Author Topic: What is going on in Paris?  (Read 4531 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2015, 08:51:35 AM »
I said Friday night that I suspected the French would handle this much better than we did.

France's state of emergency may last months
Hollande to propose changes to constitution such as increased surveillance and stripping citizenship amid safety threat.


What were you saying?
I was saying that I suspected they'd handle it better, although I wasn't real crazy about Hollande's "we're at war" rhetoric as it sounded just like ours. What I still hope is that the French people have the balls to not sell themselves out the same way we did. When we did what he's proposing, nobody gave a second thought to creating a surveillance state. We just did it and patted ourselves on the back when it was done. I'll wait and see if the French give it a little more consideration. Hopefully they'll demonstrate a bit more courage and sanity.
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Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2015, 09:03:14 AM »
It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?

*snip*

I know that there have been many civilian casualties as a result of drone strikes, and I don't love all aspects of the program, but this is basically the only option without putting US soldiers in harms way.
Ah, The Bravery of Being Out of Range. I've got no problem using targeted drone strikes in plenty of the situations we do. I do have a problem with treating the whole thing as some heroic act, or saying that the people we're knocking off have no business calling us pussies for doing it.

I'd rather win a war by being a pussy than lose while trying to look brave. Also, not having ground troops means less gear behind to fall into enemy hands. If ISIS had access to this kind of technology, or any or the worlds' other military for that matter, they'd be all over it. The objective in war is to destroy your enemy while suffering as few casualties as possible. We've simply taken it to the next level. There's no nobility in sending 20 soldiers into a situation and risking their lives when this option is available. It'd be like sending in someone to kill a target with a handgun rather than having a capable sniper take them out from a half mile away.

It's ugly, I'll give you that, but I'd rather see these things shot out of the sky over F16's or gunner ships with Americans on them.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 09:21:07 AM by Chino »

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2015, 09:26:02 AM »
Preaching to the choir, lads. I get it and I agree with it. Just don't treat it as heroic and don't get pissy when the guys on the other side rightly question your manliness. There are plenty of highly relative things in a situation such as this, and one man's badass is another man's chickenshit.
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Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2015, 09:27:08 AM »

Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2015, 09:41:43 AM »
Preaching to the choir, lads. I get it and I agree with it. Just don't treat it as heroic and don't get pissy when the guys on the other side rightly question your manliness. There are plenty of highly relative things in a situation such as this, and one man's badass is another man's chickenshit.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but who cares what ISIS thinks or if they call us pussies for using drones? 

I'd rather win a war by being a pussy than lose while trying to look brave.

That's what I am feeling. 

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2015, 09:44:02 AM »
Preaching to the choir, lads. I get it and I agree with it. Just don't treat it as heroic and don't get pissy when the guys on the other side rightly question your manliness. There are plenty of highly relative things in a situation such as this, and one man's badass is another man's chickenshit.

Whose manliness? Except for the actual kids we send out to harm's way, all wars are fought by proxy. Governments send the military to do their bidding, generals order them around from relative safety, and the general everyday public like you and me have nothing to do with it all. I want Daesh to be killed and wiped off the map. Sending some of our 18 year old kids to get killed in the process so we can feel better about being "badass" is unnecessary and pointless.

Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2015, 09:55:48 AM »
Preaching to the choir, lads. I get it and I agree with it. Just don't treat it as heroic and don't get pissy when the guys on the other side rightly question your manliness. There are plenty of highly relative things in a situation such as this, and one man's badass is another man's chickenshit.

Whose manliness? Except for the actual kids we send out to harm's way, all wars are fought by proxy. Governments send the military to do their bidding, generals order them around from relative safety, and the general everyday public like you and me have nothing to do with it all. I want Daesh to be killed and wiped off the map. Sending some of our 18 year old kids to get killed in the process so we can feel better about being "badass" is unnecessary and pointless.

However, I believe troops on the ground will be necessary to wipe them off the map, minus going nuclear which while sounds fun and all and is easy to say "nuke em off the planet" realistically that cannot be on the table.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2015, 10:00:43 AM »
You guys are arguing with nobody. I've defended our use of drone strikes a couple of times already. I just think there's a lot of hypocrisy from people about how we view the various players.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2015, 10:03:57 AM »
Al Jazeera Headline: "ISIS calls the west a pussy for using drones"

Just read this about Anonymous and their war against ISIS as well, but this quote sounds like the same quote above

"The #Anonymous hackers threatened in new video release that they will carry out a major hack operation on the Islamic state (idiots)"

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/hackers-vs-terrorists-isis-says-anonymous-idiots-declaring-134503807.html

Let's call them pussies and idiots for using their tech against us  :lol

Offline Nekov

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2015, 11:32:31 AM »
It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?



I know that there have been many civilian casualties as a result of drone strikes, and I don't love all aspects of the program, but this is basically the only option without putting US soldiers in harms way.

Yeah, but by putting soldiers out of harms way you are increasing the chances of collateral damage and innocent people being killed. Soldiers are prepared for war and should be the ones in place dealing with all of this.
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Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2015, 12:46:41 PM »
And plenty of innocent civilians are killed when we start shelling villages with tanks and mortars as well. I'm sure trigger happy, adrenaline filled soldiers accidentally kill innocents all the time. Ground troops also allow our enemies to take civilians as hostages and we leave behind equipment that can lead to countless more civilian deaths. Civilians will never be spared in these scenarios. I don't like it, but that's war. It sucks and it's extremely unfortunate that we as a species still have to partake in it in this day and age. Every war the United States has ever fought has seen huge numbers of civilian casualties. It's not something exclusive and new to the drone program.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 12:51:48 PM by Chino »

Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2015, 12:54:48 PM »
And plenty of innocent civilians are killed when we start shelling villages with tanks and mortars as well. I'm sure trigger happy, adrenaline filled soldiers accidentally kill innocents all the time. I don't like it, but that's war. It sucks and it's extremely unfortunate that we as a species still have to partake in it in this day and age. Every war the United States has ever fought has seen huge numbers of civilian casualties. It's not something exclusive and new to the drone program.

Not to sound like I am not caring or anything like that, but if its not our drones killing innocents accidentally on pursuit to killing the bad guys, those bad guys in ISIS are going to kill the innocents at even higher numbers.   Sadly there is no way around death in war.  I dont think anyone wants to be in this position, but it is where we are.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2015, 01:11:58 PM »
I reckon at the end of the day drones limit civvy casualties. They tend to be used on a far more targeted basis, and when you're just trying to explode one person in particular it's best for everybody. Moreover, drone strikes tend to happen more out in the Styx than within populated areas. Lastly, since you've got no skin in the game you tend to be more patient and less fearful. All of these stack up so that you're going to be creating fewer bad guys, which is always the concern when using military means against a social movement. 

The flip-side is that we also tend to be more cavalier about when we barbecue somebody. There have been several examples that were outright bullshit. When warfare becomes safe and easy it's all to easy to avail yourself of the martial option. This represents a whole new slew of problems, but more on a philosophical level. War is supposed to be ugly, ugly business. We've made it nice and painless for our side and that just doesn't really lend itself well to being the good guy we like to think we are.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2015, 01:54:17 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/17/france-russia-pummel-isis-stronghold-as-critics-blast-us-rules-engagement/

Quote
U.S. rules of engagement and the overarching desire to minimize collateral damage are holding back the true force of U.S. air power, while Paris and Moscow have taken off the gloves following the bombing of a Russian airliner and Friday's horrific attacks in the French capital, according to one retired four-star general.

A lot of good info in that article about how ISIS hides in with the civilians because they know the US will not use a drone strike in that situation.

Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2015, 01:57:26 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/17/france-russia-pummel-isis-stronghold-as-critics-blast-us-rules-engagement/

Quote
U.S. rules of engagement and the overarching desire to minimize collateral damage are holding back the true force of U.S. air power, while Paris and Moscow have taken off the gloves following the bombing of a Russian airliner and Friday's horrific attacks in the French capital, according to one retired four-star general.

A lot of good info in that article about how ISIS hides in with the civilians because they know the US will not use a drone strike in that situation.

I'd be curious to see our response if something happened on US soil. If a Paris-like event is carried out in the states, I don't see us being anywhere near as reserved as we are now.

Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2015, 02:01:33 PM »
About what?

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2015, 02:02:35 PM »
About what?
Letting Russia beat their ass.
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Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2015, 02:03:29 PM »
About what?
Letting Russia beat their ass.

Seeing as they took down a Russian plane, I believe Russia has every right.

Offline Calvin6s

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I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2015, 02:19:30 PM »
I've got no problem with the US using a limited ROE and I've got no problem with Russia, France or any other nation bombing them off the face of the Earth. In fact I think it's a fantastic arrangement. I wasn't aware that Donald said anything of the sort, but I've been on the train for quite some time. Let somebody else be the Great Satan for a while.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2015, 02:21:58 PM »
Stadium in Hanover evacuated before Germany  Netherlands game because of credible bomb threats.

Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2015, 02:29:10 PM »
I've got no problem with the US using a limited ROE and I've got no problem with Russia, France or any other nation bombing them off the face of the Earth. In fact I think it's a fantastic arrangement. I wasn't aware that Donald said anything of the sort, but I've been on the train for quite some time. Let somebody else be the Great Satan for a while.

This is how I feel as well.  France and Russia have good reason to go further into this war now so let them have it. 

I'd be curious to see our response if something happened on US soil. If a Paris-like event is carried out in the states, I don't see us being anywhere near as reserved as we are now.

It wasn't long after 9/11 that we had troops on the ground, I think if ISIS did something like Paris on US soil I would expect similar results. 

Stadium in Hanover evacuated before Germany  Netherlands game because of credible bomb threats.

They just evacuated our LA data center because a suspicious package was found next to the US Post Office that shares the same building as the data center.  Im not saying none of these are legit threats, but there is definitely a heightened sense of awareness right now.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #92 on: November 17, 2015, 02:38:53 PM »
I've got no problem with the US using a limited ROE and I've got no problem with Russia, France or any other nation bombing them off the face of the Earth. In fact I think it's a fantastic arrangement. I wasn't aware that Donald said anything of the sort, but I've been on the train for quite some time. Let somebody else be the Great Satan for a while.

Trump basically said (prior to the France attack) that we should just let Russia (right when they made the announcement they were stepping up big time in Syria) do our work for us.  He was laughed at and told he didn't know what he was talking about.  Last debate, Jeb Bush compared it to playing a board game like Monopoly (his attempt to cast Trump as the Monopoly man while totally missing the obvious Risk comparison).

But the greatest defense he put forward was in an interview with O'Reilly.  Bill said something like "You want Russia to take control of Syria" to which Trump responded "do you want us to take control of Syria?"

It was pretty good.

The funny thing is, Trump isn't the one playing the board game.  Most are against Russia taking too big a role because "that should be us" so we can color in Syria as our latest rival turned friend (fake friend).  That's board game mentality.  Trump actually is thinking more long term.  Responsibility for Syria after ISIS and Assad are gone.  <shudder>  At least he can look to an end game and decide "wait.  If that is where this is leading, then pass."
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #93 on: November 17, 2015, 02:50:08 PM »
I've got no problem with the US using a limited ROE and I've got no problem with Russia, France or any other nation bombing them off the face of the Earth. In fact I think it's a fantastic arrangement. I wasn't aware that Donald said anything of the sort, but I've been on the train for quite some time. Let somebody else be the Great Satan for a while.

Trump basically said (prior to the France attack) that we should just let Russia (right when they made the announcement they were stepping up big time in Syria) do our work for us.  He was laughed at and told he didn't know what he was talking about.  Last debate, Jeb Bush compared it to playing a board game like Monopoly (his attempt to cast Trump as the Monopoly man while totally missing the obvious Risk comparison).

But the greatest defense he put forward was in an interview with O'Reilly.  Bill said something like "You want Russia to take control of Syria" to which Trump responded "do you want us to take control of Syria?"

It was pretty good.

The funny thing is, Trump isn't the one playing the board game.  Most are against Russia taking too big a role because "that should be us" so we can color in Syria as our latest rival turned friend (fake friend).  That's board game mentality.  Trump actually is thinking more long term.  Responsibility for Syria after ISIS and Assad are gone.  <shudder>  At least he can look to an end game and decide "wait.  If that is where this is leading, then pass."

I agree with that. At the same time, wasn't Donald rattling the sabre about how we should be eliminating ISIL right damn now!

It wasn't long after 9/11 that we had troops on the ground
And that was quite impressive.  That war is the blueprint.
The first few weeks certainly were. About a month or so in it became the blueprint for how to fuck everything up American style.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #94 on: November 17, 2015, 03:02:25 PM »
It wasn't long after 9/11 that we had troops on the ground
And that was quite impressive.  That war is the blueprint.
The first few weeks certainly were. About a month or so in it became the blueprint for how to fuck everything up American style.

True and true.

I think if ISIS did something like Paris on US soil I would expect similar results. 
Why?  The only way I see anything significant happening is if poll numbers tanked from a weak response.

If Americans were killed, just like in 9/11, there would be a huge uprour about how we aren't doing enough and how we want revenge blah blah blah.  Similar to the response of 9/11, the one thing that event did was unite the people of this country against the terrorist.  Granted, if your point is that you think Obama would be weak in his response, than I may agree with you in that aspect.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #95 on: November 17, 2015, 03:25:58 PM »
]I agree with that. At the same time, wasn't Donald rattling the sabre about how we should be eliminating ISIL right damn now!
I originally talked about how in some ways he aligns with my duality on conflict.  Don't go looking for it, but if say you are going to do it, then don't do it without the intent to finish it. 

Trump mainly was talking about cutting off their funding by separating them from the oil supply.

It looks as though he is on board with Jeb Bush now in building a "tremendous" safe zone within Syria.  I find the rationale between Paul and Bush on this fascinating as I like what both are saying and would love to hear them go back and forth drilling down again and again.

Quote
The first few weeks certainly were. About a month or so in it became the blueprint for how to fuck everything up American style.
I frequently talked to people stationed there during Bush's term.  They described Afghanistan as kinda boring.  So your "months" timing isn't lining up with mine.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/world/asia/31history.html?referer=

Also,
"Stationed in Afghanistan during Bush's term" is a 7.5 year window.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #96 on: November 17, 2015, 03:38:33 PM »
I'm saying read the article as it was not well handled from the get go, our guys were given insufficent resources and it led to the longest war in our history. A few of your friends being bored doesn't change that. (I've had many friends serve there with different stories, but anecdotal views don't do much).


What was the point in bringong up McChrystal?

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #97 on: November 17, 2015, 03:50:20 PM »
They were given insufficient resources once their job became to convert Afghanistan into America II. During the early days of the war massive resources weren't a problem because they weren't required. That was a job for a very small number of guys operating on the ground with locals and with the ability to make a phone call and have something blown to tiny bits when needed. That's also how it was started. It just didn't sit well with the military establishment that was pressuring Dumbass to change course.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #98 on: November 17, 2015, 03:55:18 PM »
Well, there were objectives that weren't met (the most obvious one, UBL), and areas that were never cleared of Taliban activity, e.g. Korengal valley. I guess it depends on what objectives to look at. Removing the Taliban from immediate power? Yeah. Removing their influence, not so much.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #99 on: November 17, 2015, 04:05:21 PM »
Ah yeah, I thought you were tying to bring Obama into this. I'll remind you that we are talking about 2001 - 2003 and what we can learn from our handling of the beginning of the war. I'd ask you to not bring this into yet another Bush v. Obama poo flinging contest (especially since Obama and what happened 8 years later literally has nothing to do with the actual conversation we're having) but that's clearly falling on deaf ears at this point.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #100 on: November 17, 2015, 04:18:42 PM »
I am not an Obama apologist, I never even voted for the guy, and it was el Barto who called him a dumbass (he has names for both he and Obama). You have me and every post I make painted into this little box that is unfair and frankly ridiculous.

When discussing a cautiomary tale of us rushing into a response, Afghanistan is not a great blueprint. That is more than fair to say without a snarky response about Obama somehow needing to be shoehorned in.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2015, 04:22:22 PM »
All I'm currently seeing is people saying that we must just "be nice an unite" and the world will be peaceful.

Are people too bubblewrapped now?

What next? Free hugs for ISIS? Yeah that'll work!

As I said in my immigration in Europe thread, a lot of people are more interested in stopping an anti Islam backlash than preventing this happening again, I surely can't be the only one annoyed at this 'unite' ideology.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2015, 04:41:49 PM »
Actually, I didn't bring Dumbass into it. I brought Cheney/Rumsfeld into it. In fact, saying that W was pressured into a bad move is about the kindest thing I can say about his role in Afghanistan. Moreover, you were questioning my time frame, and the time frame I was using was the shift from covert war to military war. That's why I brought those two guys up as an example of how to fuck things up. It wasn't intended as a dig at Dumbass, but rather a point of reference.


edit: Oh, and sadly I never came up with a nickname for Obama that suits me (at least that wouldn't be seen as overtly racist).
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Offline TL

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #103 on: November 17, 2015, 04:52:32 PM »
All I'm currently seeing is people saying that we must just "be nice an unite" and the world will be peaceful.

Are people too bubblewrapped now?

What next? Free hugs for ISIS? Yeah that'll work!

As I said in my immigration in Europe thread, a lot of people are more interested in stopping an anti Islam backlash than preventing this happening again, I surely can't be the only one annoyed at this 'unite' ideology.

ISIS is to Islam what the KKK were to Christianity.

You know who hates ISIS more than anyone? Moderate Muslims. They're also the group who have suffered the most losses of life at the hands of ISIS.

ISIS wants the west to become more hostile toward Islam in general. They want to be able to point at the west and say "See, they hate Muslims!". If anything, anti-Islamic sentiment in the west helps ISIS recruitment.

Everyone here wants ISIS stopped. Everyone here wants safety and security for our fellow citizens and allies. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. It's understandable that this whole situation can provoke anger, and can be quite scary, especially since there's not a clear solution. Unity is important, because we're facing an opponent who is trying to provoke division.

Offline TL

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #104 on: November 17, 2015, 05:03:17 PM »
I believe Christianity also had a lot to do with the move to end slavery, so that kinda doesn't really work.
Calvin, that's kinda my point there. That the extremists are not representative of the larger group.