Author Topic: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?  (Read 1685 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 18239
  • Gender: Male
I'm reading about a handful of malls that replaced the Christmas trees around Santa with a glacier instead. This might be one of the most retarded things I've ever seen. I can totally understand why a mall might be apprehensive to not want to appear to be shoving a particular religion's holiday down everyone's throats, but do the Christmas trees really do that? If anything, wouldn't having a Santa present to begin with sort of be doing that regardless of what you surround him with?

I'm not suggesting we kill Santa. I actually really like Christmas (minus the gifting) and just treat it as a general 'be with and enjoy your family' kind of day.

Offline lordxizor

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2437
  • Gender: Male
  • and that is the truth.
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2015, 06:37:22 AM »
I think it's time we officially admit there are two different celebrations called Christmas. One celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ and should not be celebrated via any sort of government agency. Nativity displays are included in this holiday. The other Christmas contains Santa, Christmas trees, consumerism, gift giving, Christmas lights, etc. There is absolutely nothing religious about this celebration and public displays are just fine. I'd love it if we changed the name of the non-religious version, but I don't see that happening.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Whiskey Bent and Hell Bound
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39621
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Dad 1943-2010
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 02:43:04 PM »
I am a lifelong Christian, but if I hear about one more Christmas-related "controversy" I am going to cloud up and rain all over someone.

Have you heard this ruckus about Starbucks and their Christmas cups?  FFS

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17763
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 03:11:29 PM »
Quote
Starbucks removed Christmas from their cups because they hate Jesus
:rollin
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13762
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2015, 03:37:04 PM »
Really not a fan of this.  Everyone call the PC police because "christ" is in "christmas".  Seriously, people need to find something better to do than to ruin things for everyone else and stop getting offended over everything.  No one forces you to celebrate Christmas and be happy you (or most people) get a paid day off of work at least.

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2015, 05:34:38 PM »
The Starbucks thing is hilarious. That one ex-pastor turned youtube "star" going on about how he "tricked" Starbucks because he said his name was "Merry Christmas" and advocating others to do the same is so pathetic. Not to mention, he's actually telling people to give Starbucks service.

There is no war on Christmas, there is no war on Christianity. These people really got to get over themselves.

Offline Implode

  • Lord of the Squids
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5343
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 05:38:47 PM »
The thing that has me all confused about this is that I've never once heard of or seen a real person that is offended by seeing Christmas somewhere. I have no idea why companies are even doing this or at least where the pressure is coming from.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 06:06:13 PM by Implode »

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 05:53:06 PM »
Well, Starbucks still has a Christmas Blend (apparently... I don't drink coffee). More, they're just trying to make as much profit as possible while being applicable to everyone. Hell, their CEO is Jewish. If their market research shows they can make more profit by using blanket marketing instead of latching onto Christmas, more power to them.

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13762
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2015, 06:10:38 PM »
The thing that has me all confused about this is that I've never once heard of or seen a real person that is offended by seeing Christmas somewhere. I have no idea why companies are even doing this or at least where the pressure is coming from.

This is actually the case for me as well.  I have never once actually seen someone or heard someone first hand complain about anything Christmas related.  I only hear about it through the media. 

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2015, 06:16:45 PM »
I'd love it if we changed the name of the non-religious version, but I don't see that happening.

Oh, please, no.

Most people I know are not religious, enjoy all that is Christmas and have absolutely no problem with anything related to it.  It is strange to see the 180 where we used to be worried about the commercialism instead of the good will to now where we seem to be saying "don't worry.  It is just commercialism and that's just fine."

I think Billionaires (but not Millionaires) are responsible for my happiness at Christmas.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17763
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 06:24:11 PM »
The thing that has me all confused about this is that I've never once heard of or seen a real person that is offended by seeing Christmas somewhere. I have no idea why companies are even doing this or at least where the pressure is coming from.

This is actually the case for me as well.  I have never once actually seen someone or heard someone first hand complain about anything Christmas related.  I only hear about it through the media. 
Yeah, the war on Christmas is half faux persecution and half corporate pussiness. The number of people who are so uptight that merry Christmas is offensive to them is completely negligible, but as we've seen with countless examples of the mob dictating terms, it's only the threat that matters. Group size is meaningless.

This is a different thing than nativity scenes, BTW. While Christmas is now a completely secular thing, planting a baby Jesus out in front of City Hall is a little troubling.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2015, 06:35:28 PM »
This is a different thing than nativity scenes, BTW. While Christmas is now a completely secular thing, planting a baby Jesus out in front of City Hall is a little troubling.

I find that more academic than troubling. 
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2015, 06:43:07 PM »
I agree with el Barto. A nativity scene has no business on government property. Christmas has ties to culture that have nothing to do with religion. Hell, it's basically a stolen pagan holiday anyway. I'm an atheist who loves Christmas. I don't have any use for nativity scenes. I'm nowhere near alone in that view, either.

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13762
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2015, 07:43:08 PM »
Agreed about the nativity scene, that's a very strong religious image and should be saved for Church's or someone's private property

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 7662
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2015, 08:37:14 PM »
Relevant...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrCoh9sQ28k

My favorite part is at 1:13.  :angel:
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - http://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2015, 11:00:39 PM »
There's no doubt Christmas came about from Saturnalia. But "Jesus probably hates you for celebrating it"? I couldn't care less about a judgment of a cartoon putting words into the mouth of a religious figure.

I'm gonna go ahead and keep celebrating the cultural tradition of Christmas. To hell with the "what it actually means" or if "Jesus probably hates [me] for celebrating it." I can't take that kind of attitude seriously.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Whiskey Bent and Hell Bound
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39621
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Dad 1943-2010
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2015, 08:40:29 AM »
Jesus doesn't hate you for anything.

Christmas is what it is.  Christians will celebrate certain aspects of it differently than non-Christians, but there is enough overlap that I have no idea why there is ever any controversy.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline The Dark Master

  • Posts: 856
  • Gender: Male
  • Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 08:44:22 AM »
There's no doubt Christmas came about from Saturnalia. But "Jesus probably hates you for celebrating it"? I couldn't care less about a judgment of a cartoon putting words into the mouth of a religious figure.

I'm gonna go ahead and keep celebrating the cultural tradition of Christmas. To hell with the "what it actually means" or if "Jesus probably hates [me] for celebrating it." I can't take that kind of attitude seriously.

To be fair, I don't think The Boondocks was actually advocating the whole "Jesus probably hates you for celebrating it" viewpoint; it was just pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians getting all hopped-up and emotional about the "true" meaning of Christmas when it's a pagan holiday that had a Christian meaning grafted on to it to make it more palatable to the early Church.   

Honestly, I'm in agreement with most in this thread.  Who cares what the "true" meaning of Christmas is?  It's just a day to party and exchange gifts and spend time with those close to you. Whatever god you choose to celebrate on that day is your choice.  Jesus, Odin, Saturn, Sol Invictus.  Just take your pick and enjoy yourself.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 08:56:44 AM by The Dark Master »

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 01:05:54 PM »
Sol Invictus? I'll definitely celebrate the recent FNM album this year!

Seriously though, I agree.

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 18239
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 01:09:40 PM »
This Starbucks thing is absolutely blowing my mind. Donald Trump's comments on it are laughable. I wonder if he's going to close the Starbucks in Trump Tower as part of the boycott?

"If I become president, we're going to say Merry Christmas again" ...  ::) ::) First amendment?

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2015, 01:33:46 PM »
This Starbucks thing is absolutely blowing my mind. Donald Trump's comments on it are laughable. I wonder if he's going to close the Starbucks in Trump Tower as part of the boycott?

"If I become president, we're going to say Merry Christmas again" ...  ::) ::) First amendment?

He's just using the means to organize  ;D
I thought we agreed Merry Christmas was, for the most part, benign.  I'd imagine his statement is more about being able to say it without having to worry if you did something wrong as opposed to being forced to say it.  Totally different things.

I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2015, 01:37:06 PM »
How does a president enforce that? I think it's just pandering to the religious right who actually thinks this is an issue.

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 18239
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2015, 01:46:39 PM »
This Starbucks thing is absolutely blowing my mind. Donald Trump's comments on it are laughable. I wonder if he's going to close the Starbucks in Trump Tower as part of the boycott?

"If I become president, we're going to say Merry Christmas again" ...  ::) ::) First amendment?

He's just using the means to organize  ;D
I thought we agreed Merry Christmas was, for the most part, benign.  I'd imagine his statement is more about being able to say it without having to worry if you did something wrong as opposed to being forced to say it.  Totally different things.

So basically what he's saying is that if he's elected president, the United States will continue to handle the holiday in the exact same fashion as it does now.

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2015, 01:50:06 PM »
I'm sure it is a mix of personal experience and pandering.

Because he obviously is a businessman, every time this year you usually want to acknowledge your employees, clients and vendors because that's what most people view Christmas as.  A time where giving is even more fun than receiving.  Even if its just a nice little card, you usually decide to stay away from "Christmas" because it only takes one to be offended.  Worse, they might not even tell you they are offended (but tell others).  Suddenly, a nice gesture is turned into anything but.

And it isn't like you can create something in the HR database that tracks their religion, even if the intent is to show respect to their customs and culture.  Then you have the "but how <insert religion> are they?"

And this is why we end up with the most boring of Christmas era cards.  When in reality, if somebody from the Jewish faith sent you a Jewish themed greeting, you should view it as sharing, not imposing.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2015, 02:14:05 PM »
Well a few things. First, when we're talking about public companies like Starbucks, they're just trying to appeal to literally everyone. Something like 20% of America doesn't celebrate Christmas, and Starbucks is just trying to ship as much coffee as possible. That's not an attack on Christmas or whatever, no matter how much guys like Hannity want it to be.

Second, too often the situation is boiled down to the straw man of the offended. Sure, there are probably people offended by everything. But the majority aren't offended by "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Chanukkah" or "Happy xxx". As much as they're just being excluded, and companies like Starbucks, again, just want to include everyone when they're trying to appeal to the masses. Way too often talking about "the offended" or "how easily people are offended" is just a way to undermine groups that aren't included, when really it's at the behest of the companies like Starbucks that look to include everyone, not complaints from "the offended."


edit: Also, Starbucks' CEO is Jewish. If he made every Starbucks cup say "Happy Chanukkah" I'd love to see the response of people like Hannity. But, for reasons I wrote above he wouldn't do that and I'm not suggesting he should.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 02:19:54 PM by portnoy311 »

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2015, 04:45:31 PM »
Trump is now suggesting a Starbucks boycott over the cups. I'm glad he's buying into this nonsense.

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2015, 05:06:49 PM »
I think Starbucks is acting more out of path of least resistance than marketing.

And it is also important to remember the recent history of Starbucks
Starbucks to encourage baristas to discuss race relations with customers
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2015, 05:12:17 PM »
I'm honestly  not sure what that has to do with anything. There's a perceived "war on Christmas" which is total nonsense, and even Trump is now buying into it. I don't see it being much different than a candidate running on an ultra-PC platform, that of course people would be pissed about. But here, it's Christmas, Christians, etc. that have to be tiptoed around.

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2015, 05:14:57 PM »
But here, it's Christmas, Christians, etc. that have to be tiptoed around.

I think you have it in reverse.  It is the use of Christmas (because it is Christian, except when its not) that has to be tiptoed around.  You are mistaking the response to PC backlash as the PC part.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2015, 05:21:10 PM »
That is literally just reversing my point and saying "nuh uh." People are ticked off over a fucking red cup from a company that does not only serve Christians, and whose CEO is a Jew. Because the red cup doesn't mention Christmas. Donald Trump is calling for a boycott because of the red cup. This anti-PC nonsense has gotten out of control. It's a red cup from a secular coffee chain. Jesus...

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 7326
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 07:58:42 AM »
Well a few things. First, when we're talking about public companies like Starbucks, they're just trying to appeal to literally everyone. Something like 20% of America doesn't celebrate Christmas, and Starbucks is just trying to ship as much coffee as possible. That's not an attack on Christmas or whatever, no matter how much guys like Hannity want it to be.

Second, too often the situation is boiled down to the straw man of the offended. Sure, there are probably people offended by everything. But the majority aren't offended by "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Chanukkah" or "Happy xxx". As much as they're just being excluded, and companies like Starbucks, again, just want to include everyone when they're trying to appeal to the masses. Way too often talking about "the offended" or "how easily people are offended" is just a way to undermine groups that aren't included, when really it's at the behest of the companies like Starbucks that look to include everyone, not complaints from "the offended."


edit: Also, Starbucks' CEO is Jewish. If he made every Starbucks cup say "Happy Chanukkah" I'd love to see the response of people like Hannity. But, for reasons I wrote above he wouldn't do that and I'm not suggesting he should.

The problem for is isn't JUST "PC" or "anti-PC".  It's this false notion that "everyone matters".   And I don't mean that in a "-phobic" way, because, grand scheme, everyone DOES matter.  But not every isolated incident has to be a tool to reinforce that, especially as you get to the smaller percentages.   "20%" is a high percentage (and I bet most people don't know that is a bigger slice of the population than African Americans, who are somewhere between 12% and 15% of the population).    But every TV show cast doesn't have to be made up of 81% Christian, 4% Jewish, 4% gay, <1% trans, 51% women, etc. for it to be acceptable.    This should not be about bullying others into certain behavior as a group.  I'm not even sure what the flap is at Starbucks, but they should be able to sell their coffee using whatever color cup they want, and it is up to us AS INDIVIDUALS (I don't buy into "organized boycotts"; it's just legalized bullying) to make the call, "Do I want my lime chai half caf latte with a twist of cinnamon in a red cup or a white cup?" without anyone else commenting on whether that red cup is pro- or anti-Christmas, or whether that white cup is racist or not. 

THAT'S the beef, at least with me.   

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 665
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 09:02:06 AM »
Sounds like you're agreeing with me really. I'm saying this isn't at all a "PC" issue, when certain groups of people are way too quick to be outraged at any perceived "PC slight." It's a red cup.

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 18239
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 09:06:39 AM »
I hope Starbucks doubles down next year and releases multiple holiday cups. You think Christians are pissed now? Imagine if they were given their $6 coffee in a blue cup with a candle on it rather than the red cup with the candy cane like they wanted.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 7326
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 09:13:00 AM »
Sounds like you're agreeing with me really. I'm saying this isn't at all a "PC" issue, when certain groups of people are way too quick to be outraged at any perceived "PC slight." It's a red cup.

No, I think I am agreeing with you.  I think it's just the tip of the iceberg, though.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 7326
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is there anything religious about a Christmas tree other than "Christ"?
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 09:14:31 AM »
I hope Starbucks doubles down next year and releases multiple holiday cups. You think Christians are pissed now? Imagine if they were given their $6 coffee in a blue cup with a candle on it rather than the red cup with the candy cane like they wanted.

You and I have been agreeing, or at least not vocally disagreeing, on a lot of things lately, so this had to have been inevitable.  But why the hate?  Why poke any group in the eye?   I'm not advocating the Christians point of view, but I don't get the idea of (socially) looking to piss off whole groups.   Let it die.