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Offline ToT-147

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #140 on: August 14, 2016, 07:37:40 AM »
The The Astonishing's cycle is pretty much coming to a conclusion. Contrary to the rest of their previous albums' cycles, all of the music has already been played, and they've already toured most of the countries they usually visit - only Oceania/Japan is left, I believe. Plus, the band has confirmed (in a few interviews) that they have already talked about and made decisions about what they'll do for their next album, so even they are already thinking about the next step.

Exactly.. Although I can assure you they started thinking about the next album as soon as they finished TA (or even before that, giving the fact that they knew from the beginning -probably mid or late 2014- that the music for the new album had to be in a certain way, and in the process they may have discarted some ideas only because it wouldn't fit in any passage of the story/album)..

My -strong- assumption comes from what is happening to me and my bandmates right now; we haven't yet finish the record process of our -first- album and we can't wait to make more music!.. Sometimes the structure of launching just one album (or two in a row, like DT did) represses, so to speak, music that could've been even better than the one you are recording or mastering.. And if it's happening to us, I believe is very likely to happen DT every time they conclude a cycle, or throughout it..
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #141 on: August 14, 2016, 07:50:43 AM »
Not speculation, but my hope is they'll dial down the cheese for the next one.
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Offline nikatapi

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #142 on: August 15, 2016, 01:08:52 AM »
Not speculation, but my hope is they'll dial down the cheese for the next one.

Can't disagree with that. I feel like the whole "cinematic" thing has come full circle with The Astonishing, and even though i really like the album, i hope they get to a more rock-metal vibe this time, less epicness, more rocking. And hopefully with a good production, ADTOE and DT12 had some serious flaws.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #143 on: August 15, 2016, 06:04:30 AM »
Full disclosure: I hated the last two albums. They both bored me to tears and TA just felt embarrassing and silly in the sheer quantity of cheese. I don't really consider myself a DT fan anymore as a result of the ST, which has much to do with my disappearance until now.

I much preferred ADToE and would rather that they just stick to that track. It's why I love FII even though it's a black sheep: straight rock and prog without the pretense. Same goes for Awake.
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Offline SebastianPratesi

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #144 on: August 15, 2016, 07:44:26 AM »
My -strong- assumption comes from what is happening to me and my bandmates right now; we haven't yet finish the record process of our -first- album and we can't wait to make more music!..
That's cool! When do you think you'll release it?
Also: do you plan on making CDs, or just uploading it? I would be interested in buying a physical copy.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #145 on: August 15, 2016, 08:48:01 AM »
My -strong- assumption comes from what is happening to me and my bandmates right now; we haven't yet finish the record process of our -first- album and we can't wait to make more music!..
That's cool! When do you think you'll release it?
Also: do you plan on making CDs, or just uploading it? I would be interested in buying a physical copy.

Thanks.. We think it'll be done later this year.. And we're definitely making physical copies; not sure until now if we'll upload the whole thing.. Reserved!.. :tup
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Offline red barchetta

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #146 on: August 15, 2016, 10:40:03 AM »
Not speculation, but my hope is they'll dial down the cheese for the next one.

 :tup Nice way to put it.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #147 on: August 26, 2016, 09:56:48 PM »
Full disclosure: I hated the last two albums. They both bored me to tears and TA just felt embarrassing and silly in the sheer quantity of cheese. I don't really consider myself a DT fan anymore as a result of the ST, which has much to do with my disappearance until now.

I much preferred ADToE and would rather that they just stick to that track. It's why I love FII even though it's a black sheep: straight rock and prog without the pretense. Same goes for Awake.

Exactly the same here. I kinda dropped out of DTF for the most part, I find DT's latest efforts just really bad. I put TA on today actually, and the only thing i could think was "this is astonishingly bad, to a level no previous DT album has been bad before".
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Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #148 on: August 26, 2016, 10:15:20 PM »
Full disclosure: I hated the last two albums. They both bored me to tears and TA just felt embarrassing and silly in the sheer quantity of cheese. I don't really consider myself a DT fan anymore
Same here.
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #149 on: August 27, 2016, 04:54:08 AM »
Then, why are you posting on a DT related site discussing the next album? Just to say once again how much you hated the last two albums? I guess whe had got it the many times you said it before.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #150 on: August 27, 2016, 06:50:35 AM »
Then, why are you posting on a DT related site discussing the next album? Just to say once again how much you hated the last two albums? I guess whe had got it the many times you said it before.

B.Lee

Doesn't mean I couldn't possibly like the next album if they make a few changes. I would like to like a new DT album.
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #151 on: August 27, 2016, 07:30:13 AM »
Then, why are you posting on a DT related site discussing the next album? Just to say once again how much you hated the last two albums? I guess whe had got it the many times you said it before.

B.Lee

Doesn't mean I couldn't possibly like the next album if they make a few changes. I would like to like a new DT album.

OK, fair enough. Frankly, for me, my relation to DT has been made of ups and downs ever since Octavarium. I decided to let DT a chance after BC&SL. If I hadn't liked ADToE, I would have called it quit. We can agree on that one thing : I also would like something more straight because, while I like TA despite its obvious flaws, I'm more of an Awake guy, just like you.

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Offline ToT-147

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #152 on: August 27, 2016, 09:34:00 AM »
TA is an amazing album.. I love it more each time I listen to it..

And as I said before in another thread, it blew my mind -and still does- so much, that it made me reach a point where I ask nothing more from them.. Just do whatever you want in the next album.. I'll be fine with it, even if I dislike it, thing that I find hard to happen at this stage: they have found a new zenith, the first since MM is in the band.. I love their sound nowadays, and the fact that they've, with the latest album, returned to experiment a bit (having in mind they're already a prog metal band), with new styles and kind of things they have never done before (34 tracks, more than 2 hours of music, recording with an actual orchestra and chorus for most of the songs)..

Of course I do agree, as I also stated before, that it would be nice if they do a heavier album next time.. But I don't care so much for that kind of desires or expectations anymore.. I have the wish accomplished of them making a better while experimenting album after the almost equally good one DT12 was..

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« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 09:58:06 AM by ToT-147 »
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Offline rumborak

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #153 on: August 27, 2016, 11:08:26 AM »
I don't really care much about specific "directions" they should go into. I neither care much, or even categorize, DT albums that way.

What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing. And of course TA was even more framed by the length consideration.
I feel that, and this is of course pure speculation, that if they stopped looking at the clock, they might be more willing to cull fluff, which IMHO has been a major issue with their latest efforts. They still have excellent musical ideas, but they often get drowned in a sea of stuff that, I feel, 15 years ago would have ended up on the cutting floor. Who knows, maybe that was one of MP's big contributions, to honestly tell JP and JR "nah, I'm not feeling that one. Got something else?".
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #154 on: August 27, 2016, 11:26:30 AM »
Who knows, maybe that was one of MP's big contributions, to honestly tell JP and JR "nah, I'm not feeling that one. Got something else?".

Tbh, if it is indeed the case, seeing what was left on Octavarium (to a lesser extent) and on SC and BC&SL(to a far greater extent), IMO of course, his contribution could be flawed as well.

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« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 11:38:11 AM by Bertielee »
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Offline rumborak

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #155 on: August 27, 2016, 11:40:02 AM »
Not sure I understand what you mean, BLee. Are you referring to "remaining audio time that could have fit on a CD"? Other than DT12, which was written with the specific intent of shorter songs, there has not been a DT album in the last 13 years that was below 95% of the possible audio that a CD allows. I mean, it's pretty obvious that that is deliberate on their part.
If you compare that to album lengths of say Opeth or Porcupine Tree  for example, they have wildly fluctuating album lengths, for thy obvious reason that the length was simply an outcome of the songs they had written and chosen for the album.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 11:45:48 AM by rumborak »
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #156 on: August 27, 2016, 11:45:07 AM »
If Portnoy was still in the band, I am not sure he would have agreed to letting Petrucci and Rudess write the whole thing (that whole control thing :lol), but if we can assume for the sake of argument that he would have, I think it's likely that a few of the songs would have been cut and few others would have been expanded into longer tunes with instrumental sections.  Portnoy would have probably insisted on "progging it up" a bit.  Pointless speculation, sure, but that's my feeling.

Offline Bertielee

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #157 on: August 27, 2016, 11:48:33 AM »
Not sure I understand what you mean, BLee. Are you referring to "remaining audio time that could have fit on a CD"? Other than DT12, which was written with the specific intent of shorter songs, there has not been a DT album in the last 13 years that was below 95% of the possible audio that a CD allows. I mean, it's pretty obvious that that is deliberate on their part.
If you compare that to album lengths of say Opeth or Porcupine Tree  for example, they have wildly fluctuating album lengths, for thy obvious reason that the length was simply an outcome of the songs they had written and chosen for the album.

I guess I misunderstood what you meant. I was speaking more in terms of quality.

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Offline PixelDream

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #158 on: August 27, 2016, 01:29:21 PM »
I'm pretty sure it will be better than TA. I mean, it has to be, right?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #159 on: August 27, 2016, 03:25:57 PM »
I'm pretty sure it will be better than TA. I mean, it has to be, right?

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #160 on: August 27, 2016, 04:09:10 PM »
I'm pretty sure it will be better than TA. I mean, it has to be, right?

I would sacrifice a lot of squirrels to the Dark Lord to make sure the next album would be better than The Astonishing.

Or, to bring it all down to personal tastes, if I would like the next allbum better than how I like The Astonishing which is an insane lot  :metal

Offline TAC

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #161 on: August 27, 2016, 04:25:24 PM »
If Portnoy was still in the band, I am not sure he would have agreed to letting Petrucci and Rudess write the whole thing (that whole control thing :lol), but if we can assume for the sake of argument that he would have, I think it's likely that a few of the songs would have been cut and few others would have been expanded into longer tunes with instrumental sections.  Portnoy would have probably insisted on "progging it up" a bit.  Pointless speculation, sure, but that's my feeling.

It's truth though. No way in hell MP sits out the writing process.


What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing. 

I hate to even say this, but didn't MP end up taking the blame for most of the writing "boundaries" (for lack of better term). Perhaps, it was not all on MP.
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Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #162 on: August 27, 2016, 05:25:29 PM »
Then, why are you posting on a DT related site discussing the next album? Just to say once again how much you hated the last two albums? I guess whe had got it the many times you said it before.

B.Lee
Being on a DT forum doesn't mean I can't discuss other subjects or other bands. The fact that I didn't like the last two albums at all also doesn't mean I will not be listening to their future releases.
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Offline Scar

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #163 on: August 27, 2016, 05:40:34 PM »
All I wish is that Dream Theater would just create music. As John Petrucci said that if there are multiple albums released, fans will always compare them to other albums, and I admit which I have done.

But overall, I'm content with all their albums. There are no albums that stick out like a sore thumb. We should all just appreciate anything they throw out, because if we set standards on albums, we may become really disappointed.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #164 on: August 27, 2016, 07:46:37 PM »
What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing. 

I hate to even say this, but didn't MP end up taking the blame for most of the writing "boundaries" (for lack of better term). Perhaps, it was not all on MP.

I think you guys are right, I think MP was just as much a motivating force in that approach as the others. If you look at it, it was a long process in the making, and it started somewhere around SDOIT when they no longer produced demos, but instead wrote straight in the studio. I think that slowly shifted their mindset towards directly producing the end product, and thus looking at the overall audio clock.
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Offline Mosh

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #165 on: August 27, 2016, 08:36:04 PM »
I don't really care much about specific "directions" they should go into. I neither care much, or even categorize, DT albums that way.

What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing. And of course TA was even more framed by the length consideration.
I feel that, and this is of course pure speculation, that if they stopped looking at the clock, they might be more willing to cull fluff, which IMHO has been a major issue with their latest efforts. They still have excellent musical ideas, but they often get drowned in a sea of stuff that, I feel, 15 years ago would have ended up on the cutting floor. Who knows, maybe that was one of MP's big contributions, to honestly tell JP and JR "nah, I'm not feeling that one. Got something else?".
I have been thinking this since ADTOE. I mostly like what DT has done since MP left but it's clear to me that he left a void in the editing department. There just doesn't seem to be the same attention to form and arrangement that there was when MP was in the band. Illumination Theory is probably the most blatant example of that, but there are also more subtle moments that make me think "this would've been different if MP was in the band".
It seems like they didn't change their creative process at all when MP left which is fine, but at the same time nobody stepped up to fill his role. So that aspect of their music is just not there anymore.

This isn't a bring back MP post btw, just an observation of their recent writing.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #166 on: August 28, 2016, 05:37:05 AM »
Not sure I understand what you mean, BLee. Are you referring to "remaining audio time that could have fit on a CD"? Other than DT12, which was written with the specific intent of shorter songs, there has not been a DT album in the last 13 years that was below 95% of the possible audio that a CD allows. I mean, it's pretty obvious that that is deliberate on their part.
If you compare that to album lengths of say Opeth or Porcupine Tree  for example, they have wildly fluctuating album lengths, for thy obvious reason that the length was simply an outcome of the songs they had written and chosen for the album.

And it's been nearly 20 years since they've had an outsider producer. Yes, I get it, they're an established and "seasoned" band, but the last two (and a half) albums have confirmed for me that they sorely need one. I have been thinking about this in the context of Frost*'s own recently released album, which I've loved and probably played to death by now. AFAIK they don't have an outside producer, but they really don't need one since that's Jem's day job. But the songs came out sounding polished, fresher, and - dare I say it - somewhat radio-friendly. If only DT wasn't so afraid of "selling out," they could put out their first 10/10 since SFAM.
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #167 on: August 28, 2016, 06:28:13 AM »
The biggest problem I have with Dt's music ever since SC, it's that it's become clinical, if I may say so. It lacks life, for lack of a better term. And I completely agree with the outside producer thing, it could offer a new perspective on their work. Wouldn't be against a Kevin Shirley return for that matter.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #168 on: August 28, 2016, 07:32:05 AM »
The addition of MM definitely pushed them even further into that direction, that's for sure. MP by no means is the be-all-end-all of drumming (not by a long shot), but there was always something off the cuff, visceral about his playing, and it added a crucial element to DT's already rather clinical approach to music. JR is very clinical too, and now with MM, I feel JP is the last man standing who has a somewhat "natural" approach to his instrument. And live, the fact that they now play everything to click, is another step into the clinical direction.
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #169 on: August 28, 2016, 08:26:58 AM »
The addition of MM definitely pushed them even further into that direction, that's for sure. MP by no means is the be-all-end-all of drumming (not by a long shot), but there was always something off the cuff, visceral about his playing, and it added a crucial element to DT's already rather clinical approach to music. JR is very clinical too, and now with MM, I feel JP is the last man standing who has a somewhat "natural" approach to his instrument. And live, the fact that they now play everything to click, is another step into the clinical direction.

I have to agree with you on that one, Rumby. While I don't miss MP's personality nor his singing at all, I miss his more organic playing. But even then, MP was still in the band when their music became kinda cold for me. So, I don't know.

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Offline red barchetta

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #170 on: August 28, 2016, 09:04:37 PM »
What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing. 

I hate to even say this, but didn't MP end up taking the blame for most of the writing "boundaries" (for lack of better term). Perhaps, it was not all on MP.

I think you guys are right, I think MP was just as much a motivating force in that approach as the others. If you look at it, it was a long process in the making, and it started somewhere around SDOIT when they no longer produced demos, but instead wrote straight in the studio. I think that slowly shifted their mindset towards directly producing the end product, and thus looking at the overall audio clock.

I have the feeling that Mike Mangini's input to the writing of songs, production, sounds is basically nil.  The least I can say is that it doesn't work as well as I was expecting. For me, Portnoy departure has not been a good thing.
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Offline nikatapi

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #171 on: August 29, 2016, 03:12:28 AM »
The addition of MM definitely pushed them even further into that direction, that's for sure. MP by no means is the be-all-end-all of drumming (not by a long shot), but there was always something off the cuff, visceral about his playing, and it added a crucial element to DT's already rather clinical approach to music. JR is very clinical too, and now with MM, I feel JP is the last man standing who has a somewhat "natural" approach to his instrument. And live, the fact that they now play everything to click, is another step into the clinical direction.

Kind of agree on that, but i think there is also the factor of production, and it seems that MM despite being an awesome drummer doesn't really have a complete control or idea about his sound, which led to a very cold and clinical sounding kit. I'm sure most of us who have been to a concert can agree that he sounds so much better and dynamic live.

But, despite the (serious imo) production issues, MM's playing is quite different in terms of feeling the groove and accenting the time signatures. MP was and still is relying to a limited set of signature tricks, but he was always creative in doing so and keeping things interesting. MM while playing complicated stuff he does so in a way that sounds very strict. Especially his hi-hat playing and sound is very different and it was something that MP was great about, very tight sound and lots of little details on even simple rhythms, and MM has a quite different approach (it's a matter of taste not a case of better or worse) that is evident in the way he plays the MP songs. Sometimes it feels right while different (Trial Of Tears on BTFW) sometimes it feels weird and maybe not so tight (6:00, About To Crash).

Offline Art

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #172 on: August 29, 2016, 08:06:22 AM »
I hope for FII part 2.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #173 on: August 29, 2016, 09:43:52 AM »
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Offline Chino

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Re: DT14 speculation thread
« Reply #174 on: August 29, 2016, 10:01:01 AM »
Full disclosure: I hated the last two albums. They both bored me to tears and TA just felt embarrassing and silly in the sheer quantity of cheese. I don't really consider myself a DT fan anymore as a result of the ST, which has much to do with my disappearance until now.

I much preferred ADToE and would rather that they just stick to that track. It's why I love FII even though it's a black sheep: straight rock and prog without the pretense. Same goes for Awake.

Exactly the same here. I kinda dropped out of DTF for the most part, I find DT's latest efforts just really bad. I put TA on today actually, and the only thing i could think was "this is astonishingly bad, to a level no previous DT album has been bad before".

I still listen almost daily on my 1.5 hour drive home from work and repeatedly think to myself "man, this might be DT's best album to date".