the driver of the second car saying that the dead guy really did charge the cops. If their own side is admitting to this...

I've heard similar reports. If that is true, that'd explain why Bundy is asking them to stand down. I imagine if this guy was truly executed by the police, he'd be telling them to hold their ground and while trying to stir up an internet shit storm. If this is proven to be true, this dead guy's actions (who I believe had a death wish) just spoiled the whole party and lost them all credibility.

In a twisted way, I'm anxiously awaiting for footage.

Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2016, 08:46:56 AM »
http://mashable.com/2016/01/27/militia-live-stream-defendyourbase/#icvawreuSuqw

Quote
On Wednesday, the men and women remaining at the compound prepared for war ó and invited the whole world to watch them do it.

They launched a series of live streams beginning Wednesday afternoon on the "DefendYourBase" YouTube channel. The live video shows men, wearing camouflage and carrying rifles, fortifying their position and preparing for a shootout with the federal government.

Offline jasc15

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2016, 12:43:05 PM »
Finicum's daughter already used the word "martyr" to describe him.

http://www.ktvz.com/news/lavoy-finicums-tearful-daughter-says-hes-now-a-martyr/37675976

Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2016, 12:50:05 PM »
Finicum's daughter already used the word "martyr" to describe him.

http://www.ktvz.com/news/lavoy-finicums-tearful-daughter-says-hes-now-a-martyr/37675976

She also said;

"I want the world to know how my father was murdered today. His hands were in the air and he was shot in the face by the American authorities. Ammon Bundy reported there are six witnesses to this evil."


Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2016, 01:05:25 PM »
And yet her brother refused to say anything of the sort. When asked if his father was a martyr or a troublemaker he deflected the question. He did however suggest that he was pissed off that he valued that cause more than his family.

I will say that while I'm pretty confident this knucklehead chose to go out in a blaze of gunfire, I'm more than a little dismayed that The Man is providing any more detail. Time and time again we see that the more he tries to keep things quiet the more it feeds the conspiracy nuts. Moreover if there isn't video of what went down I'd probably be inclined to side with the whack jobs for the simple reason that The Man is clearly too fucking stupid to be attempting LE actions in the first place.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2016, 07:37:46 AM »
So the FBI released the aerial footage of the shooting. He initially came out of the vehicle with his hands up and reached down to his waste several times. Looked like he wanted to shoot the officer in front of him and then was caught off guard by the cop hiding in the woods.

Looked completely justified to me.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2016, 09:27:47 AM »
Well, he didn't charge at them, as initially reported, but he wasn't exactly behaving like somebody wanting to surrender, either. It looks like he was reaching inside his jacket after being surprised by the cop behind him. However, in this case you want video that actually clears them, and this in no way qualifies. It's ambiguous enough to leave plenty of room for the whackjobs.
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Offline jasc15

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Re: The militia in Oregon.
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2016, 02:15:58 PM »
Are these clowns of the "sovereign citizen" ideology?  It seems that some of their ideas fit, but their words don't sound as totally disjointed as other sovereign citizens'.