Author Topic: What is going on in Paris?  (Read 4589 times)

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Offline TL

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #105 on: November 17, 2015, 05:18:49 PM »
I'm not really seeing the Muslim mirror in that however.

I do believe I saw quite a few "regular" Palestinians cheering on 9/11.  Much of the Muslim support was clearly based in fear more than solidarity.

Also, the point that we should ignore the "Islamic" part of Islamic Extremist (Jihadi, Terrorist) is an all or nothing argument.

No. It isn't. It literally isn't.
ISIL are as representative of Muslims as the KKK or the Westboro Church are of Christianity.

You saw a few Muslims who didn't like the US once? Good for you. I'm sure that means that millions of people definitely share that exact sentiment.
I've seen Christians advocate turning the entire middle east into glass. I absolutely don't think all or even most Christians share that view.

Offline Nekov

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #106 on: November 17, 2015, 05:27:11 PM »
Also, the point that we should ignore the "Islamic" part of Islamic Extremist (Jihadi, Terrorist) is an all or nothing argument.

This guy has an interesting point of view about the subject.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2015, 05:53:44 AM »
All I'm currently seeing is people saying that we must just "be nice an unite" and the world will be peaceful.

Are people too bubblewrapped now?

What next? Free hugs for ISIS? Yeah that'll work!

As I said in my immigration in Europe thread, a lot of people are more interested in stopping an anti Islam backlash than preventing this happening again, I surely can't be the only one annoyed at this 'unite' ideology.

ISIS is to Islam what the KKK were to Christianity.

You know who hates ISIS more than anyone? Moderate Muslims. They're also the group who have suffered the most losses of life at the hands of ISIS.

ISIS wants the west to become more hostile toward Islam in general. They want to be able to point at the west and say "See, they hate Muslims!". If anything, anti-Islamic sentiment in the west helps ISIS recruitment.

Everyone here wants ISIS stopped. Everyone here wants safety and security for our fellow citizens and allies. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. It's understandable that this whole situation can provoke anger, and can be quite scary, especially since there's not a clear solution. Unity is important, because we're facing an opponent who is trying to provoke division.

I would think moderate Muslims have the most reasons to hate ISIS, the problem is, where are they?  The President of Jordan has been pretty vocally against ISIS (and has taken action as well), but what about the rest of the the moderate Muslims?  I don't hear anything from them or see any action from them, so it is hard to believe if they actually do hate ISIS (im not claiming they like ISIS, I just think actions speak louder than words).

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2015, 05:54:04 AM »
Saying "Islam isn't the problem" doesn't take away the threat....

Sure Islam in general isn't a problem but Middle eastern Islam kind of is a problem, they are taught to hate the west, which doesn't bother me really, but when the MAJORITY of them believe that someone who converts from Islam should be killed. I get rather concerned about what the penalties could be for people in the west. Especially when I'm not allowed to dislike MIDDLE EASTERN Islam....

Could these not be described as extreme views?




Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2015, 08:19:13 AM »
Have to say big props to the french police for the early morning raid. Looked like a well organized operation which if I understood correctly was achieved by gathering intel from broken cell phones they found from the terrorists.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #110 on: November 18, 2015, 10:33:34 AM »
I'm not really seeing the Muslim mirror in that however.

I do believe I saw quite a few "regular" Palestinians cheering on 9/11.  Much of the Muslim support was clearly based in fear more than solidarity.

Also, the point that we should ignore the "Islamic" part of Islamic Extremist (Jihadi, Terrorist) is an all or nothing argument.

No. It isn't. It literally isn't.
ISIL are as representative of Muslims as the KKK or the Westboro Church are of Christianity.

You saw a few Muslims who didn't like the US once? Good for you. I'm sure that means that millions of people definitely share that exact sentiment.
I've seen Christians advocate turning the entire middle east into glass. I absolutely don't think all or even most Christians share that view.

Being a Christian, and having almost nothing except for my citizenship in common with the average KKK member or Westboro Church practitioner, I can relate to this idea.  Good post, TL.   But I would add, that while I am not an evangelist of any sort (I don't even play songs for people that I like; I respect them enough to arrive at their own answers) I do feel obligated to set the record straight when I see people either abusing my chosen faith (or the tenets thereof) or stereotyping against my chosen faith.   

I think that while it's probably fair to say that most moderate Muslims don't share the beliefs of ISIL, I think the "outcry" is not as loud as it should be to reflect that extremely large fraction of 1.6 billion people. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #111 on: November 18, 2015, 01:39:07 PM »



This makes me wonder how many people in America would be in favor of instituting Christian law. Within that context I don't think this is all that surprising.  Nationwide I'd suspect it to be around a third. But you go into Oklahoma and Kansas and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see easily into the fifties or higher. A place like Tunisia isn't going to be split down the middle into blue and red states, so they're going be somewhat unified.
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Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #112 on: November 18, 2015, 01:56:46 PM »
By that chart I'm showing how many people support laws that behead people for changing religion, stone people for adultery and amputate for theft...

Is it not clear that middle eastern/Sub-Saharan African Muslims simply can't integrate or support the west's culture?

And as I said, I'd consider those pretty extreme views.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #113 on: November 18, 2015, 02:09:41 PM »
Something I've been pondering is a passage from an Atlantic article on ISIL, about the relationship between Islam and their behavior. To paraphrase:

To the extent that Islam is a thing, they're one in the same. Essentially, Islam is what Moslems do. Moslems draw their inspiration/motivation from the same book, but they interpret it differently. So with that in mind what makes ISIL's view of Islam any different than anybody else's?


I think this is valid. At the same time I think it's no different than any other religion. In essence, Christianity is what Christians do, and they damn sure have their own interpretations of what God wants. We all have our preferences for the Christians with points of view closer to our own, the Presbyterians are now opposed to capital punishment, for example. That suits me just fine. Yet I have no place to say that they're right or that the snake handling Holiness-Pentacostals of Mississippi are wrong. To that end, how do we separate God Hates Fags from Christianity. Or the people who thought that being immolated in a struggle with evil was their destiny?

I think we all similarly dislike the WBC and the subset of the Branch Davidians, just like we do the intolerant assholes in ISIL. Most Christians would simply say "well, the WBC doesn't represent anything but a perverted form of Christianity." Eh, whatever. I'm just not sure I can get on board with blasting an entire religion because we think their tenets suck ass based on the way they're expressed by some assholes, while completely dismissing our own assholes.
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Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #114 on: November 18, 2015, 02:28:54 PM »
As I've said, I'm not blasting the whole religion just the region where (what I'd describe as) extreme ideology really strong/acceptable.

The sphere which I'd call extreme is a lot larger than I can say about Christianity.

I'm not even sure I can say there is a certain concentrated place for extreme Christianity, I'm not sure I could even the vatican city in that category now, the current pope is certainly combating people being extreme about it.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #115 on: November 18, 2015, 02:52:33 PM »
That wasn't directed at anybody. I was posting it simply because it's a way of looking at it that I hadn't considered. Or perhaps just presented in a manner that makes it appear so.

As for finding concentrations, there are plenty of places in America far more devout in their beliefs than The Vatican. Catholicism is somewhat static and isn't really under any threat. Catholics do what they do and that's that.  American evangelicals are feel angry and threatened.

It seems that 53% of Republicans support proclaiming America a Christian nation, understanding that it would invalidate the constitution. You put that to some place like Wichita and I suspect the number goes up quite a bit. Moreover, You wouldn't have any trouble replacing state law with God's law.
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #116 on: November 18, 2015, 03:47:05 PM »
Those statistics about instituting Death Penalty for conversion are troublesome, to say the least.

Muslims, for the most part, do not like ISIS.  But it is the tactics they use that they don't like.  If asked about the final goals, the disagreement goes down.

It's not that I disagree, but I have to ask... On what grounds are you making this claim? What are the final goals of ISIS, anyways?
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2015, 10:19:41 PM »
None of the 8 terrorists came in as refugees.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2015, 12:51:33 AM »
It was a factual statement that cleared up a previously incorrect report and presumption. I don't care to think what you're accusing me of.

Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #119 on: November 19, 2015, 05:44:14 AM »
I've been reading that of the eight identified gunman, none were refugees.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #120 on: November 19, 2015, 06:23:51 AM »
I've been reading that of the eight identified gunman, none were refugees.

At least one is suspected to have, a few others fought within Syria, So they possibly could have come with the refugees (I'm unsure how else they could).


Omar Ismail Mostefai: "In recent years he appears to have travelled to Syria and may have also spent time in Algeria.
A senior Turkish official confirmed to the BBC that Mostefai had entered Turkey in 2013 and there was no record of him leaving the country."

Ahmad al-Mohammad: "The Paris prosecutor's office said fingerprints from the dead attacker matched those of a person who came to Europe with migrants via the Greek island of Leros"

Bilal Hadfi: "Some reports suggest he once fought with IS in Syria."

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34832512)


Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2015, 06:27:08 AM »
I've been reading that of the eight identified gunman, none were refugees.

At least one is suspected to have, a few others fought within Syria, So they possibly could have come with the refugees (I'm unsure how else they could).


Omar Ismail Mostefai: "In recent years he appears to have travelled to Syria and may have also spent time in Algeria.
A senior Turkish official confirmed to the BBC that Mostefai had entered Turkey in 2013 and there was no record of him leaving the country."

Ahmad al-Mohammad: "The Paris prosecutor's office said fingerprints from the dead attacker matched those of a person who came to Europe with migrants via the Greek island of Leros"

Bilal Hadfi: "Some reports suggest he once fought with IS in Syria."

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34832512)

"The information may throw a more cautionary light on our reactions to refugees - for contrary to rumour, none of the named suspects recently arrived in Europe from Syria or elsewhere, and most had been born - or grew up - in France and Belgium.

The identities of the eight people directly involved can be broken down as follows:

Bilal Hadfi, 20 - French (living in Belgium)

Ismaël Omar Mostefaï, 29 - French

Samy Amimour, 28 - French

Ibrahim Abdeslam, 31 - French (living in Belgium)

Salah Abdeslam, 26 - French (living in Belgium)

Hamza Attou, 21 - Belgian

Mohamed Amri, 27 - Belgian (born in Morocco)

*Eighth suspect (unidentified) carrying stolen passport in name of 'Ahmad al-Mohammad', 25 - from Idlib, Syria

The alleged mastermind is Abdelhamid Abaaoud, 27, from Belgium. "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attacks-the-eight-terror-suspects-named-so-far-all-have-eu-passports-a6738821.html

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #122 on: November 19, 2015, 06:39:38 AM »
That doesn't take away that some of them fought with ISIS in Syria.

Because they were born in France, it doesn't mean they never left.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2015, 08:33:16 AM »
I love how whether or not they came in as refugees is a political football here in America. And PC shaming is just about as fucking stupid.
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Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2015, 01:01:00 PM »
Quote
EU to Revise Travel Ban Rules
The European Union will revise its rules on travel bans, making it mandatory for member states to share the names of people denied entry and wanted felons, so that they don’t slip unnoticed into another EU country.

At long last!

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #125 on: November 19, 2015, 03:50:53 PM »
I don't know how exactly Trump wants us to create an autonomous region in Syria and Iraq away from ISIS, Assad, the effects of the civil war, and to protect it. Especially I wonder how that isn't nation building.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #126 on: November 19, 2015, 11:46:11 PM »
That's kinda my point, though. The Kurds are hardly protected from ISIS, hell they're the ones actually engaging them. How are we supposed to protect a large number of people from ISIS as its situated right now? There is no real analogy we can look to.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #127 on: November 20, 2015, 04:07:26 AM »
Right I got it, I just mean it's not like a no fly zone would do bupkis now to protect anyone from ISIS. If we were to try to protect an autonomous region of refugees, I don't see how we could defend it since this enemy is so different than the world has seen really. Traditional measures like no fly zones wouldn't do much, we'd probably need an occupying force.

Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #128 on: November 20, 2015, 05:41:37 AM »
Think this is related?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gunmen-take-170-hostage-radisson-hotel-bamako-mali-n466831?cid=sm_tw&hootPostID=0d0ee9130c317f94abf60b8f9db6623f

Gunmen Take 170 Hostage at Radisson Hotel in Bamako, Mali

Quote
Gunmen stormed a hotel packed with foreigners in the former French colony of Mali on Friday, taking 170 guests and workers hostages, U.S. Embassy officials and a hotel spokeswoman told NBC News.

Some managed to escape the upscale Radisson Blu, in the capital Bamako, but military officials told The Associated Press that at least three people had been killed.

The U.S. Embassy described it as an "ongoing active-shooter operation."

The raid on the hotel, which was popular with foreigners and used by airline crews, comes a week after attackers killed 129 people in Paris.

Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #129 on: November 20, 2015, 05:52:46 AM »
These things seem to be happening more and more.  I dont think that has been determined to be ISIS yet, that article and another I just read said possible al qaeda link.  Regardless, definitely radical islam.

Offline cramx3

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #130 on: November 20, 2015, 06:12:32 AM »
Been watching that all morning.  Please tell me we aren't going to have a terrorist off.

Thats what I immediately thought, are these terrorists groups going to start trying to one up each other?

Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #131 on: November 20, 2015, 06:14:31 AM »
Been watching that all morning.  Please tell me we aren't going to have a terrorist off.

Thats what I immediately thought, are these terrorists groups going to start trying to one up each other?

I really hope not. That'd spell disaster if it escalated quickly enough.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #132 on: November 20, 2015, 06:14:45 AM »
Been watching that all morning.  Please tell me we aren't going to have a terrorist off.

Thats what I immediately thought, are these terrorists groups going to start trying to one up each other?

Or fight eachother?

Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #133 on: November 20, 2015, 06:15:55 AM »
Been watching that all morning.  Please tell me we aren't going to have a terrorist off.

Thats what I immediately thought, are these terrorists groups going to start trying to one up each other?

Or fight eachother?

I don't think so. They'd call a truce if it meant that together they could send the rest of the planet into chaos.

Offline Chino

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #134 on: November 20, 2015, 07:25:32 AM »
I've read that hostages that were able to recite from the Koran were allowed to leave.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #135 on: November 20, 2015, 08:11:52 AM »
I know that the French military was pretty active in Mali a while back trying to root out extremists. I suspect this is trying to send a message, if not payback of some sort.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #136 on: November 21, 2015, 02:30:59 AM »
Brussels is in complete lock down with terror level at its highest. Mayor has told individuals to avoid public areas. Armored police cars are out. It really seems they've uncovered something (or think they did) and are worried it might be too late.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #137 on: November 21, 2015, 04:40:37 PM »
It's long been said the best thing to unite a people is a common enemy to rally against. For Russia and the West, ISIS seems to be taking over that position. Tensions have seemingly calmed with Russia over the last couple weeks. I obviously wish it were under different circumstances, but it is nice to not see Putin and the Kremlin portrayed as wanton boogie men.


China is now saying they're "declaring war on ISIS." Things are going to get interesting in the coming months.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 05:02:18 PM by portnoy311 »

Offline Lucien

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #138 on: November 21, 2015, 05:04:07 PM »
Well, if World War III is going to happen, I'd be just a bit happier knowing that our side far outnumbers the other side.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #139 on: November 21, 2015, 05:09:51 PM »
What scares me is how much politicians suck when talking about this.  Stupid ass Republicans are taking this as another opportunity to criticize the Democrats, and Obama talks with such ambivalence about ISIS, like they are nothing more than annoyance, while looking angry whenever talking about Republicans.  It's like, he has far more hatred for those who disagree with him in his own country than savages from another who want to kill us all.  And they all wonder why many distrust politicians in general so much. :tdwn :tdwn