Author Topic: What is going on in Paris?  (Read 5701 times)

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Calvin6s

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What is going on in Paris?
« on: November 13, 2015, 03:20:59 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 06:06:57 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2015, 03:24:40 PM »
Looks like a Mumbai type situation. That's too bad.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2015, 03:33:36 PM »
Yeah, this is looking like a bad one. Drive by at a restaurant, bombs/shooting outside a football match and an ongoing hostage situation at the concert venue where Eagles of Death Metal were playing.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 04:46:13 PM »
There are like 20 confirmed deaths right now, but I've heard reports that police are now claiming that there have been 30+.  It's really bad. 

This is all pretty far away from the body count of 9/11 (by a factor of 100 or so), but I'm not sure what the end result will be in terms of societal impact.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 04:58:16 PM »
I don't think you compare terrorist attacks by body count; that's subject to chance and not necessarily the objective anyway. You can compare them in the level of organization, and I think this is less sophisticated. I also think you can compare them by the end result, and that's something that will take some time to discern. America was devastated by 911, and the body count really didn't factor into it. I suspect the French will come out of this better than we did, at least I hope they do, and in that regard I'd consider this quite different (though again, it'll be a year before we really see).

And while I haven't seen anything about it, I suspect that the so-called hostage taking is going to turn out to have been just a massive slaughter. That's a real shame.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 05:01:49 PM »
Tragic of course, but expected. We've all been told to stay away from the city centre tomorrow because ISIL have said they're going to attack St Petersburg and Moscow this weekend, 'revenge' for our Syrian intervention (they released a video yesterday saying they're going to turn Russia into, and I quote, "an ocean of blood" and "take your women as concubines and your children as slaves". This was interspersed with images of beheadings). The wife obligingly shat herself, before I pointed out to her the video looks and reads like the work of an angry 12 year old.

I'm not going to comment on this Paris thing yet because it's still going on as I write this, but every time they pull a stunt like this they fuck themselves more and more. "We will take your territories" they said in the Russian video. Listen, we have autonomous Muslim republics INSIDE Russia here, many millions of people, Tartarstan, Bashkiria, Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia, etc, and we have all, by and large (the occasional Chechen adventure aside, but that wasn't connected with religion) lived together in peace for centuries. I have been to all these places. ISIL is hated. More than any other group of people, ISIL is despised all over those republics. Oh sure a few leave to go and fight with what they imagine is a noble crusade, as they do from Britain, France and America, but on the whole nobody wants this death cult in our world. I'm desperately sad for the people in Paris, I was in London in 2005 when we had our own terrorist attack, but fuck the terrorists, and fuck their attempts to make people afraid.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 05:39:06 PM »
The freaking world has gone crazy.  Just sickening to see this carnage on live television. :censored

Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2015, 05:59:10 PM »
Not again!!  :'( Apparently 140 confirmed dead, just insane!
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2015, 07:08:48 PM »
French President Hollande : "We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless. Because when terrorists are capable of comitting such atrocities, they must be certain that they are facing a determined France, a united France, a France that is together, and does not let itself be moved, even if today we express infinite sorrow."

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2015, 06:01:31 AM »
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2015, 06:04:44 AM »
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

What does that even mean?

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2015, 06:55:33 AM »
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

What does that even mean?

It means that as soon as an organised terrorist attack hits the Western World, it immediately receives media attention, while hundreds of deaths in the Middle-East don't necessarily. That said; your comment was completely unnecessary here, Nekov. Obviously, when it hits you at your 'home' it strikes harder than when it's somewhere distant. I was in Paris just two weeks ago and walked those same streets where innocents got shot by murderous religious extremists this night. It hurts - and yes, call me hypocritical, but to see this happening in a neighbouring country immediately makes this so much more real and so much more frightening than the hundreds of other innocents lost in countries where wars have been raging for as long as I can remember.

Anybody in Europe (or France) want to comment?

What do you want to know? Here the brief rundown of what happened:

- Three (suicide bombings at a football stadium where a friendly match between Germany and France was being played. French president Hollande was allegedly the target, though he made it out of there.
- Two shootings in crowded streets at night, people have dinner in restaurants got shot by masked men with automatic weapons.
- Another bombing in a random street elsewhere
- Two armed men kept hundreds of people hostage in the Theatre Bataclan, they stormed the venue during an Eagles of Death Metal concert, held people hostage. They killed around hundred at the venue before the police could storm the building and save what was left of it.
- ISIS reportedly claims they were responsible for the attacks and encourages other French Muslims to commit similar acts of terrorism and warns for future attacks if France does not stop bombing ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

----

There's a lot more and I'm not a news reporter, but this was particularly painful to watch last night. Terrible.
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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2015, 07:36:30 AM »
The only deaths I want to ever read or see is of extremists.
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2015, 07:41:50 AM »
Look, I don't think Nekov's comment was entirely without place here in this thread, since this P/R.

Not to condone the violence, but to condone context. People, myself definitely included, often ignore, misunderstand and forget that the Levant, Middle East and Arab world as a whole have had a long and complex history vis-a-vis Europe (and France in particular) in which the former was dehumanized time and time again, with piles of innocent dead at every stop along the way. Terrorism does not exist in a vacuum.

I'm not trying to tick anyone off and I'm not going to harp on it any more, I just worry that when we strip terrorism of its historical context we only ever play into the terrorists' hands.

And yes, Elite, I suspect I know just how you feel. I was in Paris just a couple months ago and when all this started going down last night I pulled out my little tourist map and remembered back. And the proximity of it does make the whole thing strike much closer to home, there is no denying that. It's absolutely horrendous and frightening and words can't really do justice to how it makes me feel. It's incredibly sad and disheartening- sometimes I feel like the human race is only days away from completely falling apart.


I mean look- I only wanted to say that the whole world is suffering and that isolating the suffering of one people while largely ignoring the majority which remains is problematic and seems more likely to encourage further destruction in the future. It's a fucking massive cliche, but we're all in this (world) together. Even the terrorists, insofar as they have the ability to fuck things up for the rest of us.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 07:49:12 AM by senecadawg2 »
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Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2015, 08:29:20 AM »
ISIS are claiming responsibility for the attack,

I have an argument, but it will wait for a few days as it is some what political, it's only fair to give the families time to grievance he world a better understanding of what exactly has gone down before introducing politics.

Offline splent

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2015, 08:46:29 AM »
Yep, ISIS.

It's so sickening. I can't believe why anyone would want to do this to innocent people... often times the people most vocal about their religion are the most extreme/crazy... ISIS falls into that category...

I doubt this will happen at least in this country because there are so many ignorant people, but
1) People will lump all Muslims into the terrorist category again because of ISIS's responsibility
2) How people are blaming the refugees is beyond me, they are RUNNING AWAY from ISIS, not causing ISIS-like attacks
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Online Nekov

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2015, 08:48:47 AM »
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

What does that even mean?

What Seneca said, Siria is being constantly bombed but the news don't show it and tons of innocent people are dying but nobody seems to care about that and I'm guessing it's because those deaths happen within the context of a war or maybe because we only care about what happens in the western world. Violent deaths like these are always awfaul but if we only look at some of them and not all of them then this will never stop, because the guys that did this see all those deaths we miss every day and this is how they react. If the rest of the world reacted to those maybe we could prevent more useless deaths.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2015, 09:35:53 AM »
ISIS are claiming responsibility for the attack,

Of course they are. There's a good chance they had a hand in it but let's be real they're giddy and eager to slap their name on everything like this regardless of whether they were responsible or not because it adds to their reputation.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2015, 09:36:52 AM »
Siria is being constantly bombed but the news don't show it and tons of innocent people are dying but nobody seems to care about that and I'm guessing it's because those deaths happen within the context of a war
Yes, that is the important difference.

Death in war, even collateral damage, is much different than the unprovoked slaughter of peaceful citizens in a non-warzone.
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2015, 09:53:27 AM »
Problem is, we are living in a world in which the line between war zone and non-war zone is increasingly blurred. It's an important distinction to make, for sure, but we have to remember that our notions of what constitutes a war zone are not always going to align with a terrorist organization like Daesh which, by all indications, is already particularly difficult to pin down to any one geographical region.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2015, 10:08:49 AM »
Siria is being constantly bombed but the news don't show it and tons of innocent people are dying but nobody seems to care about that and I'm guessing it's because those deaths happen within the context of a war
Yes, that is the important difference.

Death in war, even collateral damage, is much different than the unprovoked slaughter of peaceful citizens in a non-warzone.

Exactly. It is shocking to me that some seemingly do not understand the difference.

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2015, 10:40:31 AM »
I bet both Kev and Hef like most Americans don't ever want war.  It's the last resort. At least that's what I'd hope.  Unfortunately,  it is a necessity sometimes.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 11:20:49 AM by kingshmegland »
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2015, 11:19:23 AM »
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

Nice, victim blaming at its finest here.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2015, 11:39:58 AM »
Death in war, even collateral damage, is much different than the unprovoked slaughter of peaceful citizens in a non-warzone.
Not if you're part of the collateral damage. To those people it's the exact same thing.

Also, there's a thread in GD for grieving, mourning, whatever. I'm personally happy that Calvin, even if it wasn't his intention, started a thread about it in P/R because there certainly are aspects of it that don't need to be combined with the GD thread.

And with that said, I'm real interested in how France copes with this. When America go hammered the people collectively shit the bed, curled up into a ball in the corner and essentially handed victory to al Qaeda. My hunch is that the French react much better. While I'm not crazy about Hollande declaring this an act of war, the same rhetoric that contributed to our failure, I still think the people there will muster up a response that's equal part balls and sanity. That would be a damned fine thing to see. I'm certainly rooting for France this time around. 
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2015, 12:01:07 PM »
I bet both Kev and Hef like most Americans don't ever want war.  It's the last resort. At least that's what I'd hope.  Unfortunately,  it is a necessity sometimes.

Yep, nobody wants war, but it is a necessity sometimes.  People like Hitler and factions like ISIS cannot be reasoned with; war is the only way to stop them, sadly.

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2015, 01:05:26 PM »
Yep, nobody wants war, but it is a necessity sometimes.
I wouldn't even use the term war with ISIS.  These are just psychopaths.  Once they are seriously and continually engaged, I think they will start to fall apart and those joining will decide to wait it out for the next incarnation of Jihad.

The big problem is not what they do in Syria and the Middle East, but mainly what they will do in Europe.  Europe is a much easier target for them.

'Them' being psychopaths who are already living in Europe. This isn't necessarily Syrians (or other Middle-Eastern people for that matter_) who joined Daesh and are coming to Europe to blow up the Western World. There's religious extremist idiots over here that share their sentiment, that go radical and suddenly go nuts. The people already living here, they are a huge problem. It's much easier for them - and it will have more impact - to commit an act of terrorism here, where they live, instead of heading out to Syria to join forces with Daesh.
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Offline TL

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2015, 02:10:31 PM »
Absolutely heartbreaking.

I will say, the resolve and unity the French people have shown in the wake of this horrific tragedy is inspiring. The French are a brave, resilient people; basically the polar opposite of the cowards who committed these terrible acts.

Offline Lucien

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2015, 02:22:12 PM »
The conductor held a moment of silence at the Fort Worth Symphony Orchestra tonight, right before the concert started...

Everything's gone mad  :(
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2015, 04:35:44 PM »
To take this in another direction, this is a good example of why it shouldn't be so easy for illegal immigrants to get into this country.  Not that some wanting to do heinous crimes won't find a way in regardless, but it should be far more difficult.  Not saying we should build a wall, ala Trump, just that changes need to be made.  The world is too dangerous nowadays for us to stand by the "America is the land of the free and we welcome anyone who wants to come here" way of thinking.  Sad that it's come to that.  :(

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2015, 04:38:03 PM »
I've gone back and forth on that. Don't forget the refugees are trying to escape warzones like this.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2015, 04:41:46 PM »
For sure, but I think it has reached the point where we need to be a bit selfish and protect those of us who are here and are citizens first and foremost.  It's not like America is the only country in the world to which refugees can flee.  Bottom line, there is no easy solution for any of this.  It's impossible to take out everyone affiliated with ISIS, and it's just as impossible to stop everyone on a suicide mission. :censored

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2015, 04:47:56 PM »
Bit of a tangent but I've decided to not log onto Facebook for a while. I've been inundated by people praying for Paris - posting prayers and hashtags on social media doesn't do shit other than inject yourself into a tragedy. "127 people died, but don't forget about me and my compassion!"

Second are the people reminding us this happens all the time in places like Syria, Iraq, Lebanon. What is it they want us to do? These are invariably the same people who make posts about the evils of war and the US military having no right to be in the area. They're not saying we (western nations) should intervene and ramp up efforts to stop ISIS, boko haram, etc., but yet that we should feel guilty, nay post hashtags about praying for those people as well.

I'm upset with a lot of the "reaction" to this.

Offline El Barto

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2015, 04:49:48 PM »
I'm upset with a lot of the "reaction" to this.
I've mostly stayed beneath the fray today, but I found the obsession with body counts last night discomforting.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2015, 04:54:42 PM »
I'm with ya.  Some gal I used to work with posted some map today detailing where each disaster struck in Paris and I am like, WTF?  Yeah, I am sure everyone is ecstatic to relive that.   :tdwn :tdwn

Offline portnoy311

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Re: What is going on in Paris?
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2015, 04:59:13 PM »
I'm upset with a lot of the "reaction" to this.
I've mostly stayed beneath the fray today, but I found the obsession with body counts last night discomforting.

This happens with every tragedy. I genuinely think there is a large subset of people  who want to see body counts rise - not to watch the world burn - but so they can have a story of "I remember where I was when this major world event went down." Again, making a tragedy about them and giving fuck all a care about the victims. It's sickening.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 05:05:24 PM by portnoy311 »