Star Wars, The Force Awakens -- *SPOILERS*

[Calvin6s]

You may have written Rey when you meant Ren.

Thanks.  Fixed.

[Orbert]

I think part of the problem with the Ren vs Rey fight (and before that, Ren vs Finn) is that Ren didn't "seem" that badly hurt.  Yeah, he's been hit by the bowcaster, which does serious damage and I'm sure hurts like hell, but to be honest, even minutes later, I'd forgotten all about that because he didn't really look like he was hurt.  I've only seen it once, but was he visibly limping, like, a lot?  Was he bleeding?  Seriously questions; I don't remember.

But what I do remember is that when they were fighting, I was thinking "How is this guy not totally destroying them?"  Because in movies, you can get shot or get a limb lopped off, and you can still keep fighting without a problem.  Unless the script calls for it to be a problem, that is, in which case it's made obvious by limping or bleeding or whatever.  I actually thought it was pretty stupid that Finn and Rey each held their own against him for as long as they did, until it was pointed out here that he was pretty badly hurt.  Oh yeah, that.

[ariich]

I think part of the problem with the Ren vs Rey fight (and before that, Ren vs Finn) is that Ren didn't "seem" that badly hurt.  Yeah, he's been hit by the bowcaster, which does serious damage and I'm sure hurts like hell, but to be honest, even minutes later, I'd forgotten all about that because he didn't really look like he was hurt.  I've only seen it once, but was he visibly limping, like, a lot?  Was he bleeding?  Seriously questions; I don't remember.

But what I do remember is that when they were fighting, I was thinking "How is this guy not totally destroying them?"  Because in movies, you can get shot or get a limb lopped off, and you can still keep fighting without a problem.  Unless the script calls for it to be a problem, that is, in which case it's made obvious by limping or bleeding or whatever.  I actually thought it was pretty stupid that Finn and Rey each held their own against him for as long as they did, until it was pointed out here that he was pretty badly hurt.  Oh yeah, that.

Everyone else that gets hit with a bowcaster not only dies but is flung across the room. It's a powerful weapon.

[Calvin6s]

I still don't get how people question the Rey vs Ren fight.

I don't get how people discount Rey had
 - been in nonstop action for what was probably 1-2 days ... would push anybody into exhaustion
 - Even if she was some Super Jedi at age 8, ten or so years would be quite a bit of *ring rust*
 - had to take in a lot emotionally ... accepting her family wasn't going to return, finding and then quickly losing a father figure
 - emotional trauma and confusion with Anakin's saber
 - put in a state of paralysis, shock of thinking she was about to be beheaded, then *knocked out*
 - woke up to an interrogation
 - had to escape by herself
 - physically - thrown 30 feet into a tree and knocked out "yet again"

So they were both compromised greatly.  Then you go back to the saber skills, clearly in Ren's favor.  He didn't just suddenly succumb to his injuries (which should have been an easier save for him than the Poe shot considering the growling telegraph and distance)

It didn't bother me on first watch.  The movie was extremely fun the first viewing.  But once I replayed it in my head and then further viewings, it started to lose a little something.  It really kind of struck me as The Last Dragon

It was a bit confusing because Rey did a meditation to find her Force Qi or her Buddhist center.  But then she clearly was fighting with dark side power (like Luke RotJ).  She basically lapped (multiple times) any previous Jedi *training* advancement we've seen in any previous SW movie.  Search your feelings.  You know it's true.

But like I said, I'm going to reserve a more conclusive judgment until after the trilogy arc completes.  It feels like they painted themselves into a corner with this ending, but that could just mean the explanation will be a more surprising and rewarding conclusion.  I'm hyped up for Ep. 8 and 9.  It really could go either way.  It could be a dark Ep.9 ending setting up Ep. 10-12 for resolution.  Or it could go RotJ ending where everything seems to be set right again.  As long as they don't reboot Ep 4-6 for the entire trilogy.

One of the more interesting fan theories is Luke and Leia turn on one another because of their unbreakable connection to their offspring (assuming Rey is Luke's kid).

[Fiery Winds]

I think part of the problem with the Ren vs Rey fight (and before that, Ren vs Finn) is that Ren didn't "seem" that badly hurt.  Yeah, he's been hit by the bowcaster, which does serious damage and I'm sure hurts like hell, but to be honest, even minutes later, I'd forgotten all about that because he didn't really look like he was hurt.  I've only seen it once, but was he visibly limping, like, a lot?  Was he bleeding?  Seriously questions; I don't remember.

But what I do remember is that when they were fighting, I was thinking "How is this guy not totally destroying them?"  Because in movies, you can get shot or get a limb lopped off, and you can still keep fighting without a problem.  Unless the script calls for it to be a problem, that is, in which case it's made obvious by limping or bleeding or whatever.  I actually thought it was pretty stupid that Finn and Rey each held their own against him for as long as they did, until it was pointed out here that he was pretty badly hurt.  Oh yeah, that.

Ren pounds on his gut wound right when he confronts Rey and Finn escaping, and Rey notices the blood dripping on the snow. Ren also pounds on his wound again in the middle of the fight. A blast which would have decimated anyone else, and he's still able to move around despite any movement at all aggravating the wound on his "core". Not to mention, both combatants (Finn v. Ren and Rey v. Ren) disengaged multiple times to either recover or get away.

And not only was Ren seriously injured, but Ray already was alread a badass with a staff weapon, so i could see her being able to improvise with a saber and she's naturally gifted in the force as well (maybe even more so then Ren) so there is that factor as well.

This. Ren's primary skill in the Force seems to be mental manipulation and telekinetic feats, not physical combat. Other than the vision Rey had of the Knights of Ren wiping out the other Jedi hopefuls, we don't know if Ren has had to face a serious combatant with a lightsaber. For all we know, he crafted his lightsaber after turning to Snoke/The Dark Side (which would also account for its crude construction) and simply mowed everyone down, most of whom, if not all, hadn't even reached that stage in Luke's training. Yes, I'm choosing to disregard the scene of youngling's training with mini-lightsabers in the PT.

Then in Episode 9, leia is killed in front of Ren somehow, possibly by snoke, thus rekindling the last piece of the light side he had in him and allowing him to redeem himself. Like yeah, he hated his father and blamed him for a lot, but at this point we have no idea if he cares for mother. Much remains to be seen.

On the bridge when Han confronts Ren, one of his last pleas to his son is "We miss you", and you can see Kylo start to tear up as he struggles with what he had already decided to he needed to do. Coupled with Leia's regret for sending her son away to Luke for training, I think Kylo is conflicted with his love for her as well as a certain amount of resentment.

[Calvin6s]

And not only was Ren seriously injured, but Ray already was alread a badass with a staff weapon

And in high school, I was a bad ass Water Polo player.  But when we played the football team in a game of football (or wrestling), they'd slaughter us.  We'd destroy them even worse in the pool than they did on the field.  We'd have to play basketball, tennis, badminton, soccer or some other neutral game for it to be competitive.  In combat sports, look at boxers crossover to MMA or football players turn boxer.  It usually ends in a blow out.  Only lots of training and experience corrects that.

Luke steps in and puts up a valiant fight but ends up dying
...
Leia is killed in front of Ren

Damn.  Is Chewie even safe if you were to write the scripts?   

They've already flipped the script with Ren almost having a Luke like journey (except fighting the light instead of the dark).  Snoke (Yoda) wanted Ren to kill his father (Snoke: Ren - Solo / YodaBen: Luke - Anakin), but Ren not only chose a different path (dark), but a different choice ... going through with it.

Luke was kind of both seen as potentially powerful, but also somewhat dismissed as not a true warrior early on.

So, what if Snoke completes Ren's training and then dies like Yoda?  What I got from the events was not that Snoke needed to simply level up Ren some more because he lost to a newb.  Snoke was withholding the final training because those Skywalker's tend to meet a relative, realize they are light and kill their dark master.  Ren proved himself (this will be your biggest test.  He means nothing to me.  I don't know if I can do it.  Can you help me?) by killing Han.  That's what triggered the key to the final training course, not his loss.  I got the impression Snoke was ready to give up the dark goods the minute that lasersword pierced Han's torso.

There's lots of talk about Ren being a double agent for the light.  And there was probably enough left in the script to open that possibility up without it conflicting.  He's being torn apart by his mission.  Personally, that seems less rewarding.

I like the idea of Ren being Luke's star pupil until Rey Skywalker starts training.  His jealousy (and insecurity) leads him to Snoke and the Knights of Ren.  They slaughter the temple, but Ren is pulled to the light when a Knight goes to kill Rey, so Ren takes out one of his own knights.  Ren both hates and loves Rey (as a relative), so he drops her off on Jakku.  There is also the possibility that he doesn't want to kill his uncle.  Perhaps Luke didn't run to Achto, but Ren stranded him there.  This would relieve the worry that Luke actually left his daughter on Jakku with Simon Pegg of all people.   It isn't that Ren is undercover, he's just trying to be powerful without having to kill his relatives.  Like all Skywalkers, he's a family man.  No matter how evil they get, don't f*ck with their family.  Unfortunately, Snoke forced his hand on Han.  Ren had to decide between that elusive power and never having to kill a relative.  He had daddy issues, so even though it was hard, he had something to draw upon to do the deed.  And "that girl" showed up again, so he can't leave anything to chance.

[bosk1]

And not only was Ren seriously injured, but Ray already was alread a badass with a staff weapon

And in high school, I was a bad ass Water Polo player.  But when we played the football team in a game of football (or wrestling), they'd slaughter us.  We'd destroy them even worse in the pool than they did on the field.  We'd have to play basketball, tennis, badminton, soccer or some other neutral game for it to be competitive.  In combat sports, look at boxers crossover to MMA...  It usually ends in a blow out. 

Yup, totally.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCwlB1oP6OQ  Oh, wait...

Yeah, and aside from that, you are talking about sports requiring very different skills.  Phoenix87x is talking about styles of combat that are not so dissimilar, and against an adversary that was grievously injured. 

So, what if Snoke completes Ren's training and then dies like Yoda?  What I got from the events was not that Snoke needed to simply level up Ren some more because he lost to a newb.  Snoke was withholding the final training because those Skywalker's tend to meet a relative, realize they are light and kill their dark master.  Ren proved himself (this will be your biggest test.  He means nothing to me.  I don't know if I can do it.  Can you help me?) by killing Han.  That's what triggered the key to the final training course, not his loss.

Hmm...I like this theory. 

[Calvin6s]

Yup, totally.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCwlB1oP6OQ  Oh, wait...

And yet when I started that thread here .....

As a simple rebuttal, perhaps if Rey used Darth Maul's saber.  And Ren met Rey after she had been professionally lightsaber fighting for 4 years.

[Zantera]

I also think people give Kylo Ren too much credit when it comes to his saber skills. He was strong with the force, but why does that have to mean he was equally strong with the saber? Luke was never trained with the saber, and it wouldn't be surprising if he taught his pupils mainly the ways of the force (like he was taught himself by Yoda), and considering the lack of both Jedi and Sith at this point in time, it's not like Kylo Ren has met any major opponents in a 1v1 duel. Sure, they talk about how he turned and most likely got rid of all the others, but if they were all pupils, it's not like he met any major competition. Again, it's pretty easy to be badass and break people with the force if all you're up against are normal non-force users who can't do much about it. The fact that he was severely injured combined with him underestimating both Finn and Rey resulted in him taking some bad hits.

Snoke said that he would finish Ren's training and I think the saber skill plays a big part in that. Before the force awakened (pun intended) in Rey, there really wasn't a need for Ren to be at 100%, until they found Luke. But being taken off guard by another force user, it became clear that Ren was far from the fully trained Sith that many people assumed he was when he entered the screen.

[Calvin6s]

I also think people give Kylo Ren too much credit when it comes to his saber skills.

Well, we were given evidence that he handled the saber with at least average Jedi ability.
1.  He parried away laser shots from Rey while also advancing on her.  And right before that, we were shown she was quite a good shot (and surprise, learned it by shot #2)
2.  We are shown that the stormtroopers are trained in melee weapon combat (like Rey's staff).  Despite that, he toyed with FN-2187.  And he wasn't just overpowering him.  Ren was clearly using some refined skill.  Like Vader, it was so easy that he lost focus and started admiring his work too much. 
I compare it to this
Campbell poses and Peden knocks him out
Like Vader, he realized he needed to stop toying and actually fight to win, which ends the fight in devastating fashion in mere seconds.

As far as Rey's Plagueis stick talents, we watched her beat up two unarmed thugs and a cheap shot to Finn.  Hardly proof that she is as talented ... with a non-saber no less.

it's not like Kylo Ren has met any major opponents in a 1v1 duel.

Despite the movie visual evidence, you could say the same about Darth Maul, Darth Tyrannus, etc until they actually fight.  They had masters and it is accepted (and written about in novels) that they trained with those masters.  Maul in particular couldn't reveal himself to the Jedi until the last days of his life.  The Jedi weren't exactly fighting Sith in most of their life times.  And yet, we seem them at their pinnacle of saber combat skills.

You could say the same about Vader.  The Jedi were more or less gone and he was "rusty" when Luke came back.  And yet he easily bested a half-trained Luke (as opposed to an untrained Rey). 

The fact that he was severely injured combined with him underestimating both Finn and Rey resulted in him taking some bad hits.

He was toying with Finn.  He was just admiring his work too much.  I never saw it as Finn learned how to exploit a Ren combat weakness, but that Ren was having too much fun torturing the traitor.  And I don't think he underestimated Rey at all.  If anything, his character was written to fear her because for some unexplained reason, she was leveling up exponentially every 5 minutes.  If anything, he wanted to stop her at 3:40pm, because she'd be better than Sidious by 3:45pm.  He got thrown off because the sun disappeared and it went dark even though it was still 3:35pm.  Perhaps the massive gravitational pull of that captured star was messing up his technique.

until they found Luke

I got the impression Snoke wasn't looking for Luke, but just making sure nobody else did.  It was Ren that was looking for Luke.  And I don't think we can even assume why.  The easy answer is to kill him.  Perhaps he either a) couldn't do it before because there was too much conflict in him or b) felt he wasn't strong enough, but now feels he is.  Hux made it clear Snoke was about destroying the map, not saving it.  So Ren couldn't say "I have the map, now power me up so I can kill Luke."  That would be against Snoke's plan.  Therefore, Ren felt he was powerful on his own at that point.  And what better way to prove he was stronger than Vader by doing what he couldn't ... kill Luke.  Assuming he wants to kill Luke.  Maybe he wants Luke to bail him out.  Han can't bail him out, so he had to pick the stronger side.  But maybe Luke can.  Maybe the double agent thing is right and it is time to get Luke to kill Snoke (hopefully not).

But being taken off guard by another force user, it became clear that Ren was far from the fully trained Sith that many people assumed he was when he entered the screen.

Sith?  I argued on the Star Wars thread here he shouldn't be a Sith almost a year before the release (and was told I didn't know what I was talking about).  JJ confirmed before the movie.  We don't even know if Snoke is a Sith.  And not *fully trained* doesn't mean you are severely lacking.  Lennox Lewis was infinitely better in his 2nd reign than when McCall put him down.  Wladimir Klitschko was infinitely more complete after Corrie Sanders laid him out.  But "still getting better" Lewis and Klitschko would beat up a debut pro-boxer debut with no amateur fights.

[Calvin6s]

Not that I think this is what is actually happening, but

Snoke kind of reminded me of what a reanimated corpse of Grand Moff Tarkin might look like.

[gmillerdrake]

Not that I think this is what is actually happening, but

Snoke kind of reminded me of what a reanimated corpse of Grand Moff Tarkin might look like.

This is one of the 56,243 Fan Theories out there....

https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Star-Wars-Theory-Makes-Strong-Case-Snoke-True-Identity-106197.html

[Kotowboy]

File Under "Grasping at straws"...

Why moff tarkin ? What did he even do in Episode 4 ?

[gmillerdrake]

Why moff tarkin ? What did he even do in Episode 4 ?

was so old that he happened to look like an aged Snoke

[Calvin6s]

It is all about appearance and tying in with the words of the novel that Snoke was *there* during the rise and fall of the Empire.  Not much different than the Plagueis / Vader / Palpatine / Ezra theories.  The Tarkin one is just for fun.  There's major problems with all the theories.

Personally, I don't need (or want) Snoke to be Vader, Hux to be Tarkin's descendant,  BB8 to be adopted by C-3PO and R2-D2, Phasma the lovechild of Etain and Sev, Finn to be Finn Calrissian.

But perhaps Kylo is actually Luke and Leia's kid, thereby explaining why he isn't quite right and his hatred for Han.

[TioJorge]

Ugh. Let me steer the thread back on track...







 

[gmillerdrake]

But perhaps Kylo is actually Luke and Leia's kid, thereby explaining why he isn't quite right and his hatred for Han.

Open Episode 8 with a flashback to the party on the Endor Moon.....Luke, Leia and Han all naked and wasted in a stick Hut smoking some Endor Thai Sticks.....Chewbacca in the corner with a couple hooker Ewoks...

[Calvin6s]

Hooker Ewoks

[Zantera]

I think Snoke being Plagueis makes the most sense really. Sure, The Palp said he took his master out in his sleep, but he also said that Plagueis was the only one who learned how to cheat death. Maybe he just barely got out of it alive and used the years to recover, Voldemort-style. Waiting in the shadows for the perfect time to strike, which became clear after the fall of the empire.

[Calvin6s]

Plagueis = Snoke is probably the best option if they are going to make Snoke anybody from the previous movies.  It would put a nice bow on Ep. 1 through 9.  At the same time, too many connections can start to feel hokey.

Now the first reservation is that it kind of negates one of the main arcs of 1 to 6.  Anakin bringing balance to the force.  However, it could be interesting if Ren's talk of completing what Anakin started is directly related to taking out the last Sith - Snoke/Plagueis.  That he talks to Anakin's force ghost.  Further, when he is pleading for Vader to show him the dark side, it is more of a disguising method so Snoke doesn't become suspicious.

This is what I mean when I talk about being extremely curious about where this trilogy story line goes.  It is really on the edge right now between something truly unique, something generic or something that unravels the whole Star Wars story before it.

[Zantera]

I agree and I think that's why Snoke being Plagueis would be great. Because it would tie the story together and form a thread running from the prequels to the new films, but still have a character we've only heard mentioned and never seen. If they instead went the route of Snoke being Darth Vader or Tarkin (like some theories say), that would feel forced, because that would take characters we have seen on screen, and just shove them in again for the sake of it.

[Kotowboy]

Having vader in Rogue One makes sense as it's in the same period.

Having vader in Episode 8 or 9 would seem like overkill and shoe-horned in.

[Calvin6s]

The crazy thing is I love guessing what the next Star Wars movie(s) will bring, but I also want to be wrong.  I want to to watch a movie and be taken by almost complete surprise.  Almost, because you still want to feel like it all makes sense.  Not that they simply did something you didn't see coming, but something that you can't believe you didn't see coming.  An "I should have thought of that.  It was right there" moment.

There are a few tweaks I think could have made TFA even better, but overall it had way more good than bad.  They overdid Rey quite a bit (she sure looks like what I imagine a young Shmi would).  I made a joke that Rey is the bad jedi and Ren is the good Jedi because of her British accent, but they really could help Rey's TFA story by making her overconfident and unwilling to *take the hand* of others.  I hope those repeated hand rejection moments were foreshadowing and not just a cheap Katy Perry song music video.  Real drama could build if Finn has to confront Rey as an adversary.

But then we have to worry about social justice warriors up in arms over making Rey *bad*.  Which ironically, is a stab at their own movement.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Mother of all teases!

Star Wars: Episode VIII Production Announcement

[Kotowboy]

Just saw it.

The cameras have been rolling for like 2 days and already there's a teaser. The movie is still TWO years away

It's amazing that we haven't even had a Rogue One trailer yet - a movie which is 10 months away.

[Phoenix87x]

Mother of all teases!

Star Wars: Episode VIII Production Announcement

Holy shit. Oh my god Am I excited

I love Rian Johnson's work, so I am really looking forward to what he brings to the table.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Just saw it.

The cameras have been rolling for like 2 days and already there's a teaser. The movie is still TWO years away

It's amazing that we haven't even had a Rogue One trailer yet - a movie which is 10 months away.

I could swear i've seen something but then I remembered that they did show a teaser at Comic-Con but it never went public as fas as I know.

https://vimeo.com/151952481

[TioJorge]

Just saw it.

The cameras have been rolling for like 2 days and already there's a teaser. The movie is still TWO years away

It's amazing that we haven't even had a Rogue One trailer yet - a movie which is 10 months away.

Literally the first thing that popped in my head. Wow. Kind of ridiculous... But uh...whatevs, I get it. It's still stupid.

Sometimes I like hype. The vast majority of the time it's nothing but annoying and ends up being a big downfall for a movie. Granted, with something like this there is zero chance of there not being hype already built up. It's like just the mention of the movie's existence is a perpetual hype builder. Even so...yeah two years away and there being a teaser to say "we're workin' on it" is  - worthy.

I'm interested in what Rogue One is going to bring though.

[Kotowboy]

" Rian Johnson ‏@rianjohnson  20m20 minutes ago
Day one in the can!
Meaning we finished, not that we filmed it in a toilet. Though I'm not saying we didn't. Ok I should stop typing now. "


haha.

[Logain Ablar]

Yes, when is the trailer for Rogue One due? I read a rumour the other day that Vader would make an appearance, and it would be a more substantial role than just a cameo..

Vader kicking some rebel ass would be very cool indeed. 

I wonder what Luke's first dialogue will be in Ep VIII?

"Cool, my old lightsaber! Where did you get it? Er, you didn't happen to find anything attached to it, like, er, my hand??" 

[gmillerdrake]

I wonder what Luke's first dialogue will be in Ep VIII?

"Why's my saber smell like fish?"

[Zantera]

Yes, when is the trailer for Rogue One due? I read a rumour the other day that Vader would make an appearance, and it would be a more substantial role than just a cameo..

Vader kicking some rebel ass would be very cool indeed. 

I wonder what Luke's first dialogue will be in Ep VIII?

"Cool, my old lightsaber! Where did you get it? Er, you didn't happen to find anything attached to it, like, er, my hand??" 

I think we'll probably get the first teaser for Rogue One in March or April. Possibly attached to Captain America: Civil War? Would make sense for Disney. Darth Vader will definitely have a big role in it, and it's confirmed that Jones will return to voice him. He will definitely play a part in the film, and considering this was right before A New Hope, it won't be just a cameo.

[Orbert]

I wonder what Luke's first dialogue will be in Ep VIII?

"Why's my saber smell like fish?"

It took exactly one post, less than two minutes, for things to go towards... the dark side.

[gmillerdrake]

I wonder what Luke's first dialogue will be in Ep VIII?

"Why's my saber smell like fish?"

It took exactly one post, less than two minutes, for things to go towards... the dark side.

I'm sorry...I can't help myself sometimes, well...most of the time. 

[Kotowboy]

and that is why you fail