Author Topic: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities  (Read 1674 times)

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Offline Calvin6s

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40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities



The combined description of the least tolerant amongst us:
Non-White Democrat Millennial Women with the education of High School or less
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Online portnoy311

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2015, 07:44:06 PM »
...So the people most likely to be victims of that speech?


It's obviously a bad idea and won't ever fly.

Offline orcus116

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2015, 08:00:03 PM »
This is the ultimate gray area since the definition of offensive seems to have been watered down so much that anyone of note is better off shutting up than saying anything lest they get a lawsuit up the ass or get publicly character assassinated by the mouth breathing headline skimmers. You get the too big to topple person like Trump who seems immune to any actual/pseudo slandering but for the average person with a brain anything that may seem like slander, however logical and factually correct, it's best to just stay silent. Personally I'm all for saying whatever the fuck anyone wants but it just doesn't seem like the general consensus nowadays.

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2015, 08:04:04 PM »
It's literally the majority position of every category that people should be allowed to say these things publicly. We're also way ahead of Europe. I wouldn't worry about this right going away.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2015, 02:27:20 AM »
You say victim.  I say oppressor.
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Offline Chino

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2015, 05:07:00 AM »
I'd like to see that millennial group broken up into two age groups; 18-24 and 24-34, and then see those poll results. Let's be real, most 18 year olds barely know what freedom of speech even means or why we have it.

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2015, 10:00:33 AM »
Very true Chino.

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Offline Genowyn

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2015, 11:27:51 AM »
I'm sorta split on this.

On the one hand, free speech already has limitations. I can't yell fire in a crowded theater, I can't slander someone, and as far as I know hate speech is already illegal here in Canada, not 100% sure on that.

On the other hand, free speech I guess?

Ultimately I don't think it should be illegal for people to use offensive terminology, but I also don't think I should have to associate with or ever take seriously someone who does.

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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2015, 01:41:50 PM »
This isn't even about simply free speech.  It is about bullying off of what quite frequently is perceived hate speech.

And how is "minority" defined.  If you are in a store where you become a minority of one, then I guess you can start hurling offensive language without repercussion, while you can claim a law has been broken the minute you perceive something was offensive.  Where I'm from, racism is pretty rampant, but not from the race you'd think.
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Online portnoy311

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2015, 07:08:05 PM »
In literally every subset of the population listed the majority agrees with you.

Offline orcus116

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2015, 07:13:47 PM »
While true the accounts of people being ousted from their jobs/asked to step down recently for not saying/doing actual racist/offensive things despite the response claiming such is incredibly disturbing. It's a trend that needs to get squashed immediately.

Online portnoy311

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2015, 07:15:38 PM »
Freedom of speech is freedom from the government. Not your employer. I don't know what examples you're talking about, but that is not outside the realm of legality for a company to fire someone for speech, nor is it a new phenomenon.

Offline Lucien

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2015, 07:19:09 PM »
Honestly I'm not surprised by the chart at all. I think it's sort of an extension of people against racism and homophobia (young people). People hate hate.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2015, 07:22:33 PM »
Freedom of speech is freedom from the government. Not your employer. I don't know what examples you're talking about, but that is not outside the realm of legality for a company to fire someone for speech, nor is it a new phenomenon.

Teachers/school presidents at colleges that have been circulating the news over the last few weeks. I do agree that the employers take over so there is a snag in my argument (which is reality vs gut) but it's frustrating to see jobs lost for purely PR reasons and the "you need to be a scapegoat" mindset when a very small faction makes headlines for faux outrage at something they have little to know knowledge about.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2015, 07:41:57 PM »
The idea that it is just PR isn't exactly right.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2015, 07:42:58 PM »
Care to elaborate?

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2015, 08:02:26 PM »
Employment does have sex, gender, race laws that are definitely harsher (as in exist) over non-employment situations.  So the idea that the employer is just doing out of irrational fear (PR) and not fear of a lawsuit (laws by government).  So your original example works just fine.

And it isn't just the employer.  When I did some warehouse work while I was going to college, the two females would complain if the guys didn't pull their larger orders (and then give all the credit to the females).  Standing up to the abuse never worked well for the dude refusing to do their work for them (which made it look like they weren't working paperwork wise).

I had the audacity to suggest that people that can't pull heavy item orders shouldn't be given heavy item orders.  "Are you saying girls can't do what guys do?"  Uh, no.  They are saying that.  You are saying that.

Although I had already charted my way to a higher paying position, it was also my way to make it out of that legally created nonsense.

There's examples like this al the time.  There is always somebody willing to abuse a law based off offense.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2015, 08:32:16 AM »
Honestly I'm not surprised by the chart at all. I think it's sort of an extension of people against racism and homophobia (young people). People hate hate.

Which is an oxymoron, because it results in hating only some "hate" and not "all hate".  Just that "hate" that isn't convenient for you.

It's more an indication of things we've talked about elsewhere here: the abdication of responsibility by our "millenials", whereby there is no personal accountability.  It's all "the other guy".  There was a great skit (well, it was appropriate; I don't know if it was "great") on the first episode of "Saturday Night Live" called "The Millenials" that captured this perfectly.  There was great (and this one was great) Doonesbury this weekend (Sunday) that captured it as well.

"Tolerance" doesn't mean "getting rid of everything you don't like".  "Tolerance" means letting others live as they see fit, and doing the same for yourself.  That by definition means there will be unpleasantries.  "Hating hate" is just a copout to say "MY hate is okay, but not yours!".  That's not "tolerance".  That's "bigotry". 

Offline Lucien

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2015, 10:23:23 AM »
"Hating hate" is just a copout to say "MY hate is okay, but not yours!".  That's not "tolerance".  That's "bigotry".

I don't really get this. Young people hate homophobia nowadays, usually. Is that hate okay? I mean, I think so. Is it bigotry to say that hatred of homophobia is acceptable? But I don't think it's really "hatred" of homophobia, anyways. I just said "People hate hate." as a way to reduce "People don't accept hate as much anymore." Most people don't accept homophobia anymore. Most people don't accept racism anymore. Is not accepting racism and homophobia "bigoted"?

"Tolerance" doesn't mean "getting rid of everything you don't like".  "Tolerance" means letting others live as they see fit, and doing the same for yourself.  That by definition means there will be unpleasantries.

Not everyone wants racist and homophobic people to exist. As of now we might be letting those people live as they want, but, as this thread discusses, I'm not surprised at all people want those people silenced. We simply aren't tolerant of racism and homophobia. We're bigots to bigots, I guess.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2015, 11:46:01 AM »
"Hating hate" is just a copout to say "MY hate is okay, but not yours!".  That's not "tolerance".  That's "bigotry".

I don't really get this. Young people hate homophobia nowadays, usually. Is that hate okay? I mean, I think so. Is it bigotry to say that hatred of homophobia is acceptable? But I don't think it's really "hatred" of homophobia, anyways. I just said "People hate hate." as a way to reduce "People don't accept hate as much anymore." Most people don't accept homophobia anymore. Most people don't accept racism anymore. Is not accepting racism and homophobia "bigoted"?

"Tolerance" doesn't mean "getting rid of everything you don't like".  "Tolerance" means letting others live as they see fit, and doing the same for yourself.  That by definition means there will be unpleasantries.

Not everyone wants racist and homophobic people to exist. As of now we might be letting those people live as they want, but, as this thread discusses, I'm not surprised at all people want those people silenced. We simply aren't tolerant of racism and homophobia. We're bigots to bigots, I guess.

Isn't that the point thought? Everyone should be able to believe what ever they want. The issue becomes when someone tries to force their views on others and eliminate the views of those who don't agree with them. This is the hypocrisy of our country today. Watch the current season of South Park. They are hammering this point home. Honestly, in my 31 years of life, this is the first time where I feel fearful of the future of our country.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2015, 12:18:18 PM »
Isn't that the point thought? Everyone should be able to believe what ever they want. The issue becomes when someone tries to force their views on others and eliminate the views of those who don't agree with them. This is the hypocrisy of our country today. Watch the current season of South Park. They are hammering this point home. Honestly, in my 31 years of life, this is the first time where I feel fearful of the future of our country.

Really? Everyone should be able to believe anything they want?

Offline Chino

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2015, 12:26:32 PM »
Isn't that the point thought? Everyone should be able to believe what ever they want. The issue becomes when someone tries to force their views on others and eliminate the views of those who don't agree with them. This is the hypocrisy of our country today. Watch the current season of South Park. They are hammering this point home. Honestly, in my 31 years of life, this is the first time where I feel fearful of the future of our country.

Really? Everyone should be able to believe anything they want?

Yeah. That's the cool thing about being a human. Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. Believing and putting into practice are two very different things. I believe this country would be a better place without Mitch McConnell. There's nothing wrong with me believing that. That doesn't mean I have the right to shoot him in the face.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2015, 12:42:33 PM »
Isn't that the point thought? Everyone should be able to believe what ever they want. The issue becomes when someone tries to force their views on others and eliminate the views of those who don't agree with them. This is the hypocrisy of our country today. Watch the current season of South Park. They are hammering this point home. Honestly, in my 31 years of life, this is the first time where I feel fearful of the future of our country.

Really? Everyone should be able to believe anything they want?

Yeah. That's the cool thing about being a human. Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. Believing and putting into practice are two very different things. I believe this country would be a better place without Mitch McConnell. There's nothing wrong with me believing that. That doesn't mean I have the right to shoot him in the face.

Yeah, that's the entire point. As Americans we believe that you should be able to believe anything you want, but that that doesn't necessarily translate to action. e.g. you can believe all you want that a man and a young boy should be able to enter into a romantic relationship if they're both consenting, but as soon as you do anything to act on that belief, we lock you up forever.

The argument for censoring "offensive speech" comes from the same place. The argument is, "you can believe whatever you want about minorities, but vocalizing those feelings is damaging". Saying the words is the action that we shouldn't allow in this case -- or so the argument goes.

Here's the disclaimer: I don't agree with this argument myself. I find it pretty silly, especially in the context of a college campus. But this isn't the silly part of the argument. You can't just freeze up and insist you have the right to say whatever you want in the face of millennials who believe this stuff. Your counterargument has to be more nuanced than that.

Offline Lucien

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2015, 12:49:50 PM »
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3ty7ee/russia_bans_scientology/

relevant, look at those upvotes, pretty massive for reddit
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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2015, 09:21:55 PM »
Scientology also isn't recognized as a religion in Germany. I know a lot of it is the level of organized crime involved in the "church's" organization, and how it's basically seen as a scheme to brainwash people out of their money instead of an actual religion.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2015, 08:14:36 AM »
"Hating hate" is just a copout to say "MY hate is okay, but not yours!".  That's not "tolerance".  That's "bigotry".

I don't really get this. Young people hate homophobia nowadays, usually. Is that hate okay? I mean, I think so. Is it bigotry to say that hatred of homophobia is acceptable? But I don't think it's really "hatred" of homophobia, anyways. I just said "People hate hate." as a way to reduce "People don't accept hate as much anymore." Most people don't accept homophobia anymore. Most people don't accept racism anymore. Is not accepting racism and homophobia "bigoted"?

As long as it's your hate.  You can hate homophobes, but can I hate homos?   (I say that to make a point, I hope you know; I don't refer to our homosexual friends as "homos" in regular conversation). 

And to more directly answer your point (which is a good one, don't misunderstand me) it depends on how that "non-acceptance" is handled.   There's a lot of "hate-shaming" (is that what the kids are calling it these days?) that is stifling opinion.    It's where the line is between thought and action, and where the line is between option and obligation.  Kim Davis had no standing to do what she did.  That is unacceptable.   She is unquestionably a bigot.   But she was ACTING in contravention to the law and established requirements of her position.   If I THINK like her (which I don't, by the way; she's the worst example of "America" today) why does that deserve or merit your "hate"?  Aren't you just judging me on my ideas and beliefs?  How is that any different than judging me on my skin or sexual preference?


Quote
Not everyone wants racist and homophobic people to exist. As of now we might be letting those people live as they want, but, as this thread discusses, I'm not surprised at all people want those people silenced. We simply aren't tolerant of racism and homophobia. We're bigots to bigots, I guess.

So who gets to make that call?  Why is your bigotry warranted and someone else's isn't?  As long as I'm not actively prejudicing you - say, I'm not making hiring decisions based on the trait we're talking about, or I'm not choosing who to sell my wedding cakes to - why does my thought not merit the same protections and respect that yours do?   (I'm using these pronouns purposefully to make it so that you don't think I am attacking you; I have my prejudices like anyone else, but they are decidedly NOT racial or sexual in nature).  My signature on another board is pretty appropriate here:  "A strong democracy is how it deals with the most unsavory of ideas." 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2015, 09:03:34 AM »
Everyone should be entitled to think and say whatever they want.

Which doesn't mean that there are no repercussions for that belief or speech. 

But there should be no LEGAL repercussions.  That's what the First Amendment is all about.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2015, 01:48:39 PM »
Everyone should be entitled to think and say whatever they want.

Which doesn't mean that there are no repercussions for that belief or speech. 

But there should be no LEGAL repercussions.  That's what the First Amendment is all about.

I agree with all of that, and have written as much before.   But it goes a tad further than that; the repercussions have to be reasonable and in line with the speech.  Does the store owner that refuses to put a gay-themed message on a wedding cake - legally his right - REALLY have to be shamed on national social media?   

Just because I think or suspect you to be a bigot, doesn't give me the right to go nuclear on you.  Part of the notion of the social contract regarding rights is that I have to RESPECT yours even if I don't agree with them.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2015, 01:52:48 PM »
I don't see where anyone has to respect anyone else's rights.  I would see that as a right itself, as long as I don't infringe on anyone else's rights.
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Offline Chino

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2015, 01:55:25 PM »
Everyone should be entitled to think and say whatever they want.

Which doesn't mean that there are no repercussions for that belief or speech. 

But there should be no LEGAL repercussions.  That's what the First Amendment is all about.

I agree with all of that, and have written as much before.   But it goes a tad further than that; the repercussions have to be reasonable and in line with the speech.  Does the store owner that refuses to put a gay-themed message on a wedding cake - legally his right - REALLY have to be shamed on national social media?   


Is that legally his right though? Sure, he owns the store, but the infrastructure that powers his bakery and supplies it with safe water comes from the tax payer. The police he may one day have to call are funded by the tax payer. The DOT crews that allow customers to get to his business in the winter months are funded by the tax payer. That owner, whether he likes it or not, attributes at least some of his success to the tax payers, some of whom might be gay. If they are in one way or another funding that guy's success, I feel like they should have some kind of right to not be refused. Now, if the baker we're talking about is the one who refused to make the wedding cake but offered to make them literally anything else in their catalog, I'm kind of on the fence with that one. I don't know. It's tough.

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2015, 01:58:56 PM »
Everyone should be entitled to think and say whatever they want.

Which doesn't mean that there are no repercussions for that belief or speech. 

But there should be no LEGAL repercussions.  That's what the First Amendment is all about.

I agree with all of that, and have written as much before.   But it goes a tad further than that; the repercussions have to be reasonable and in line with the speech.  Does the store owner that refuses to put a gay-themed message on a wedding cake - legally his right - REALLY have to be shamed on national social media?   


Is that legally his right though? Sure, he owns the store, but the infrastructure that powers his bakery and supplies it with safe water comes from the tax payer. The police he may one day have to call are funded by the tax payer. The DOT crews that allow customers to get to his business in the winter months are funded by the tax payer. That owner, whether he likes it or not, attributes at least some of his success to the tax payers, some of whom might be gay. If they are in one way or another funding that guy's success, I feel like they should have some kind of right to not be refused. Now, if the baker we're talking about is the one who refused to make the wedding cake but offered to make them literally anything else in their catalog, I'm kind of on the fence with that one. I don't know. It's tough.

I would think that there are rules, perhaps withing the law, code, or business license, that bounds the business owner to not discriminate against protected classes or certain groups.  I have no problem with that.
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Offline Chino

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2015, 07:12:00 AM »
The people that raised this generation are the fuck ups.

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2015, 07:43:05 AM »
My friends and I were talking about every generation laments the younger generations and cries how it's the end of civilization. But an interesting thing we discussed is how it seemed to skip a generation this time. We found that it's really the boomers that are opposed to the millennial and that gen x has really just become complacent. What are your thoughts?

Offline Chino

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Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2015, 07:56:05 AM »
It's tough to say. I think the boomers and generation X had way more in common than people from my generation and the kids being born today. It'd say both are equally responsible.

The millennials didn't vote in the people who made corporations more important than people.
The millennials didn't allow people into office that turned drug use into a tax draining, cartel fueling epidemic.
The millennials didn't allow our prisons to become privatized.
The millennials didn't ask to be rewarded for simply participating
The millennials didn't bring the TV into the kitchen during family dinner
The millennials didn't ask to be born into an era where a year of college cost what four did for our parents
The millennials didn't ask to be born into a world of globalization with people in other countries working for slave wages
The millennials didn't ask our parents to buy $700K homes on $60K a year salaries
The millennials didn't turn this culture into a consumer culture
The millennials didn't dream up bullshit like Black Friday
The millennials didn't destroy the values of this country, our parents did.

The conditions created and the policies put into place under the baby boomers is what destroyed this economy and ultimately this country. The ripple effect took a few decades to really manifest into what we have today. Millennials are stuck trying to claw their way out of the rubble.