Author Topic: The entitlement society is out of control  (Read 2319 times)

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2015, 09:39:32 AM »
b) the value of a college degree would plummet once anyone could get one for (relatively) free.

Honestly I feel like this has already happened. Most of my friends who graduated college are no better of than people who dropped out. Of course you could argue that this is due to the specific degree they pursued, that in turn only proves more how useless the degree is. Even if you do get a relevant degree, most companies expect everyone to have a degree, so it does nothing to set you apart from competition; they are looking at technical and communication skills directly anyway.

I was privileged enough to go to a private high school well known for its college prep success, and I got a college degree too. For my current job, either of those mattered. What mattered is that I proved myself/made a good impression in the interview. Then months after I'd be hired, I mentioned which schools I went to, and my boss was like, "Ohhh. That explains a lot," in reference to my success, like he didn't even consider it before. It seems like they don't even care about schooling anymore.

A degree is already expected of everyone, so the days of scenario B have already arrived. We might as well make college cheaper now after the fact. :lol

I understand very well this is just anecdotal evidence, but that the boss doesn't care isn't the whole story.  In my company, the "hiring manager" - who may or may not be the ultimate boss - gets a packet of 3 to 5 candidates.    Those candidates are vetted by a mix of computer algorithms and human reviewers in the HR/recruitment team, and I GUARANTEE YOU that the schooling played a factor in you even getting there.   The systems now are so efficient that they will scan submissions for word combinations and key phrases, and if you don't have the bare minimum in terms of requirements, you don't even get looked at by a human.  Then the human will make value judgments based on the content (is a degree from Harvard worth more than a degree from Stony Brook?   Is that high school diploma from Monroe High School worth less than the one from Philips Academy?) and, ladies and gentlemen, the whittling down process has begun.

I don't know; I'm of the opinion that all our choices count.  They all aggregate in some form or another to get us where we need to go.  And I don't think it is the worst advice in the world to tell our kids that more education is better, all other things being equal, and to be as good as you can be in the best school you can do it in, is something to be admired, not "pooh-poohed" as it seems to be so often.

I missed out on an job opportunity this year that if I had gotten it would have increased my salary by 3X. Had I not 'known' someone in the company I'd have never made it past the electronic screening process because I could not check the 'Bachelor's Degree' box off in the application.

My experience, industry knowledge and portfolio took me through two stages in the interview process where I ultimately was up against (16) other candidates that HAD Bachelors Degrees. I did not. I was told point blank that EVERYTHING about me was perfect for the position OTHER than the fact I did not have a Bachelors Degree and that they had to pass on me.

My contact told me that I needed to get a Bachelors Degree in "counting Marbles", anything....just as long as I could check mark the box. He said, unless you are applying for a high level CEO or management position rarely is the context of your Degree scrutinized.....but you NEED it just to be in consideration.

I've been back in school for about 5 months now to get my Bachelors Degree in Healthcare Management, one night a week and won't get my Bachelors Degree until summer of 19'....but for me to make any considerable pay jump I 'need' it. It's just the nature of the beast.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2015, 05:51:10 PM »
Education is important. I would hope whatever job grabs me would want people with degrees. I don't think that makes me elitist.

Offline cramx3

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2015, 06:02:26 PM »
Sorry gmiller, assuming you meet other requirements but the check in the box makes me think of Stadler and his algorithms for a resume even making it to a real person's eyes. 

A degree is important and your example shows that there is value in a degree, but sometimes it takes more than a check in the box to realize a qualified employee.  My boss's boss and the director of my group both don't have college degrees... in a company that mostly only hires ivy leaguers.  They constantly joke whenever anyone says "I went to blah blah" they like to look for people who have "what it takes" I know that is vague.  But that is rare these days, there's a lot of automation in the process now (just like everything else) and if you can't click a box then the algorithm rejects you. 

It's great you are a smart man and went back to school.  You know what it takes, and that's on top of being a father and everything else in life.  Good luck man, I really hope the investment in yourself works out and you can get that job.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2015, 06:55:02 AM »
Education is important. I would hope whatever job grabs me would want people with degrees. I don't think that makes me elitist.

I'm working with a group of people at work to change the hiring culture where I work. We want to hire based on culture fit. We'd rather hire good people are willing and able to learn anything than an expert in one area. This becoming more popular now, and while it devalues education a bit, I feel strongly that you should do what is best for the company. All a degree shows is that you have some commitment to finishing a task. It doesn't mean you're smart or easy to work with.

Offline jammindude

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2015, 07:40:50 AM »
Just as a thought. The construction trades need people badly.

An journeyman electrician in WA non-Union makes about 68K and union contract is about 86K. That's with a 5 year apprenticeship. And a huge quantity of construction workers never graduated HS.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2015, 12:24:23 PM »
Sorry gmiller, assuming you meet other requirements but the check in the box makes me think of Stadler and his algorithms for a resume even making it to a real person's eyes. 

A degree is important and your example shows that there is value in a degree, but sometimes it takes more than a check in the box to realize a qualified employee.  My boss's boss and the director of my group both don't have college degrees... in a company that mostly only hires ivy leaguers.  They constantly joke whenever anyone says "I went to blah blah" they like to look for people who have "what it takes" I know that is vague.  But that is rare these days, there's a lot of automation in the process now (just like everything else) and if you can't click a box then the algorithm rejects you. 

With the deepest of respect for Gmiller, who said he was "the perfect candidate except for the degree", I would venture that of the other 16 candidates there was at least one who looked also like "the perfect candidate" except he HAD the degree.  That's the point here:  there will always be ONE example of the person who is so head and shoulders above but doesn't have the degree that it skews the analysis.  In 99% of cases, these companies get 5 or 10 resumes that are for all intents and purposes identical, and at that point you are talking minor points of distinction.  And for better or worse, one of them is "degree".    Why would we ever expect these companies to settle?   They are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars on each hire (google it; a company typically expends three times your salary on you, as a rule).   What sane person would reasonably expect them to cut corners in that situation?

Offline Stadler

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2015, 12:26:11 PM »
Education is important. I would hope whatever job grabs me would want people with degrees. I don't think that makes me elitist.

I'm working with a group of people at work to change the hiring culture where I work. We want to hire based on culture fit. We'd rather hire good people are willing and able to learn anything than an expert in one area. This becoming more popular now, and while it devalues education a bit, I feel strongly that you should do what is best for the company. All a degree shows is that you have some commitment to finishing a task. It doesn't mean you're smart or easy to work with.

Of course not.  But I'll bet you two tickets to the next DT tour that as you morph that culture, the level of candidate will increase, and you will ultimately find yourself back in the same boat:  two candidates who fit the culture perfectly, one with a degree and one without, and you will be searching for discerning traits that can help you make the decision.  Lo and behold it will be back to the degree. 

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2016, 08:54:00 AM »
Sorry gmiller, assuming you meet other requirements but the check in the box makes me think of Stadler and his algorithms for a resume even making it to a real person's eyes. 

A degree is important and your example shows that there is value in a degree, but sometimes it takes more than a check in the box to realize a qualified employee.  My boss's boss and the director of my group both don't have college degrees... in a company that mostly only hires ivy leaguers.  They constantly joke whenever anyone says "I went to blah blah" they like to look for people who have "what it takes" I know that is vague.  But that is rare these days, there's a lot of automation in the process now (just like everything else) and if you can't click a box then the algorithm rejects you. 

It's great you are a smart man and went back to school.  You know what it takes, and that's on top of being a father and everything else in life.  Good luck man, I really hope the investment in yourself works out and you can get that job.

Oh yeah....it was admitted to me that the company I applied for immediately identifies those who don't have a bachelor's degree and they aren't even considered. The only reason I made it past that stage was because of my relationship with a Regional Manager that I work with now. He made a phone call and got me through that barrier. I get it, I really do, but I think companies then miss out on people like me who are more than 'qualified' in every other way but can't check mark that box.

Not to 'brag'...but one thing that I am really good at is personal interaction. Speaking and dealing with people and personalities. I spent from age 18-26ish managing restaurants and sports bars and learned 'people' and how to 'deal' with the different personalities out there. Now, I apply that to working with different contractors, architects, inspectors....managers...you name it. But that 'skill' is not something that you are taught or can be taught. You either have or you don't. And there are many other things that you can't just learn or be taught while getting a bachelors degree.

Handling stress?? Prioritizing numerous things of which all of them need to be done now?? Speaking to a room of 20 people, of which most are pay grades above you but YOU are the one they are listening to intently?? I understand the need for the degrees so a company can 'prove' their worth on paper or protect themselves or whatever...but those same companies miss out on great employees while using those algorithms and hire complete duds in their place.

Funny thing is, I now work directly with the Installation Manager (the position I was going for) for that company on a couple projects and he seems to do an ok job....but just in my interactions with him I can't help but think to myself that I'd have been a much better choice for them  :lol
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2016, 03:13:56 PM »
I guess it's different when you are part of the hiring team for a company and have thousands of resumes and constantly interviewing people and whatnot that you have to set some standards before eyes hit the paper, but when you get down to a few candidates I just feel like it would never come down to college or not (or which college) because I feel other things like personality qualities would over ride "if everything were equal between them besides college" The question of who would I rather be stuck in a room with every day, it never comes down to I'd rather spend my time with a college graduate or not. I've only had small experiences with hiring and interviewing but when I read resumes of course I checked the education area out, but I always focussed and questioned the job experiences and knowledg

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2016, 04:02:47 PM »
I guess it's different when you are part of the hiring team for a company and have thousands of resumes and constantly interviewing people and whatnot that you have to set some standards before eyes hit the paper, but when you get down to a few candidates I just feel like it would never come down to college or not (or which college) because I feel other things like personality qualities would over ride "if everything were equal between them besides college" The question of who would I rather be stuck in a room with every day, it never comes down to I'd rather spend my time with a college graduate or not. I've only had small experiences with hiring and interviewing but when I read resumes of course I checked the education area out, but I always focussed and questioned the job experiences and knowledg

As someone who hires people I would say the job dictates this. There's always a combination you are looking for.  A big thing I look for is longevity in jobs.  People turn over too much these days and tend to level out on what they make because they never build a skill further or add to their skill set.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2016, 09:18:05 AM »
I get it, I really do, but I think companies then miss out on people like me who are more than 'qualified' in every other way but can't check mark that box.


Please read me carefully and understand what I am saying (because I don't want to offend you):  they aren't missing out on ANYTHING.  Perhaps there is a circumstance somewhere where ONE person who didn't have a degree got screened out, and there was not ONE other candidate that was qualified that otherwise applied, but that is rare.   In an economy like ours, where unemployment is high, and there are numbers of qualified people that are working below their abilities, there are more qualified people than there are positions.   To winnow that list down by screening is a risk they are willing to take, because it isn't a risk to them. 

I guess it's different when you are part of the hiring team for a company and have thousands of resumes and constantly interviewing people and whatnot that you have to set some standards before eyes hit the paper, but when you get down to a few candidates I just feel like it would never come down to college or not (or which college) because I feel other things like personality qualities would over ride "if everything were equal between them besides college" The question of who would I rather be stuck in a room with every day, it never comes down to I'd rather spend my time with a college graduate or not. I've only had small experiences with hiring and interviewing but when I read resumes of course I checked the education area out, but I always focussed and questioned the job experiences and knowledg

I think - at least with regards to my argument - this puts the process out of order.  I don't think anyone in an interview situation is sitting there thinking "Ah, this person has a college degree... nice!  Nice!"   It's not a conscious decision-maker.   What it is is a way of getting from 30 or 50 to 3 or 5.  At that point, all the things you say become true: it's then about personalities, it's about teamwork (if that is a necessary criteria), it's about culture.   
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 11:32:22 AM by Stadler »

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2016, 11:08:26 AM »
I get it, I really do, but I think companies then miss out on people like me who are more than 'qualified' in every other way but can't check mark that box.


Please read me carefully and understand what I am saying:  they aren't missing out on ANYTHING.  Perhaps there is a circumstance somewhere where ONE person who didn't have a degree got screened out, and there was not ONE other candidate that was qualified that otherwise applied, but that is rare.   In an economy like ours, where unemployment is high, and there are numbers of qualified people that are working below their abilities, there are more qualified people than there are positions.   To winnow that list down by screening is a risk they are willing to take, because it isn't a risk to them. 
 

Certainly, totally get it. That's why I was more upset with myself than anything else because it really was my own fault for not completing a Bachelor's Degree. I had continued to advance in my career without one at a pretty good pace and just figured that I really didn't 'need' one given I've been making a decent living. It took a bit for it to set in that in order for me to make that next 'jump' in my career it wasn't going to happen without a Bachelors Degree.

IMO, missing that job was the best thing that could have happened because it got me of my a$$, back into the classroom and lit a spark under my butt that I had let die out. It's back fully lit and I have a goal in my mind of where I want to be in 5 years.....and everyone who knows me well knows that once I have a goal and decide that I'm going to make something happen...well....I make it happen.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2016, 03:20:48 PM »
I get it, I really do, but I think companies then miss out on people like me who are more than 'qualified' in every other way but can't check mark that box.


Please read me carefully and understand what I am saying:  they aren't missing out on ANYTHING.  Perhaps there is a circumstance somewhere where ONE person who didn't have a degree got screened out, and there was not ONE other candidate that was qualified that otherwise applied, but that is rare.   In an economy like ours, where unemployment is high, and there are numbers of qualified people that are working below their abilities, there are more qualified people than there are positions.   To winnow that list down by screening is a risk they are willing to take, because it isn't a risk to them. 
 

Certainly, totally get it. That's why I was more upset with myself than anything else because it really was my own fault for not completing a Bachelor's Degree. I had continued to advance in my career without one at a pretty good pace and just figured that I really didn't 'need' one given I've been making a decent living. It took a bit for it to set in that in order for me to make that next 'jump' in my career it wasn't going to happen without a Bachelors Degree.

IMO, missing that job was the best thing that could have happened because it got me of my a$$, back into the classroom and lit a spark under my butt that I had let die out. It's back fully lit and I have a goal in my mind of where I want to be in 5 years.....and everyone who knows me well knows that once I have a goal and decide that I'm going to make something happen...well....I make it happen.

Good for you, that's the way it's supposed to be.  Motivate you to do what's necessary to get where you want to go in life.  You are not entitled to that job and you understand what you need to do to get there.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #83 on: January 05, 2016, 08:24:10 AM »

Good for you, that's the way it's supposed to be.  Motivate you to do what's necessary to get where you want to go in life.  You are not entitled to that job and you understand what you need to do to get there.

Now to work on the other 322,784,400 +/- (I'm excluding the 25 or so people that are reading this.  :)) people in the US.  :)   

Offline Chino

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #84 on: January 05, 2016, 12:13:41 PM »
I've been trying to fill out my annual employee self-evaluation documents for the last hour and a half. I hate doing this. It's broken up into 9 sections covering all different facets of my job, many of which have me repeating things (peer to peer communication is in four of them). I wish they'd give me a blank slate and just say "Tell us what you did this year. What went well? What didn't go do well? What do you want to improve on? What would you like to see management improve? What's your most ambitious work related goal going into 2016? Go".

Offline cramx3

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2016, 12:44:17 PM »
I just hating writing about myself like that in general.  Our reviews are much simpler, pretty much what you had requested.  Even then though I hate doing it.  I should be getting the info to start mine soon and then peer reviews, so annoying.

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2016, 10:28:08 AM »
She is not in the right, but wow the way that article is written pisses me off.

Offline cramx3

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #88 on: February 27, 2016, 11:28:00 AM »
Read that earlier this week, made me so mad.  Glad she got fired and also got flak from a lot of people.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #89 on: February 27, 2016, 11:33:45 AM »
,
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:16:11 PM by Calvin6s »
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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2016, 11:49:11 AM »
She is not in the right, but wow the way that article is written pisses me off.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. I agree with the gist of the article, but wow that writer is an asshole.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: The entitlement society is out of control
« Reply #91 on: February 29, 2016, 06:54:59 AM »
Lol, our country is so fucked.