Author Topic: What is going on in Paris?  (Read 5598 times)

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Offline TL

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2015, 05:38:21 PM »
To take this in another direction, this is a good example of why it shouldn't be so easy for illegal immigrants to get into this country.  Not that some wanting to do heinous crimes won't find a way in regardless, but it should be far more difficult.  Not saying we should build a wall, ala Trump, just that changes need to be made.  The world is too dangerous nowadays for us to stand by the "America is the land of the free and we welcome anyone who wants to come here" way of thinking.  Sad that it's come to that.  :(
Really not the thread for this.

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posting prayers and hashtags on social media doesn't do shit other than inject yourself into a tragedy
Maybe people are having difficulty processing such a horrific event, and feel powerless to do anything, so they express their grief/condolences?
I'm not saying no one is ever selfish about tragedy, but I think most people are just trying to feel a bit less lost during a difficult time.

Offline Genowyn

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2015, 07:55:45 PM »
Something that's worth noting, especially when it comes to talking about the immigration side of it is that ISIS has in the past expressly stated their goal is to destroy the 'grey area'. They want all Muslims to be on their side and all non-Muslims to be xenophobic hatemongers. They characterize it as "Islam vs the Crusade".

They are an engine of hate and violence, and more hate and violence is not the way to overcome them.

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2015, 08:33:28 PM »
More violence could overcome them. But it is not a battle I want the US to engage in, if possible. When they bring the battle to you though, I think you have to address the situation differently.
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Offline Genowyn

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2015, 10:01:22 PM »
On the violence note, I meant things like the people burning Syrian refugee camps in France. This behavior is unproductive and exactly what ISIS wants.

That being said, do you really think violence will affect any long term change? ISIS recruits people by pointing out the damage that the west has done in wars in the Middle East, by stirring up anger over collateral damage caused by airstrikes and drone missiles. If you respond violently I fear it would just give the next asshole more tools he can use to recruit.

That being said, genocide, human trafficking, and the destruction of history and cultural heritage are not things that can be tolerated. There is a fine line that needs to be walked, and the actual cost on the whole of human civilization is too high to let countries like Saudi Arabia, who are content to allow ISIS complete their genocide of non-Arabs and non-Muslims before intervening, to bear the responsibility. The Saudis will get involved if and when ISIS actually threatens their borders, and I think ISIS is well aware of that.

It's all a matter of very fine lines unfortunately.

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Online Nekov

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2015, 05:13:09 AM »
Siria is being constantly bombed but the news don't show it and tons of innocent people are dying but nobody seems to care about that and I'm guessing it's because those deaths happen within the context of a war
Yes, that is the important difference.

Death in war, even collateral damage, is much different than the unprovoked slaughter of peaceful citizens in a non-warzone.

Exactly. It is shocking to me that some seemingly do not understand the difference.

I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...

Definitely think there needs to be disrespect toward ISIS when we (Hollande and other leaders) talk about them.  They should frame it in terms of how these cowards didn't go looking for a fight. 

Yeah, it's really brave when a guy in a secure bunker flies a drone and throws bombs at people....

Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

Nice, victim blaming at its finest here.

I don't blame the victims, they were innocent people that got killed and that is extremely wrong. I'm in no way condoning what happened because it's awful and should never happen. What I'm saying is that in the western world we clearly have a double standard and only judge things harshly when they happen to people in the western world, but when it happens in the middle east we either look the other way or justify it by saying it's war. And this war has been going on for like 15 years now and look, nothing's changed, terrorism is still happening, people are dying every day. First it was Afghanistan, then it was Irak, now it's Siria, tomorrow it will be Kuwait or wherever and the wheel will keep turning. How much money and lifes has this cost already with no result? Why aren't we trying to educate this people instead of giving them reasons to commit these attroucious acts?

King says sometime war is necessary and I really don't think so. I'm going to quote something from the last Dr. Who episode because I don't think there's any way I can put it more clear than this:

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This is a scale model of war. Every war ever fought, right there in front of you. Because it's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn! How many hearts will be broken! How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill until everybody does until what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2015, 05:33:47 AM »
I hope it never is my friend and it is moving to strikes and not wars.  Countries are fighting ideologies now not other countries.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 05:50:33 AM by kingshmegland »
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2015, 07:02:57 AM »
War is never necessary, Nekov?  You do realize that without war, Hitler would have wreaked more havoc on Jews and the world, slavery would still exist in this country (or the South would have seceded and become their own country), and ultimately, England would still own this country.  War sucks, but it is absolutely necessary sometimes. 

And I am sorry, but it is extremely to naive to think that we could educate terrorists into not committing their heinous acts.

Your overall stance is just bizarre, because it is not realistic.  Yes, in an ideal world, we would all live together in peace, but it's not realistic. 

Online MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2015, 08:53:46 AM »
Someone posted this on FB and I think he has a good point:
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I understand the frustration of people who are posting things like 'What about Syria? What about Palestine?' in relation to the grief and shock coursing through social media about the events in Paris. There is indeed a myopia in the media about things that happen 'here', and things that happen 'over there'. But that, for the most part, reflects the myopia we as humans have - we need context to process significant events, especially things as horrible as what happened on Friday night. The unimaginable horror of being attacked during something as intrinsic to so many of our lives as just going to a fucking gig (or even working at one) has hit home hard, and I don't think its selfish or blinkered to feel something more profound about that than from disengaged reports of barrel bombs being dropped on rural markets or field hospitals in a country so far removed from our sphere of influence and cognisance as to be otherworldly. One of the news organisations I work for specialises in reportage and opinion focused entirely on the situation in Syria - it's a daily barrage of some of the most harrowing stories I've ever had to deal with. But none has hit me in the pit of my stomach in the way that the dispatches from Paris did - a city I have visited numerous times and did exactly what all those people who were killed were doing: having a nice meal with my wife; going to a gig; standing behind a fucking merchandise table, for fuck's sake! People are processing their grief, shock, sadness, because the grotesque of the familiar turning into horror has resonated with them more profoundly than they could have ever imagined. Saying, 'Yeah, well ... Rwanda!' doesn't really achieve anything. In fact, it might shut down the next stage of dialogue, which is: 'How can we stop this happening EVERYWHERE?'
I've been to Paris and France several times and visited alot of the famous land marks and so on so I definitely have a connection with the city although i've never lived there.
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Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2015, 06:03:50 AM »
Weapons stolen from Massachusetts Army Reserve building

Quote
It was not immediately clear how many or what type of weapons were taken. FBI spokeswoman Kristin Setera said the agency had no indication that the missing weapons were connected to terrorism.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/16/weapons-stolen-from-massachusetts-army-reserve-building/?intcmp=hpbt4

Back in August, 40 grenades and 128 C4/detonators were stolen from a military base Paris. I really hope we're not about to discover a trend.

Online Nekov

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2015, 06:48:25 AM »
War is never necessary, Nekov?  You do realize that without war, Hitler would have wreaked more havoc on Jews and the world, slavery would still exist in this country (or the South would have seceded and become their own country), and ultimately, England would still own this country.  War sucks, but it is absolutely necessary sometimes. 

And I am sorry, but it is extremely to naive to think that we could educate terrorists into not committing their heinous acts.

Your overall stance is just bizarre, because it is not realistic.  Yes, in an ideal world, we would all live together in peace, but it's not realistic.

Ok, I will grant you that saying war is never necessary it's an extreme because right there you have a pretty good example. But there's also a big difference there, Hitler was trying to invade the rest of Europe and those countries had to fight back in order to keep their population safe and they did it on their own ground. That's very different from Europe and the US bombing places in the middle east. And you say it's naive to think that little children can be educated in order to not turn into terrorists, but have we tried that? Is it proven that it doesn't work? As I said before, 15 years of war against terror have not changed a single thing, maybe it's time to try something else instead of keep killing innocent people because that only keeps the wheels turning.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2015, 08:22:47 AM »
Prayers go out to the victims in these tragedies. Yet, the french have things that do not belong to them, things we as native peoples of america kindly have asked, several times to be returned to us, sacred objects that we hold dearly. Guaranteed we've told them about the consequences that can occur if not returned, Not by us, but by the way our spirits choose to handle it. Thats all I have to say about this. I do pray and hope these will be returned one day. and the people there will continue living as no one should have to endure this.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2015, 10:11:37 AM »
Problem is, we are living in a world in which the line between war zone and non-war zone is increasingly blurred. It's an important distinction to make, for sure, but we have to remember that our notions of what constitutes a war zone are not always going to align with a terrorist organization like Daesh which, by all indications, is already particularly difficult to pin down to any one geographical region.

I don't discount your idea - it is sound - but let's not wax too philosophical.    A few hundred Parisian children (what I consider anyone under 30, because I'm old) going out to bang heads at a rock concert is hardly "a blurry war zone". 

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2015, 10:20:52 AM »
Problem is, we are living in a world in which the line between war zone and non-war zone is increasingly blurred. It's an important distinction to make, for sure, but we have to remember that our notions of what constitutes a war zone are not always going to align with a terrorist organization like Daesh which, by all indications, is already particularly difficult to pin down to any one geographical region.

I don't discount your idea - it is sound - but let's not wax too philosophical.    A few hundred Parisian children (what I consider anyone under 30, because I'm old) going out to bang heads at a rock concert is hardly "a blurry war zone".
I'd consider them (if I'm wearing my black, jihadi headband, that is) non-combatants living in a war zone.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2015, 10:33:26 AM »
War is never necessary, Nekov?  You do realize that without war, Hitler would have wreaked more havoc on Jews and the world, slavery would still exist in this country (or the South would have seceded and become their own country), and ultimately, England would still own this country.  War sucks, but it is absolutely necessary sometimes. 

And I am sorry, but it is extremely to naive to think that we could educate terrorists into not committing their heinous acts.

Your overall stance is just bizarre, because it is not realistic.  Yes, in an ideal world, we would all live together in peace, but it's not realistic.

Ok, I will grant you that saying war is never necessary it's an extreme because right there you have a pretty good example. But there's also a big difference there, Hitler was trying to invade the rest of Europe and those countries had to fight back in order to keep their population safe and they did it on their own ground. That's very different from Europe and the US bombing places in the middle east. And you say it's naive to think that little children can be educated in order to not turn into terrorists, but have we tried that? Is it proven that it doesn't work? As I said before, 15 years of war against terror have not changed a single thing, maybe it's time to try something else instead of keep killing innocent people because that only keeps the wheels turning.

It's only a difference in tactic.   And don't forget (as I have not, because I had - key word, HAD - family in Poland that saw American and French and Soviet airplanes dropping bombs on them in the hopes of liberating them) that the specifics of the conflict dictate the specifics of the engagement.   With an entity like ISIL, that has no embassies, has no capital, has no sitting government, there is almost no recourse BUT to take the attack to those countries where their presence is manifest.  And as abhorrent as it may be for some, perhaps the "innocents" are part of the battle.  Perhaps the more "innocents" that are in harm's way, the more "innocents" will stand up and say "That isn't us.  That isn't what we believe, that isn't what we stand for, and that isn't how we want to be known throughout the world."     

Online Nekov

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2015, 10:53:47 AM »
Again guys, this is not the solution. Can you sincerely look at that and tell me that is the right way to deal with all this?
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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2015, 12:01:18 PM »
There is no context of the video, so what it represents is foggy at best.

You need context on bombs falling on people's homes? You need context on children having to run away from that?
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Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2015, 12:04:16 PM »
Again guys, this is not the solution. Can you sincerely look at that and tell me that is the right way to deal with all this?

That link is blocked where I am. Can you describe what's going on it it?

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2015, 12:17:31 PM »
Prayers go out to the victims in these tragedies. Yet, the french have things that do not belong to them, things we as native peoples of america kindly have asked, several times to be returned to us, sacred objects that we hold dearly. Guaranteed we've told them about the consequences that can occur if not returned, Not by us, but by the way our spirits choose to handle it. Thats all I have to say about this. I do pray and hope these will be returned one day. and the people there will continue living as no one should have to endure this.


Uhhh..... ?

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2015, 01:32:27 PM »
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2015, 01:47:48 PM »
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.
I don't think the hypothetical people we're calling collateral damage really care who started it. Moreover, you're going to run into an infinite regress problem once you start down that path.

And frankly, there are an awful lot of people in Iraq who have every right to think that we bombed them because we had nothing better to do. While I don't think it's the case, I think the rationale was every bit as stupid and pointless.
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Online Nekov

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2015, 01:53:38 PM »
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.

I know that's not what happened but again my point is that as long as the answer to someone throwing a bomb is throwing a bomb back at them, this will never end. And my first point is, if we feel horrified by what happened in Paris, we should also feel horrified about what happens every day in the middle east because both of them have innocent people dying, but as long as we only look at one of them then that side will feel justified in killing innocent people.
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Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2015, 02:06:56 PM »


This was the riot shield of a cop entering Bataclan.


Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2015, 02:31:36 PM »
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.
I don't think the hypothetical people we're calling collateral damage really care who started it. Moreover, you're going to run into an infinite regress problem once you start down that path.
Seems to me that if they were so mad that they felt they had to take matters into their own hands, they should know WTF is going on, and who is really to blame for their circumstances.  Which is, 99 times out of 100, their own people.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2015, 02:51:20 PM »
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.
I don't think the hypothetical people we're calling collateral damage really care who started it. Moreover, you're going to run into an infinite regress problem once you start down that path.
Seems to me that if they were so mad that they felt they had to take matters into their own hands, they should know WTF is going on, and who is really to blame for their circumstances.  Which is, 99 times out of 100, their own people.
Frankly, Hef, I don't think any of these Paris knuckleheads had ever given their rationale any thought at all. As I've said somewhere recently, they're idiots duped into acting out by people exploiting their religious devotion. I'm only into this aspect of the discussion because I think, which I believe is Nekov's point, that it's too easy to slap labels like good guy, bad guy, hero or terrorist onto people without considering the highly relative nature of the alignment. Some guy attending his cousin's wedding doesn't give a fuck about the geopolitical developments that lead up to the moment when the spooky opens fire. They see themselves every bit the victim of terrorism as the people in Paris do.
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Online Nekov

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2015, 03:44:12 PM »
Thanks Eb, I'm so frustrated about all this that I'm having a really hard time expressing my point clearly but that right there. What I'm trying to get out is that we need to see both sides of the coin or at least try to get into those peoples shoes because they also need our support, they are completely defenseles and it seems like they don't even exist and that pisses me off to no end. I think how I would feel being one of those kids in the video I posted before and my heart breaks for them.
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Online Nekov

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2015, 04:03:50 PM »
What I'm trying to get out is that we need to see both sides of the coin or at least try to get into those peoples shoes because they also need our support
You might be treading in very dangerous water here as you have just made a connection of the terrorists to the people from which they come.  Are we going to lump them together now?

It seems we can only lump them together and then also be told we can't lump them together only at *our* (the west) inconvenience.

So where do we go with this conversation then.  You can't expect people to give ground on both ends.

I'm not saying terrorists need our support, I'm saying innocent people that are being bombed need our support. The fact that geographically they are close to each other doesn't mean we need to put them in the same group.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2015, 05:27:23 PM »
Calvin6s, seems to me that you are the one talking in repeating loops.  I understand that sometimes war is inevitable.   It's the innocent that Diego is talking about and how they are secondary to the goal of war.  Diego hopes to avoid war altogether.  He sees the innocent in Iraq.   But this is not the kind of war that is simple where you know the opponent.   

So unfortunately,  there is innocent that are casualties.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2015, 06:30:29 PM »

When we are purposely targeting civilians, then we can talk about why that is wrong.  The idea that West doesn't want to avoid civilian casualties goes against history.  The civilians are caught up because ISIS sets it up that way (a side which is targeting civilians.)  And we have to worry about the ignorance of those civilians not realizing this?  There were years of no response to the Syria war.  It got worse.  Much worse.  Then there was a PR-campaign response that had little to do with any real goal.  It got worse.  Much worse.  Whether or not it gets worse or better goes well beyond our actions.
Completely missing the point (or my point, at least). When you drop a paveway through the roof of a bomb shelter, or have an orbiting spooky blast all fuck out of a mobile hospital, "Oopsy, sorry, meant to hit those guys over there," means precisely jack shit to the people inside. You're the bad guy. Period. The fact that you feel your cause is just makes no more difference than it does to the Paris assholes who feel the same thing.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2015, 07:05:47 PM »
It amazes me that you can't feel sympathy for those affected by war that are not involved Calvin6s.   I agree that war is needed at some point but your circular jibber jabber makes you seem devoid of empathy.

 
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So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2015, 07:29:35 PM »
I said Friday night that I suspected the French would handle this much better than we did. While it's still quite early, the Parisians certainly seem to be holding up their end. Driving home I heard a French woman, civilian, say "we can't lose our sympathy. That's what we have and if we give it away we've lost everything." I applaud her sense of humanity. Immediately after her story comes Governor Cripple, pounding on the desk insisting that "we can't let any Syrians into Texas. That'd be insanity!" The arrogance never ceases to amaze me which allows us to ridicule others, the French in particular, for being pussies while celebrating so many of our own displays of monumental cowardice.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2015, 08:12:44 PM »
The cliche hatred of the French always pissed me off. They're a western European ally of ours, and have been since our inception.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2015, 06:15:46 AM »
It amazes me that you can't feel sympathy for those affected by war that are not involved Calvin6s.
It amazes me that you draw such conclusions.
.
That's easy to do from reading your posts.  Somehow, to ok with easily saying oh well to the people caught up in war.  You can still be for it and have sympathy for those innocent bystanders.   

I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'. - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2015, 06:59:40 AM »
Sure.  I do believe it is needed sometimes.  Lately, it tough because this is a war of ideologies.  It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'. - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2015, 08:25:48 AM »
It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?



I know that there have been many civilian casualties as a result of drone strikes, and I don't love all aspects of the program, but this is basically the only option without putting US soldiers in harms way.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2015, 08:40:01 AM »
It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?



I know that there have been many civilian casualties as a result of drone strikes, and I don't love all aspects of the program, but this is basically the only option without putting US soldiers in harms way.
Ah, The Bravery of Being Out of Range. I've got no problem using targeted drone strikes in plenty of the situations we do. I do have a problem with treating the whole thing as some heroic act, or saying that the people we're knocking off have no business calling us pussies for doing it.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson