Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?

[Chino]

I hope Starbucks doubles down next year and releases multiple holiday cups. You think Christians are pissed now? Imagine if they were given their $6 coffee in a blue cup with a candle on it rather than the red cup with the candy cane like they wanted.

You and I have been agreeing, or at least not vocally disagreeing, on a lot of things lately, so this had to have been inevitable.  But why the hate?  Why poke any group in the eye?   I'm not advocating the Christians point of view, but I don't get the idea of (socially) looking to piss off whole groups.   Let it die.

I'm not saying to do it with the intention of pissing anyone in particular off . If the purpose of this cup was to try and remain holiday neutral, I think it could go the other way as well while getting the same message across. I think it would be kind of cool to see a company acknowledge all of the holidays rather than avoid mentioning them. I'd like to see a company represent the muslims, the jews, the christians, the non-believers who still like Christmas, etc... I don't know. I kind of see the red cup as a cop out rather than trying to send a positive message. By choosing a solid red, they are basically acknowledging that the American public is a bunch of whiny cry babies.

[Stadler]

I hope Starbucks doubles down next year and releases multiple holiday cups. You think Christians are pissed now? Imagine if they were given their $6 coffee in a blue cup with a candle on it rather than the red cup with the candy cane like they wanted.

You and I have been agreeing, or at least not vocally disagreeing, on a lot of things lately, so this had to have been inevitable.  But why the hate?  Why poke any group in the eye?   I'm not advocating the Christians point of view, but I don't get the idea of (socially) looking to piss off whole groups.   Let it die.

I'm not saying to do it with the intention of pissing anyone in particular off . If the purpose of this cup was to try and remain holiday neutral, I think it could go the other way as well while getting the same message across. I think it would be kind of cool to see a company acknowledge all of the holidays rather than avoid mentioning them. I'd like to see a company represent the muslims, the jews, the christians, the non-believers who still like Christmas, etc... I don't know. I kind of see the red cup as a cop out rather than trying to send a positive message. By choosing a solid red, they are basically acknowledging that the American public is a bunch of whiny cry babies.

Ok.  Gotcha.   

EDIT:  That was sincere, not sarcastic. I didn't fully understand your point the first time.

[portnoy311]

The logistics of having so many different cups might not make business sense. I think a red cup is fine personally. Only those looking to be offended have an issue with a red cup. Starbucks is selling you coffee, it's not their job to wish everyone a happy/merry xxx, much less the job of their cups.

[Chino]

True.

I just googled prior years' Starbucks cups. I'm now starting to think that most of this was rooted in keeping costs down. When I used to work in the grocery store, we saw this kind of thing happening all the time, especially once the economy tanked. Tropicana was the worst. Every shade of color you add to anything increases its cost. Even if it's the same amount of ink, more colors equals more expensive. Looking at Starbuck's holiday cups over the years (2010 must have cost a fortune), you can see they've been working toward a simpler/cheaper design pretty much since they started. These cups have to be a designed and custom printed each season, that alone would make them more expensive, start adding in all the flare and you're into some serious coin.

Starbucks sells 4,000,000 cups of coffee per day. Assuming five weeks of the holiday promotion (might even be longer than that), Starbucks needs to print 140,000,000 of these special addition cups. If Starbucks can save $0.03 per cup by not having extra colors (Tropicana saved almost $0.09 per carton by simplifying their color scheme), that's an extra $4,200,000 some hire ups can stick in their pockets. 

2009


2010


2011


2012


2013


2014


2015


People hated the new Tropicana cartons because it made it too hard to differentiate which flavor was which.

[portnoy311]

Lol, nothing says "Merry Christmas" and respects our "Judeo-Christian"* values like a snowman or a dog riding a sled. And obviously hope is a uniquely Christian trait.


*I don't think I've ever heard this term used intelligently.

[Chino]

Lol, nothing says "Merry Christmas" and respects our "Judeo-Christian"* values like a snowman or a dog riding a sled.

Idk about you, but that seemed pretty satanic to me. That dog and person are basically having sex with each other as they slide down down the hill. It's clearly supposed to represent America going downhill and how gay marriage will inevitably lead to bestiality.

[El Barto]

True.

I just googled prior years' Starbucks cups. I'm now starting to think that most of this was rooted in keeping costs down. When I used to work in the grocery store, we saw this kind of thing happening all the time, especially once the economy tanked. Tropicana was the worst. Every shade of color you add to anything increases its cost. Even if it's the same amount of ink, more colors equals more expensive. Looking at Starbuck's holiday cups over the years (2010 must have cost a fortune), you can see they've been working toward a simpler/cheaper design pretty much since they started. These cups have to be a designed and custom printed each season, that alone would make them more expensive, start adding in all the flare and you're into some serious coin.

Starbucks sells 4,000,000 cups of coffee per day. Assuming five weeks of the holiday promotion (might even be longer than that), Starbucks needs to print 140,000,000 of these special addition cups. If Starbucks can save $0.03 per cup by not having extra colors (Tropicana saved almost $0.09 per carton by simplifying their color scheme), that's an extra $4,200,000 some hire ups can stick in their pockets. 

2009


2010


2011


2012


2013


2014


2015


People hated the new Tropicana cartons because it made it too hard to differentiate which flavor was which.

They're not saving anything on those cups. If tropicana saved money, it was because they were leaving so much more unprinted area (everything white). It's not the color(s) that you use, but the amount of coverage. Printing an entire cup red costs the same amount as printing the entire cup red, dark red, and green. I'd bet money that the last three cost more to print than the first three.

[Calvin6s]

It's not the color(s) that you use, but the amount of coverage. Printing an entire cup red costs the same amount as printing the entire cup red, dark red, and green. I'd bet money that the last three cost more to print than the first three.

I'm inclined to agree with you.  The color printing process has changed dramatically in the last 10 to 20 years.  Coverage is also dealing with not just square cm, but the effect of the base color on the printed color.

Design used to be expensive as well, but *kids* will come into my office and design incredible graphics for my business in real time on their laptops.  And working outside your own office tends to make you less efficient.  The finish had more effect (matte, gloss, etc) than the amount of colors.  When I mentioned "is it cheaper if we use less colors?" about ten years ago, it was almost like a whole "oh.  That's so cute, grandpa."

The fact that they are worried about a Santa Claus or Snowman being offensive is the underlying problem.  It is their right to do whatever they want, but as the left is so fond of saying: that doesn't mean you are free of the consequences.

Most people don't care.  The offense is not a #blm movement.  It is the  and moving on.  Don't be offended by the offended's offense of the offense.

[Calvin6s]

I'm reading about a handful of malls that replaced the Christmas trees around Santa with a glacier instead.

If your original statement is true, creating a specialized cup for a "handful of malls" is the more expensive route, not the cheaper one.

[Chino]

They're not saving anything on those cups. If tropicana saved money, it was because they were leaving so much more unprinted area (everything white). It's not the color(s) that you use, but the amount of coverage. Printing an entire cup red costs the same amount as printing the entire cup red, dark red, and green. I'd bet money that the last three cost more to print than the first three.

Unless the Tropicana rep I used to do business with didn't know what he was talking about, I have to respectfully disagree. I remember very clearly him saying the reason for the switch had everything to do with fewer colors translating to cheaper production costs.

I'm reading about a handful of malls that replaced the Christmas trees around Santa with a glacier instead.

If your original statement is true, creating a specialized cup for a "handful of malls" is the more expensive route, not the cheaper one.

The mall thing I mentioned had absolutely nothing to do with Starbucks.

[cramx3]

Apparently the malls with lights and glaciers are in NJ, I saw some local news about people upset with them. 

[Implode]

Thought you guys might enjoy this:

[El Barto]

They're not saving anything on those cups. If tropicana saved money, it was because they were leaving so much more unprinted area (everything white). It's not the color(s) that you use, but the amount of coverage. Printing an entire cup red costs the same amount as printing the entire cup red, dark red, and green. I'd bet money that the last three cost more to print than the first three.

Unless the Tropicana rep I used to do business with didn't know what he was talking about, I have to respectfully disagree. I remember very clearly him saying the reason for the switch had everything to do with fewer colors translating to cheaper production costs.

In all honestly, my money is on the former. Less color equals lower production cost. Even lighter colors might help a wee bit. Note that the newer carton has that wimpy, light orange and light green; that's saved them a penny or two. Fewer colors is largely irrelevant. In the case of the Starubuck's cups, those first four are showing a whole lot of plain white, and all cost a lot less to print than that pretty, deep red cup at the bottom.

[El Barto]

Now this is just a wonderful confluence of wrongness.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/13/pastor-tells-kids-waiting-to-see-santa-that-doesnt-exist.html

I'm an agnostic who enjoys Christmas for secular reasons and loves laughing at the masses who continually miss the point with the whole thing, but I really have no idea who to laugh at more in this case. The pastor's obviously correct in his assertion, even if not in his beliefs, but he's still being a dick. The parents are at the mall engaging in the true meaning of Christmas and don't want to hear any of that Jesus shit in front of their kids. And I don't have a clue how this jibes with the FOX "war on Christmas" dog whistling. The whole thing's a hoot.

[kingshmegland]

Right.  I enjoy a hot dog but don't tell me what's in it. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Actually having Santa behind a glacier sounds more better. It's like your visiting Santa in his own home at the North Pole.

If the company said that to me when asked why the scene change then I'd be more happy, but if it's the we had to because "we can't offend anyone" then I'm like..."CONFORMIST"

[7th]

Like most of our social cohesion problems these days, the real issue is a glaring double standard in the PC rulebook:

1. Anything Christian or Christmas is open game for being labeled as offensive, removed, replaced, intellectually ignored, and undeserving of any respect.
2. Anything non-Judeo-Christian is protected constitutionally, intellectually acceptable, and important to respect.
   
I'm not religious so I don't have a horse in the race, but anyone who denies this double standard isn't paying very good attention.

[Adami]

Like most of our social cohesion problems these days, the real issue is a glaring double standard in the PC rulebook:

1. Anything Christian or Christmas is open game for being labeled as offensive, removed, replaced, intellectually ignored, and undeserving of any respect.
2. Anything non-Judeo-Christian is protected constitutionally, intellectually acceptable, and important to respect.
   
I'm not religious so I don't have a horse in the race, but anyone who denies this double standard isn't paying very good attention.

You lost us at your hyperbole. If you said some Christian/Christmas stuff is etc etc, then sure. Same with your second sentence.

[7th]

Like most of our social cohesion problems these days, the real issue is a glaring double standard in the PC rulebook:

1. Anything Christian or Christmas is open game for being labeled as offensive, removed, replaced, intellectually ignored, and undeserving of any respect.
2. Anything non-Judeo-Christian is protected constitutionally, intellectually acceptable, and important to respect.
   
I'm not religious so I don't have a horse in the race, but anyone who denies this double standard isn't paying very good attention.

You lost us at your hyperbole. If you said some Christian/Christmas stuff is etc etc, then sure. Same with your second sentence.

You must be kidding right?  My whole point is invalid because I used the word "anything" instead of "some"?  This is one of the major flaws in modern debate.  Redirecting to semantics when you can't argue the point being made.  "My hyperbole" also implies that I am intentionally exaggerating or sensationalizing which I wasn't.  But, in a way you proved my point for me.  I couldn't even suggest the problem of Christian persecution without being written off.  Merry Fucking Christmas.

[Adami]

They are different points. So yes, it matters quite a bit.

Are SOME Christian things open game for being labeled as offensive or replace or intellectually ignored? Sure. Just like some aspects of...anything whatsoever. Are all Christian things disrespected? Under no circumstance.
Are SOME non-Christian things protected constitutionally? You betcha. Is everything non Christian protected? Hell no.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

Also this has absolutely nothing to do with Christian persecution. It seems you ignored what we're discussing and just yelled that Christians are under attack in a country that is almost entirely Christian to one degree or another.

[Prog Snob]

I'm not going to defend either side but let's be real. A religion with billions of members, plus a sect with their palace in Rome, CANNOT complain about being repressed. That's just fuckin' stupid.

[Adami]

I'm not going to defend either side but let's be real. A religion with billions of members, plus a sect with their palace in Rome, CANNOT complain about being repressed. That's just fuckin' stupid.

Oh they can, it just depends where. Can they complain about being repressed in Saudi Arabia? Yup. Egypt? Yup. Many southern Asian countries? Yup.

America or almost any European country? That's a bit tougher.

[Prog Snob]

I'm not going to defend either side but let's be real. A religion with billions of members, plus a sect with their palace in Rome, CANNOT complain about being repressed. That's just fuckin' stupid.

Oh they can, it just depends where. Can they complain about being repressed in Saudi Arabia? Yup. Egypt? Yup. Many southern Asian countries? Yup.

America or almost any European country? That's a bit tougher.

I'm speaking in response to 7th's comments - or anyone here in the US who claims Christianity is under attack or whatever sensationalism they use. But yes, there are some countries where they should just hide.

[Adami]

I'm not going to defend either side but let's be real. A religion with billions of members, plus a sect with their palace in Rome, CANNOT complain about being repressed. That's just fuckin' stupid.

Oh they can, it just depends where. Can they complain about being repressed in Saudi Arabia? Yup. Egypt? Yup. Many southern Asian countries? Yup.

America or almost any European country? That's a bit tougher.

I'm speaking in response to 7th's comments - or anyone here in the US who claims Christianity is under attack or whatever sensationalism they use. But yes, there are some countries where they should just hide.

Oh totally. I was going to make a comment about how, similarly, Jews can't claim to be repressed in Israel.....but that's no longer the case these days.

[Prog Snob]

I'm not going to defend either side but let's be real. A religion with billions of members, plus a sect with their palace in Rome, CANNOT complain about being repressed. That's just fuckin' stupid.

Oh they can, it just depends where. Can they complain about being repressed in Saudi Arabia? Yup. Egypt? Yup. Many southern Asian countries? Yup.

America or almost any European country? That's a bit tougher.

I'm speaking in response to 7th's comments - or anyone here in the US who claims Christianity is under attack or whatever sensationalism they use. But yes, there are some countries where they should just hide.

Oh totally. I was going to make a comment about how, similarly, Jews can't claim to be repressed in Israel.....but that's no longer the case these days.

Ironically enough, in the one place they should feel enlightened and uplifted, they have to fear for their lives.

[Adami]

Oh I was referring to how the Jewish government and the orthodox sects are becoming violently anti-non-orthodox Jews. Nothing to do with non-Jews.

[7th]

I'm not going to defend either side but let's be real. A religion with billions of members, plus a sect with their palace in Rome, CANNOT complain about being repressed. That's just fuckin' stupid.

Oh they can, it just depends where. Can they complain about being repressed in Saudi Arabia? Yup. Egypt? Yup. Many southern Asian countries? Yup.

America or almost any European country? That's a bit tougher.

Judeo Christian persecution is alive and well in the USA.  People are losing their jobs and whatnot.  PCism has made it so if you mention being a Christian you can "offend" others or make them "uncomfortable" and lose your job:

https://www.gofundme.com/ChrisRoutsonFamily

^^ Not an isolated occurrence.  This kind of shit is happening a lot these days.  I hear about it all the time as it's all over every news source other than CNN and NYT.  Go figure.

[Adami]

I dunno dude, that sounds more like he was trying to convert or harass some lesbians. And that is not being fired for being Christian.

And yes, you CAN actually be fired for offending your co-workers and making the workplace very uncomfortable. Being religious doesn't make you do those things, doing those things does. So don't pick a guy who actively harassed and insulted others and say he was fired for "mentioning being a Christian". Because I highly doubt you'll find many cases of a dude actually being fired for saying "oh by the way I'm a Christian".

[pogoowner]

I'm not going to defend either side but let's be real. A religion with billions of members, plus a sect with their palace in Rome, CANNOT complain about being repressed. That's just fuckin' stupid.

Oh they can, it just depends where. Can they complain about being repressed in Saudi Arabia? Yup. Egypt? Yup. Many southern Asian countries? Yup.

America or almost any European country? That's a bit tougher.

Judeo Christian persecution is alive and well in the USA.  People are losing their jobs and whatnot.  PCism has made it so if you mention being a Christian you can "offend" others or make them "uncomfortable" and lose your job:

https://www.gofundme.com/ChrisRoutsonFamily

^^ Not an isolated occurrence.  This kind of shit is happening a lot these days.  I hear about it all the time as it's all over every news source other than CNN and NYT.  Go figure.

So he shared an anti-gay movie with a lesbian co-worker, got a warning about it, and then chose to preach at another lesbian co-worker, who also complained.

Edit: Adami answered this much better than I did.

[Prog Snob]

I'm not going to defend either side but let's be real. A religion with billions of members, plus a sect with their palace in Rome, CANNOT complain about being repressed. That's just fuckin' stupid.

Oh they can, it just depends where. Can they complain about being repressed in Saudi Arabia? Yup. Egypt? Yup. Many southern Asian countries? Yup.

America or almost any European country? That's a bit tougher.

Judeo Christian persecution is alive and well in the USA.  People are losing their jobs and whatnot.  PCism has made it so if you mention being a Christian you can "offend" others or make them "uncomfortable" and lose your job:

https://www.gofundme.com/ChrisRoutsonFamily

^^ Not an isolated occurrence.  This kind of shit is happening a lot these days.  I hear about it all the time as it's all over every news source other than CNN and NYT.  Go figure.

If you look hard enough, you'll find an incident to cover just about every situation possible. That doesn't mean there's a war against Xtianity.

[Adami]

However, in fear of becoming like the white guy who claims that racism is no longer a problem, as a non-Christian, I'll bow out of this particular convo. If you guys want to talk about anti-Jewish prejudice, I'll magically reappear.

:superdude

[7th]

I dunno dude, that sounds more like he was trying to convert or harass some lesbians. And that is not being fired for being Christian.

And yes, you CAN actually be fired for offending your co-workers and making the workplace very uncomfortable. Being religious doesn't make you do those things, doing those things does. So don't pick a guy who actively harassed and insulted others and say he was fired for "mentioning being a Christian". Because I highly doubt you'll find many cases of a dude actually being fired for saying "oh by the way I'm a Christian".

So you are saying the corporations should dictate what acceptable speech is and who can and cannot say it?  Hmmm...  Funny how the double standards always seem to spawn new double standards.  Bottom line, people who think they can police other's thoughts and words are playing a fool's game that leads to *true* fascism.  You wanna support PCism->fascism, don't forget who warned you when you happen to say the wrong thing to the wrong person.

 

[eric42434224]

I dunno dude, that sounds more like he was trying to convert or harass some lesbians. And that is not being fired for being Christian.

And yes, you CAN actually be fired for offending your co-workers and making the workplace very uncomfortable. Being religious doesn't make you do those things, doing those things does. So don't pick a guy who actively harassed and insulted others and say he was fired for "mentioning being a Christian". Because I highly doubt you'll find many cases of a dude actually being fired for saying "oh by the way I'm a Christian".

So you are saying the corporations should dictate what acceptable speech is and who can and cannot say it?  Hmmm...  Funny how the double standards always seem to spawn new double standards.  Bottom line, people who think they can police other's thoughts and words are playing a fool's game that leads to *true* fascism.  You wanna support PCism->fascism, don't forget who warned you when you happen to say the wrong thing to the wrong person.

So you are saying we should be able to say whatever we want at our job with no consequenses?  Interesting....

[Prog Snob]

I dunno dude, that sounds more like he was trying to convert or harass some lesbians. And that is not being fired for being Christian.

And yes, you CAN actually be fired for offending your co-workers and making the workplace very uncomfortable. Being religious doesn't make you do those things, doing those things does. So don't pick a guy who actively harassed and insulted others and say he was fired for "mentioning being a Christian". Because I highly doubt you'll find many cases of a dude actually being fired for saying "oh by the way I'm a Christian".

So you are saying the corporations should dictate what acceptable speech is and who can and cannot say it?  Hmmm...  Funny how the double standards always seem to spawn new double standards.  Bottom line, people who think they can police other's thoughts and words are playing a fool's game that leads to *true* fascism.  You wanna support PCism->fascism, don't forget who warned you when you happen to say the wrong thing to the wrong person.

So you are saying we should be able to say whatever we want at our job with no consequenses?  Interesting....

Damn, Eric. Are we actually in agreeance for once? Quick, one of us needs to change our opinion. This can't happen.

[eric42434224]

I dunno dude, that sounds more like he was trying to convert or harass some lesbians. And that is not being fired for being Christian.

And yes, you CAN actually be fired for offending your co-workers and making the workplace very uncomfortable. Being religious doesn't make you do those things, doing those things does. So don't pick a guy who actively harassed and insulted others and say he was fired for "mentioning being a Christian". Because I highly doubt you'll find many cases of a dude actually being fired for saying "oh by the way I'm a Christian".

So you are saying the corporations should dictate what acceptable speech is and who can and cannot say it?  Hmmm...  Funny how the double standards always seem to spawn new double standards.  Bottom line, people who think they can police other's thoughts and words are playing a fool's game that leads to *true* fascism.  You wanna support PCism->fascism, don't forget who warned you when you happen to say the wrong thing to the wrong person.

So you are saying we should be able to say whatever we want at our job with no consequenses?  Interesting....

Damn, Eric. Are we actually in agreeance for once? Quick, one of us needs to change our opinion. This can't happen.

Dont get all lovey dovey with me Prog.  We are both bound to be rational and logical in the same thread sooner or later.