Star Wars, The Force Awakens -- *SPOILERS*

[jammindude]

The biggest way in which this exposes the prequels is Kylo Ren. 

The prequels had actually convinced me that maybe Anakin's story should not have been told at all, and that was the problem.  But Kylo Ren just proves (IN SPADES) that an immature, inexperienced, loose cannon CAN be portrayed as a well developed, well written and brilliantly performed character.   

So yes, even though I thought the prequels were below par, this new movie exposed just how truly bad they are.

[BlobVanDam]

Being better than the prequels isn't even an achievement worth mentioning. TFA wasn't necessary to realize the full depths of how awful the PT is.

I agree with Chad. The new movie was great, nobody is arguing against that, but let's not go overboard just because it's the first decent Star Wars movie in over 30 years either.

To put it into perspective, the current user rating on imdb would put it tied with ESB as the best movie. It's very good, but is it that good? (hey, some people will think so, and that's fine too)
When all is said and done, it will still easily be considered better than all of the prequels, but it's too early to really judge it against the real movies. I actually don't think we'll be able to fully judge it until we at least have the next movie to begin to fit it into the larger puzzle of the new trilogy. There are too many points left in the air for me at this point.

[jammindude]

Only time will tell if it *matches* ESB, but as a seasoned veteran, I'm pretty comfortable in placing it at least at #2 (above ANH and just behind ESB). 

[BlobVanDam]

For me the movie is just far too blatantly derivative of the OT to touch it, but I still enjoyed it for what it was. I expect the next movie to be much better now that the groundwork has been set, and without JJ as involved.

[jammindude]

I see the "framework" that you speak of...but Finn, Rey, Kylo....they were all FAR more original and complex characters (and better written) than *anything at all* in the OT.     Rey by herself may be the most groundbreaking female action lead in action movie history.  Not even Katniss reaches her level of individuality and independence.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

I see the "framework" that you speak of...but Finn, Rey, Kylo....they were all FAR more original and complex characters (and better written) than *anything at all* in the OT.     Rey by herself may be the most groundbreaking female action lead in action movie history.  Not even Katniss reaches her level of individuality and independence.

I agree with just about all of that. Rey is a tremendous force (pun intended) and a hell of a female lead.  I loved the execution of Finn's character as well. Going from a Storm Trooper to helping the resistance.

Not sold on Snoke.... like at all.

[BlobVanDam]

I see the "framework" that you speak of...but Finn, Rey, Kylo....they were all FAR more original and complex characters (and better written) than *anything at all* in the OT.     Rey by herself may be the most groundbreaking female action lead in action movie history.  Not even Katniss reaches her level of individuality and independence.

Rey's backstory is pretty similar to Luke (perhaps more so depending on her lineage), but I do agree the new major characters were very well done, which is why I do feel that the future movies will be great now that they've set those characters on their paths to change and growth. I liked all of those new characters a lot, and think they'll be fantastic additions to Star Wars lore.
But the plot of this movie itself was almost a remake of Star Wars, and I'm still concerned that there was barely an original design in sight, mostly being slight reworkings of OT designs, or raiding Mcquarrie's original designs.

I appreciate that at this point they wanted something old and familiar to ease people back into Star Wars after the trainwreck that was the prequels, but now that everyone's convinced this is just like old Star Wars, they really need to make it new Star Wars for the next one, and I expect they will from what we know of Ep VIII so far.

My point here isn't to criticize, because I'm onboard with what they've set up, but they need to capitalize on all of the new elements they've set up before I'd compare this to the OT. I absolutely do believe the potential is there though.

[gmillerdrake]

Not sold on Snoke.... like at all.

For me it's directly tied to the CGI aspect. I think they could have pulled off Snoke without the overt CGI.....it just hit too big a nerve with me because it reminded me of the massive thing I detested about the prequels....the F'n CGI lovefest. Had they toned it down a bit and it not bee SO obvious CGI, I'd have been more sold.

[BlobVanDam]

Not sold on Snoke.... like at all.

For me it's directly tied to the CGI aspect. I think they could have pulled off Snoke without the overt CGI.....it just hit too big a nerve with me because it reminded me of the massive thing I detested about the prequels....the F'n CGI lovefest. Had they toned it down a bit and it not bee SO obvious CGI, I'd have been more sold.

I found Snoke's CGI offputting (and not in the intended way due to his deformity). I didn't think the CG was all that good for him either compared to other recent movies. Nothing at all wrong with CGI, but I felt it was behind the curve. I think they were rushed, so hopefully they improve him for the next movie.

[gmillerdrake]

I see the "framework" that you speak of...but Finn, Rey, Kylo....they were all FAR more original and complex characters (and better written) than *anything at all* in the OT.     Rey by herself may be the most groundbreaking female action lead in action movie history.  Not even Katniss reaches her level of individuality and independence.

Rey's backstory is pretty similar to Luke (perhaps more so depending on her lineage), but I do agree the new major characters were very well done, which is why I do feel that the future movies will be great now that they've set those characters on their paths to change and growth. I liked all of those new characters a lot, and think they'll be fantastic additions to Star Wars lore.
But the plot of this movie itself was almost a remake of Star Wars, and I'm still concerned that there was barely an original design in sight, mostly being slight reworkings of OT designs, or raiding Mcquarrie's original designs.

I appreciate that at this point they wanted something old and familiar to ease people back into Star Wars after the trainwreck that was the prequels, but now that everyone's convinced this is just like old Star Wars, they really need to make it new Star Wars for the next one, and I expect they will from what we know of Ep VIII so far.

My point here isn't to criticize, because I'm onboard with what they've set up, but they need to capitalize on all of the new elements they've set up before I'd compare this to the OT. I absolutely do believe the potential is there though.

I think it was a brilliant move on their part to have the similarity and it accomplished exactly what they wanted. It got those of us with the bad taste of the prequels in our mouths back on board and pumped.....I don't see Episode VIII being verbatim ESB.....but I do think Luke will go down in the same manner Obi Wan did....right in front of Rey and at his choosing while facing Ren.

[bl5150]

I had a few gripes with some of the CGI ,but as far as Snoke goes I was thinking that he was only shown in hologram form and therefore I didn't feel I could judge the CGI as harshly on that one.

[BlobVanDam]

I think it was a brilliant move on their part to have the similarity and it accomplished exactly what they wanted. It got those of us with the bad taste of the prequels in our mouths back on board and pumped.....I don't see Episode VIII being verbatim ESB.....but I do think Luke will go down in the same manner Obi Wan did....right in front of Rey and at his choosing while facing Ren.

I understand totally why they did it, and it was a smart move that worked, but it's also a bit sad on some level that people are praising it so universally right now given that it was kind of a cover version of Star Wars featuring the original musicians.

As I said, I enjoyed the movie a lot, and I'm still hoping it smashes the shit out of Avatar's box office record, I just really hope the future of the franchise has a lot more to offer than recycling the OT. If they can keep the characters from becoming reworkings of the OT (such as killing off Luke in the same way as Obi Wan, which would be an obvious and tired move), then they'll definitely succeed at that. The movie set up so much potential for Finn, Rey, Ren, and Poe, and they'll have more room to work with now that they're done covering the basics of what happened in the past 30+ years.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

Not sold on Snoke.... like at all.

For me it's directly tied to the CGI aspect. I think they could have pulled off Snoke without the overt CGI.....it just hit too big a nerve with me because it reminded me of the massive thing I detested about the prequels....the F'n CGI lovefest. Had they toned it down a bit and it not bee SO obvious CGI, I'd have been more sold.

I found Snoke's CGI offputting (and not in the intended way due to his deformity). I didn't think the CG was all that good for him either compared to other recent movies. Nothing at all wrong with CGI, but I felt it was behind the curve. I think they were rushed, so hopefully they improve him for the next movie.

I'm not sold on him based on the plot of the film, not the CGI. Palpatine lite did nothing for me.

[425]

Yikes. To me this just exhibited how good the prequels were, especially Revenge of the Sith, by not notably exceeding them in any way (besides exceeding them in disregard for continuity). Not easy to just replicate a good thing without the original creator.

This is a fine film, but parts of it unfortunately don't make much sense from a plot or continuity perspective. Everyone is overpowered. If Palpatine and Yoda can't read minds, no one should be able to, ever. Let alone some emotionally volatile twenty-something who casually allows himself to get shot and then loses a lightsaber duel to an untrained person in the actual first time that person has ever used a lightsaber. And if Anakin and Luke can't execute a Jedi mind trick on the third try and a perfect Force pull on the first try with no training, no one should be able to, ever. Let alone someone who can barely remember that the Force exists. The Starkiller base was way overpowered technologically for what is basically supposed to be an inferior spinoff of the Empire to build. It was also confusing as to what it does. Does it shoot its weapon faster than light? Because that's what it seems to do, which is way overpowered. And then the Resistance took like ten minutes to make a plan to destroy this thing, a plan that relied on the incorrect information that Finn actually knew how to do anything other than sanitation, and it still worked. None of this is really that credible given the foundation that Lucas laid in six films.

The writing was also not great, compared to Revenge of the Sith especially. That film has massive emotional peaks and valleys that are created by Lucas's great instinct for plot and some very well-drawn characters. It was also flawlessly paced and excellent from start to finish.

This one had a very promising first half that led to a rather weakly-written middle section, and then brought it back with a nice ending. But that weak middle section (I'm referring, approximately, to the part between the Millennium Falcon landing on Maz's planet and the reunion of Rey with Finn, Han and Chewie) drags the thing down as a whole. If the bridge between the first half or so and the final twenty minutes was executed better and fixed some of the objections I had, I would have no qualms about placing this fifth among the Star Wars films, behind the amazing ROTS and ROTJ and the very good ESB and ANH. But as is, it plotted more poorly than Attack of the Clones and rates only marginally better in dialogue and action.

If you want to hit Lucas for some of his dialogue, that's fair and, in some cases, warranted. But you can't do that and then pretend like the conversation between Han and Leia in the rebel base isn't the most awkwardly handled bit of exposition ever shoved into a Star Wars film.

I liked this movie, I really did. I've already seen it twice, and I'll probably go at least one more time while it's in theaters. This is more about me being aware of the flaws of this film and defensive of what I think are the wrongly maligned prequels (especially Revenge of the Sith, which I think is a film that is obviously at least as strong as A New Hope to anyone who takes off the blinders of nostalgia).

And of George Lucas, who made all of this possible and gets unjustly treated like absolute garbage by the fans.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I don't think that any of the prequels are particularly great, but I will say this: I think that certain aspects of the prequels are needlessly picked apart, and I've seen some people do that with The Force Awakens as well. The originals, specifically A New Hope and Empire, are great, but are handled with kid gloves sometimes. You could pick them apart if you wanted, but people don't want to, and I think that's fine. I don't personally have any interest in picking them apart, but I don't have any interest in picking apart any of the other films either. If people are going to look for problems in every scene of The Force Awakens, I think they should be fair and do the same to the originals too.

[TioJorge]

If Palpatine and Yoda can't read minds, no one should be able to, ever. Let alone some emotionally volatile twenty-something who casually allows himself to get shot and then loses a lightsaber duel to an untrained person in the actual first time that person has ever used a lightsaber. And if Anakin and Luke can't execute a Jedi mind trick on the third try and a perfect Force pull on the first try with no training, no one should be able to, ever. Let alone someone who can barely remember that the Force exists.

I don't think that any of the prequels are particularly great, but I will say this: I think that certain aspects of the prequels are needlessly picked apart, and I've seen some people do that with The Force Awakens as well. The originals, specifically A New Hope and Empire, are great, but are handled with kid gloves sometimes. You could pick them apart if you wanted, but people don't want to, and I think that's fine. I don't personally have any interest in picking them apart, but I don't have any interest in picking apart any of the other films either. If people are going to look for problems in every scene of The Force Awakens, I think they should be fair and do the same to the originals too.

Everything on the internet is picked apart needlessly.

However, upon entering the domain of DTF, that aspect should be multiplied by around 1927582.1846.

[gmillerdrake]

I think it was a brilliant move on their part to have the similarity and it accomplished exactly what they wanted. It got those of us with the bad taste of the prequels in our mouths back on board and pumped.....I don't see Episode VIII being verbatim ESB.....but I do think Luke will go down in the same manner Obi Wan did....right in front of Rey and at his choosing while facing Ren.

I understand totally why they did it, and it was a smart move that worked, but it's also a bit sad on some level that people are praising it so universally right now given that it was kind of a cover version of Star Wars featuring the original musicians.

As I said, I enjoyed the movie a lot, and I'm still hoping it smashes the shit out of Avatar's box office record, I just really hope the future of the franchise has a lot more to offer than recycling the OT. If they can keep the characters from becoming reworkings of the OT (such as killing off Luke in the same way as Obi Wan, which would be an obvious and tired move), then they'll definitely succeed at that. The movie set up so much potential for Finn, Rey, Ren, and Poe, and they'll have more room to work with now that they're done covering the basics of what happened in the past 30+ years.

From what Abrams said in an interview I read (Ill try to dig it up) Riann Johnson was on set and very involved in the day to day with Episode 7 and asked for certain aspects of his plan for Ep. VIII to be dropped here and there. Abrams said he has worked with Johnson and Trevorrow to help with the continuity of the three movies.

In this interview:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2015/12/13/jj-abrams-star-wars-the-force-awakens/76911016/

Abrams perfectly explains IMO why there is so much familiarity but also points out....as we all know....there is plenty of originality.

I think the next movie is going to be darker....going to be less 'giddy' and a bit more serious in overall tone.

[King Postwhore]

So like Episode V Gary?!

[gmillerdrake]

So like Episode V Gary?!

Pretty much 

[Cable]

Awesome film. I felt many more emotions vs. the other six films, which is a testament to Abrams and crew. As others said, the characters are so much developed or focused on. I got on much more with Ren vs Vader. Vader is just there, boom, I'm cool. Not for me; he only was a good character to me at the end of Ep6.

However, a knock is the obvious ADTOE approach to re-doing Ep4. Also, I am starting to despise Abrams a bit- he borrows heavily from _____ film for his franchise reboots. See new Star Treks re-visiting Wrath of Khan over two films.

[jammindude]

Blob, you may feel differently, but as I get older, I'm really looking at stories and films in the light of Alfred Hitchcock's "McGuffin" comments.

I'm going from memory, but he essentially stated that the *entire story* was inconsequential.   The entire world in which the characters reside and what they are up against is nothing but a giant McGuffin.   ....an excuse to develop the characters, and a place for the audience to get to know the characters.

This is exactly where the prequels fail and the new movie succeeds.   Lucas focused more on the world, and didn't give a crap about the characters.   This movie was completely about the characters.   They could have borrowed even more from ANH, and as long as the characters were intriguing, well written, well developed and original, it really wouldn't matter.   The Death Star is a McGuffin, as is the rebel base, the desert planet, the X-Wing trench fight...all of it. 

[425]

This is exactly where the prequels fail and the new movie succeeds.   Lucas focused more on the world, and didn't give a crap about the characters.   This movie was completely about the characters.   They could have borrowed even more from ANH, and as long as the characters were intriguing, well written, well developed and original, it really wouldn't matter.   The Death Star is a McGuffin, as is the rebel base, the desert planet, the X-Wing trench fight...all of it.

This is interesting, because I totally agree that this is the strong point of the new movie. It's at its best when it's developing characters, particularly new characters. The most well-executed parts of the film are the ones that develop Rey and Finn as characters. Some of the Han and Leia development is a bit clumsy and that's the film's weak spot, but it does, really, really well at bringing Rey and Finn to life.

But I think this is exactly where I, II and III succeed. Even more so than IV, V and VI at times (Anakin and Obi-Wan are at least as interesting as Luke and Han, and Padmé is miles more interesting than Leia). This is exactly what they do an absolutely amazing job of. Lucas had the monumental task of explaining how "a good friend" of Obi-Wan's became the most feared villain in the galaxy. And he did exactly that and more. Some of the big complaints levied at the prequels are that The Phantom Menace is irrelevant or that Lucas did not show enough about the Clone Wars. But the exact point was what you were saying: the story itself was inconsequential compared to the development of the characters! Yes, he lovingly developed the world, as he did to an equal extent in the other Original Sextet films, and as Abrams did to an equal extent in The Force Awakens. But that does not mean he neglected the characters! There are so many complex and important pieces of character development in those movies, too many to name.

But just as an example, think about this: Everyone complained that Attack of the Clones had too long of a slow section in the middle with regard to the love story. If what you're saying is true and Lucas cared more about the world than the characters, why would he include this long part of the movie that hardly touches on world-building at all and is exclusively devoted to character development? Beyond that, why do the long sequences in Revenge of the Sith that are set entirely on Coruscant and mostly in rather uninteresting or familiar environments if the reason is not character development?

I'm not saying this just to be contrary, though I am trying to contradict a narrative that claims that three of the original six movies are complete garbage. A narrative that just doesn't make sense when you look at all the films. And what is most annoying to me about the release of this new film is that it has provided an opportunity for people who haven't seen or commented seriously on them in ten years (not necessarily referring to anyone here, but in general) to continue to slam I, II and III as though they're the worst things ever made (which is an absolutely preposterous idea, especially regarding Episode III—I wonder sometimes if people who hated it were watching a different movie).

[jammindude]

I didn't think the romance section was "too long"....I thought it felt thrown together as an afterthought.   Like they had just finished a two hour movie and realized that the two main characters were *supposed* to be falling in love, and they had done absolutely zero to endear them to one another.   So quick, throw together a two minute montage (followed by a full minute of him criticizing her entire political view....ahhhh young love).   

Likewise, Obi-Wan and Anakin's "friendship" was never developed or elaborated on, we were simply told to believe that these two were best friends because the film told us so.   NOT because they took the time to actually develop the friendship.   Their history together was essentially relegated to an exposition monolog in an elevator.

I think the second movie should have been "a buddy film".  At least that would have developed the friendship of the characters so that the friendship falling apart had some form of impact in the third movie.   Never happened.    No relationship was ever truly developed in the writing or direction of the film.   We were expected to accept that characters had a relationship with one another because they said so.   Anakin and Padme never fell in love, they just said they were in love. 

EDIT:  There was more emotional development between Finn and Rey in a single film than there was between Anakin and ANYONE in *THREE* films.

[bl5150]

Looks like I am going to have to watch I to III properly as my son now wants to get into the PT.  And ever since someone mentioned how annoying JJB is , he wants to talk about him all the time 

I have watched the majority of the PT (zoned in and out while watching DVDs)  , but in what I have watched I found Hayden Christensen pretty much unbearable .  Not a great starting point there whether I end up liking the character development or not.

As I mentioned, I think the new movie has its drawbacks and I rate it below the whole OT , but one thing I think they got right (esp. with Rey) was the casting. 

[425]

I didn't think the romance section was "too long"....I thought it felt thrown together as an afterthought.   Like they had just finished a two hour movie and realized that the two main characters were *supposed* to be falling in love, and they had done absolutely zero to endear them to one another.   So quick, throw together a two minute montage (followed by a full minute of him criticizing her entire political view....ahhhh young love).

I think that sells Lucas way short. It's not a two minute montage. There are multiple scenes spread across the movie that result in a rather complex romantic plot. It's not just they hang out together, he criticizes her political views, and suddenly they're in love. At the beginning of the movie, he's very infatuated, and she totally rejects his advances ("Don't look at me like that"). Then they're put together. They discuss the topic of love, and she reminds him that he's not allowed to love as a Jedi. He carves out a loophole and leaves it at that for the time being. Later, he kisses her, she goes with it for a second (showing that she is interested), then she pulls away. They clearly have romantic feelings in further interactions, but when he confronts her with his feelings, she rejects him, saying it's inappropriate due to her position as a Senator and his as a Jedi. She rejects the idea of a secret affair because of the potential emotional impacts. She only admits that she loves him when she believes that they will both die, kissing him at that time. And once they survive, it's too late to go back. They marry at the end of the movie.

That's not a simple plot that's shoehorned in. That's complex. There are a lot of factors involved, and it reveals a lot about the characters: Anakin's bold personality and his tendency to get carried away by his passions, Padmé's deep emotions that are tempered by a caution for the pragmatic. Not exactly boy meets girl. This is complex and integral to the film and the saga as a whole.

Likewise, Obi-Wan and Anakin's "friendship" was never developed or elaborated on, we were simply told to believe that these two were best friends because the film told us so.   NOT because they took the time to actually develop the friendship.   Their history together was essentially relegated to an exposition monolog in an elevator.

I think the second movie should have been "a buddy film".  At least that would have developed the friendship of the characters so that the friendship falling apart had some form of impact in the third movie.   Never happened.    No relationship was ever truly developed in the writing or direction of the film.   We were expected to accept that characters had a relationship with one another because they said so.   Anakin and Padme never fell in love, they just said they were in love. 

I never had trouble buying them as close friends. All their interactions in the first half of Revenge of the Sith, on top of their more master-apprentice interactions in Attack of the Clones, totally sold me on that. Honestly, I far more readily believe that Anakin and Obi-Wan are close friends after Attack of the Clones than I believe that Han and Luke are close friends at the beginning of The Empire Strikes Back. Han going out to save Luke from the cold in that movie are the first time I really see their friendship cemented. Similar to Anakin carrying Obi-Wan out of the Invisible Hand on his back.

It's obvious throughout Revenge of the Sith that Obi-Wan is Anakin's closest friend and confidant. There's tons of interaction between the two in the opening sequence and on Coruscant that shows this.

Anakin and Padmé fall in love in Attack of the Clones. It is shown, visually, on screen, as well as you could possibly imagine a movie being able to show two people fall in love. Just as you visually see Han and Leia fall in love in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

EDIT:  There was more emotional development between Finn and Rey in a single film than there was between Anakin and ANYONE in *THREE* films.

Padmé, Obi-Wan, Palpatine.

I have watched the majority of the PT (zoned in and out while watching DVDs)  , but in what I have watched I found Hayden Christensen pretty much unbearable .  Not a great starting point there whether I end up liking the character development or not.

I mean, I get not liking him. But what I don't get is that he is potentially unlikeable in the exact same way that Mark Hamill is potentially unlikeable. "I was going to go to Toche Station to pick up some power converters" is as whiny as anything Hayden says.



No offense to anyone who is disagreeing with me, but how long has it been since you've actually seen I, II and II? I last saw them 10, 9 and 8 days ago, respectively. I'm saying this because I think some people probably haven't seen any of them in 9 or 10 years, and obviously there can be a tendency to forget films in that time period.

[bl5150]

I wasn't fussed about being whiny - just zero screen presence IMHO - something that I never felt about Mark Hamill.  All just opinions though............

I will watch them properly with my son and see if I can get past the lead actor annoying the crap out of me 

[jammindude]

I have seen them several times...and recently.

I'm just not seeing what you see....at all.    I watch them for the visual eye candy.   I love the pod race, I love the Darth Maul light saber duel (still the best duel in all 7 films), I love most the the action sequences in general (even though most of them feel like I'm watching a really elaborate video game instead of a movie). 

Basically, Lucas was paying homage to the Flash Gordon seriels (among others) of the 40's and 50's.   He managed to transcend it with the first film, and then other people made the idea even better, while keeping the feel.    Then he took full control and decided to take it back to the seriel level of bad acting and poor plot points, plot holes, and horrendous character development, and put it all into a really fun CGI world that happened to look really neat. 

They are fun to watch, but the story is so poorly executed that it's hard to even view it as canon.   It's like he didn't even watch the OT before writing the PT.   Things that make sense in the OT are totally contradicted by things that make NO sense in the PT.   

[BlobVanDam]

No offense to anyone who is disagreeing with me, but how long has it been since you've actually seen I, II and II? I last saw them 10, 9 and 8 days ago, respectively. I'm saying this because I think some people probably haven't seen any of them in 9 or 10 years, and obviously there can be a tendency to forget films in that time period.

I tried watching Ep I on TV a within the last year, and it was unwatchable shit that would be deservedly lost to time already if it didn't have the words "Star Wars" in the title.

[425]

I'm just not seeing what you see....at all.

I could say the same.

Basically, Lucas was paying homage to the Flash Gordon seriels (among others) of the 40's and 50's.   He managed to transcend it with the first film, and then other people made the idea even better, while keeping the feel.

Yeah, this was what it was about in 1977. It's since become much more than that. George Lucas's Star Wars is an intricately structured six-part saga that tells the story of the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, as well as the fall of a Republic, rise of an Empire, and eventual destruction of that empire. It's an epic story of the conflict between good and evil not only in the world, but also within individuals and institutions. That's what the whole saga, I through VI, achieves.

Then he took full control and decided to take it back to the seriel level of bad acting and poor plot points, plot holes, and horrendous character development, and put it all into a really fun CGI world that happened to look really neat

It is often claimed that Lucas seized control of the prequel trilogy, and I think (though this doesn't directly relate to the quality of the movies) that it's unfair to let this stand without pointing out what actually happened. Lucas approached Ron Howard, Robert Zemeckis and Steven Spielberg to direct Episode I. He wanted one of these critically acclaimed directors to help guide the creation of the prequel trilogy. All three said no, according to Howard: "They all said the same thing: 'George, you should do it!'" So the idea that Lucas seized creative control and forced everyone else out... not exactly accurate. He tried to get not just anyone, but three highly acclaimed directors, to offer outside input.
 

They are fun to watch, but the story is so poorly executed that it's hard to even view it as canon.

Honestly don't see this. Legitimately, this point of view is totally alien to me. I've watched all six of these films at least ten times each, and I legitimately a) see Revenge of the Sith as the clear best film in terms of plot and execution and b) see little difference in the quality of storyline between the two trilogies.

To be totally candid, I view The Force Awakens as a lower level of canon than the Original Sextet. I view it as "this is the vision of George Lucas, this is the story he originally wanted to tell, and then this is some stuff that other people wrote as continuations." If you ask me "how did Han Solo die," I'll tell you from The Force Awakens, but I will always view Lucas's sextet as the main Star Wars story and whatever else as continuations by others that hold a lower canonical status than the Lucas works.

It's like he didn't even watch the OT before writing the PT.

Oh, but he did. He absolutely, unquestionably, incontrovertibly did. Many times, by the looks of it.



I'm going to bow out at this point, I think. I've stated my case, and I know that most people (at least, most people of a certain generation—many viewers my age who grew up with all of the original six movies do not have the same negative view of half the saga) will never agree with me. To lay it out, my position is:

1) Revenge of the Sith is every bit as good as the very best Star Wars films, and it might be the best one of the saga.
2) Episodes I-III are intricately and intelligently plotted. They have plots and characters that usually equal and occasional exceed those of Episodes IV-VI in quality. A close viewing and careful analysis of these films makes this fairly evident.
3) The original sextet of Star Wars films, by George Lucas, forms one cohesive story that makes most sense when viewed as a whole. There are connections and complexities in plots that span multiple films or in aspects of the films that parallel aspects of others that make the saga a much richer and more enjoyable experience when viewed as a whole.
4) The flaws that Episodes I-III have are also flaws that Episodes IV-VI have. For example, Episode I suffers from questionable pacing. Guess what else suffers from questionable pacing. A film that no Star Wars fan is allowed to question that I'm about to question. Episode IV starts really, really slowly. It takes half the movie for them to even get off of Tatooine. Episode I has some childish comic relief that is not very amusing or helpful to the plot. Episode VI has a lot of this as well. The prequel trilogy has been criticized for world-building at the expense of story, but Episode VI spends entirely too long building the world of Jabba's Palace. This series of films is by no means perfect, but the flaws are distributed relatively evenly across the series. Just a theory, but perhaps some people don't want to see flaws in the original trilogy that they have no problem seeing in the prequel trilogy.



If anyone is interested in reading more about what some of the greater complexities across the Star Wars saga are (and for proof that George Lucas not only watched but meticulously watched the original trilogy when writing the prequels), I recommend https://www.starwarsringtheory.com. It's a great essay by someone who is better versed on this topic than I am that analyzes the plot structure of the full Star Wars saga and shows some of the intricacies behind Lucas's writing of Episodes I-III.

[jammindude]

I'm going to assume you've already seen the Red Letter Media reviews.   It's amazing how absolutely SPOT ON they are are, in spite of their primary attempt being humor.   Confused Matthew's reviews are not quite as "ha ha" but even more truthful and enlightening. 

I never thought the PT's were as good as the OT's, but I defended them anyway.   Sometimes I blamed the fact that I was simply older and not 8 any more.

But seeing facts presented truly made me realize that it wasn't JUST that I had grown up.   I wasn't my own growing up that was the "at fault" for me raising an eyebrow.     There are LOTS of scientific A/B reasons that the OT is far better than the PT's.     And you get entertained along the way, so there's that. 

But the RLM and CM reviews sum up my views on the matter.   Except that I like them in the sense that I like Manos: The Hands of Fate and watch it anyway.   I just don't take them as seriously as the others.

[Polarbear]

I saw this movie yesterday, absolutely loved it!

TFA succeeded with everything that the prequels failed at. New characters were instantly relatable. Rey, Poe and Ben/Kylo are my new favorites!

The onscreen chemistry between Ridley and Boyega/ Boyega and Isaac was a joy to watch. They managed to establish a brotherhood between Poe and Finn in less than two minutes!

Can't wait for Ep.8, and i totally believe that Rey is Luke's daughter!

[425]

@jammindude

I have not seen the Red Letter Media reviews. I don't really want to. I know that the films are not without problems. No film is without problems. I really don't want to see 4 and a half hours of films I love get nitpicked to death—as I'm sure you would not want to see your favorite movie nitpicked to death in the same way.

There are no scientific reasons that three of the original movies are better than the other three. None. Whatever complaints you want to make about I through III, you can make about IV through VI. I hate that I have to tear down IV through VI a little bit in defense of the other three, but it really is necessary, because the general perception is apparently that George Lucas could do no wrong in 1977 and then somehow by 1999 he was the worst filmmaker alive (the worst perception I could possibly understand of The Phantom Menace is that it is a mediocre action movie; I cannot comprehend comparing it to the likes of Manos—seems like just the type of hyperbole I expect from prequel haters).

Episode IV opens right up with two Imperial officers making the stupidest decision ever made in film history. In a world where robots are basically sentient and easily capable of carrying secret plans, these idiots decide not to worry about an escape pod that has no life forms aboard. And the entire movie, and the two sequels, hinges on this moronic decision by these officers.

I could make a lengthy review about how this and other flaws make A New Hope a terrible movie. I could go on about how "only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" yet they can't hit anything, or how the Death Star didn't need to slowly orbit Yavin before attacking the Rebel base, or how half the film is just exposition and couldn't they have gotten to the point a bit faster, or how the dialogue is sometimes just really stilted and cheesy, and so on, and how all of this makes A New Hope a bad film. Every movie has its flaws, but when it comes to Star Wars, we have to nitpick three of the movies to death while pretending that the other three movies don't have any flaws, when really they have most of the exact same flaws.

If RLM has a legitimate point, has a list of a few legitimate criticisms that can be boiled down into something that I can read in an hour or less, I have yet to see it. I have yet to see any indication that this is anything but a rundown of every nitpick they could possibly make.

As I said, I've seen each of these films more than ten times. Probably more than twenty. Maybe even thirty in some cases. I haven't kept count, but it's a lot. And often, I find that they reveal more of themselves to me. This time, with https://www.starwarsringtheory.com as a guide, I've really found that it's been like seeing the whole saga as it really is for the first time.

At this moment, I can say that I like The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones better than I have at any point in my life, including when I was 8 years old and saw them for the first time. This is informed by watching the whole saga with the broader structure in mind. In viewing the whole thing as one 13.5 hour film, I was really able to see a lot of the brilliance in the plot of the first two films. The issue being that you can't just view The Phantom Menace as its own thing, but as the first act of a three-act story arc along with the two films that follow it. So much is set up in The Phantom Menace that doesn't pay off until later.


Above, I summarized my views on the matter in about 300 words. Your summary of your views on the matter is a playlist of videos that total 6 hours that I have no desire or interest in watching. If you can boil down what you think are the most important criticisms of these films into something that I can read in a reasonable amount of time, I will read it. If you can't or don't want to, that's fine.

But I do not care to learn to hate movies that I love so that I can fall in line with the consensus of upset fans who want to throw rocks at the man who created the thing they worship. I certainly don't care enough to watch 6 hours of relentless criticism and, I can only imagine, nitpicking (you really can't make a 90 minute review of one movie without a lot of nitpicking).

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

[BlackInk]

First off, let me just say that not a year ago Revenge of the Sith was my favorite Star Wars movie, and I still rank it above A New Hope.

But 425, it's like you're joking with your arguments.

[jingle.boy]

Well, I haven't read the last 3 of 425s posts (waaaayyy too long), but I will address one thing about character development in the PT.  I really have no idea how you see that Lucas developed characters.  And I'll point to an interview I saw from Lucas himself during the PTs... he explicitly stated that he is a visual filmmaker, NOT a literary filmmaker.  His primary intent was to tell his movies through brilliant visuals, not the story.  He admitted he didn't write a good story (whether he didn't want to, or didn't care to, who's to say), which results in a lack of investment in the characters. I'm 100% with Jammindude that the PT is eye-candy.  I is awful (there are so many plot holes); 2 is worse (ditto on the the plot-holes, and to think that the love story b/t Anakin and Padme was the foundation for his turn to the dark-side and all the atrocities he commits in 3 is laughable); 3 is a good flick, and Lucas did a pretty good job at connecting the PT to the OT... he again stated in interviews that was his only objective with 3 - to create the bridge to the OT.

Back to TFA though.  Despite JJ taking the formula for ANH directly, is that such a bad thing?  It wasn't terribly done (sure, 425 does point out some flaws), but Ren's actions set him up as someone truly evil and to be despised, yet conflicted about it - better than ROTS ever did with Anakin.  There's lots of things still to be explored and developed for Ep 8 - the battle for power between Hux and Ren within the First Order; Snoke and Poe were interesting, but there's still a lot to tell there.  I just hope they don't replay the OT... Maz has all the makings to be the 'new' Yoda; Luke/Obi-Wan; Rey/Luke etc... I think they did enough to set it up that it won't be a replica of the OT though, despite all the similarities between this and ANH.