Author Topic: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination  (Read 1873 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2015, 01:04:16 PM »
Who is losing control?  The law has been on the books since 1964.  This is not a new law.

The difference here is that the religious party is Muslim.

And again, the religious accomodation only has to be made if it doesn't cause undue hardship to the employer.  The problem here was that the employer didn't even try.
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Offline jsbru

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2015, 02:01:34 PM »
Not only has the law been on the books since 1964, it was passed by both parties, and then amended and in a lot of ways expanded in 1991, signed into law by none other than George H. W. Bush.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2015, 02:38:17 PM »
I agree with Chino.  I'm not pointing at the law; I've already said, if a company said "I'm not hiring you because of that little beanie on your head" then they need to feel the wrath.   That's not this.   Whether it is "de minimis" or not, this is not a reasonably predictable thing.  It's one thing to have laws that are predictable and are reasonably complied with.   If I don't even know you are a Muslim, it's hard for me to discriminate against you.  But here we are talking about someone's arbitrary interpretation of what their faith must be getting to dictate how a business allocates it's drivers.   When the next Muslim comes in, it may be different.  At a certain point you cannot let the individual whims dictate how a company does their business.  That is VERY different than the intent of the original law.   

And that goes to the latest twist in the conversation; what's new is this new-fangled emphasis on the individual, and what the individual thinks is appropriate.   

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2015, 11:41:10 AM »
Well, the individual is the one who has religious views that have to be taken into account, according to the law.

All the owner has to do is show that such an accomodation would be an undue hardship.  If it really is an undue hardship, that shouldn't be hard to demonstrate.

But just "I'm not doing it because I'm an asshole and I don't think I should have to do it" is not a good reason, and I have no sympathy.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2015, 11:42:32 AM »
Well, the individual is the one who has religious views that have to be taken into account, according to the law.

All the owner has to do is show that such an accomodation would be an undue hardship.  If it really is an undue hardship, that shouldn't be hard to demonstrate.

But just "I'm not doing it because I'm an asshole and I don't think I should have to do it" is not a good reason, and I have no sympathy.

For the record, I wouldn't have sympathy in that case either.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2015, 10:08:57 PM »
Just something I'm curious about. If you have a Muslim employee and they take two or three prayer breaks throughout the work day, is it discrimination if you add an extra 30 minutes to their shift to make up for the time they weren't working?

Can we do the same for smokers who think it is their divine right to get a smoke break every hour?

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2015, 10:12:09 PM »
Can we do the same for smokers who think it is their divine right to get a smoke break every hour?

I hate smokers at work like |------------------------this much----------------------------|

Why do they get rewarded for bad behavior?
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2015, 11:36:34 PM »
Just something I'm curious about. If you have a Muslim employee and they take two or three prayer breaks throughout the work day, is it discrimination if you add an extra 30 minutes to their shift to make up for the time they weren't working?

Can we do the same for smokers who think it is their divine right to get a smoke break every hour?

I mean, I would be okay with this.  It's a fairly simple rule: employees don't get paid when they aren't working.  As long as that rule was applied uniformly, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  You could also go in the opposite direction and just offer everyone an equal amount of paid break time to do with as they please. 
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Offline Stadler

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2015, 08:15:23 AM »
As long as "as you please" doesn't mean clogging the front or side door with a cloud of your cigarette smoke, then polluting my cube air with your nasty stale, cigarette-smelling clothes.

I don't mind smoking, and I wouldn't ban it (other than at restaurants), and I actually LIKE the smell of a freshly burning cigarette, but if you don't think you fucking REEK after smoking one, you are still buzzin' from the nicotine hit.

Offline Chino

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2015, 08:22:53 AM »
Just something I'm curious about. If you have a Muslim employee and they take two or three prayer breaks throughout the work day, is it discrimination if you add an extra 30 minutes to their shift to make up for the time they weren't working?

Can we do the same for smokers who think it is their divine right to get a smoke break every hour?

I've never worked at a place when an employee was allowed to just go outside and smoke if they weren't clocked out for a break.

Online portnoy311

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2015, 01:17:53 PM »
Really? Every salaried job I've ever had allowed it.

Offline Chino

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2015, 01:25:22 PM »
Really? Every salaried job I've ever had allowed it.

I should have worded my comment better. Salaried jobs are different, at least the two I've been in. We don't clock in or out for anything. We can come and go as we please as long as we are in the meetings we're scheduled for and our stuff gets done. The only 'clocking' I do is on Friday afternoon when I fill out my hours for the week. As long as they add up to forty, that's all that matters.

I was talking more along the lines of retail positions I've held. The places where if you get two ten minute breaks and a lunch, you are swiping your time card eight times throughout the day. Those places never allowed anyone to just go out for a smoke.

Offline Implode

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2015, 06:11:27 PM »
I actually work for a tobacco company now, and it's so surreal to see people smoking in the building and on the job. I guess that's one way to solve the problem, but it's a bit annoying to smell cigarette smoke when walking down the cubicles. I don't see too many people doing it, but it's enough to smell throughout the day. Luckily the small IT room I work in is smoke free, and also every desk has a small electric air filter you can use.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2015, 07:25:40 PM »
That sounds awful.

There are a couple guys at my current job who take quite a few smoke breaks, but they are both salaried employees who work way more than their 40 hours, often times working through lunch while eating at their desk, so I have no beef with that. 

However, at the engineering company I worked at in my 20s, there were a handful of people who took smoke breaks literally every hour.  One guy I worked with was so pissed about it that he brought a magazine to work simply to go sit on the can for 20 minutes in the morning and afternoon, just to get back at them in some weird way. :lol :lol

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2015, 10:21:24 PM »
Really? Every salaried job I've ever had allowed it.

It is interesting that you bring this up because it made me recollect.  Most smoke breakers always seemed to be on the lower rung of the employment ladder.  So I looked it up, and my observations were correct.
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/resources/data/cigarette-smoking-in-united-states.html

There seemed to be a smokers generation of people born between 76 to 86.  My school peers had very few smokers (during education years or after).  But my younger brother's generation seemed loaded with them.  Lots of people from that generation frequently are walking around with a cigarette in their hand.  Very annoying with smoking breaks.

I'm sure everybody has tried a cigarette.  The strange thing is we've known it is bad for you for decades now.  And even people that are full time smokers usually admit they didn't like it at first.  How do people get addicted to something that is essentially an acquired taste?  It is like you have to try very hard to go down that crappy road.  All my vices, I liked the second I tried it.
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Offline Chino

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2015, 07:20:50 AM »
How do people get addicted to something that is essentially an acquired taste?  It is like you have to try very hard to go down that crappy road.  All my vices, I liked the second I tried it.

Pussy.

I'm being serious. I had smoked pot in high school but stayed away from cigs. I never had the slightest desire to try one. Within my first week of living on a college campus I found myself buying my first pack. Having a pack of cigs allowed me to go outside my building and socialize with new people. Go outside for a smoke and next thing you know, a girl is asking you if you have a light. I'd go out to a bar and going out to the smokers area put a lot of girls within talking distance for anywhere from 3-20 minutes. To a testosterone filled 19 year old, putting up with a harsh taste was worth getting laid. At least that's what I thought. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2015, 07:32:10 AM »
That sounds awful.

There are a couple guys at my current job who take quite a few smoke breaks, but they are both salaried employees who work way more than their 40 hours, often times working through lunch while eating at their desk, so I have no beef with that. 

However, at the engineering company I worked at in my 20s, there were a handful of people who took smoke breaks literally every hour.  One guy I worked with was so pissed about it that he brought a magazine to work simply to go sit on the can for 20 minutes in the morning and afternoon, just to get back at them in some weird way. :lol :lol

Was that me?   I'm actually seriously asking.  I worked at an engineering company in my 20's (while in college getting my engineering degree) and there were about four people that seemed to always be outside smoking.  There were a couple of us upstairs who didn't smoke, and I would joke about going on my "smoke break" when I went to the can.  I said it to be funny, not make a point, but still. 

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2015, 07:49:35 AM »
Pussy.
At first I thought you were giving an example of what is an acquired taste for some   :blush  We get very high brow and very PC in here don't we?

Quote
a girl is asking you if you have a light.
Those are some *hard* girls though.  The ones that look pretty good with makeup because the cigs keep them slim, but the minute they are completely out of makeup, you realize just how much they had on.  Bring crucifix.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Stadler

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2015, 08:34:55 AM »
How do people get addicted to something that is essentially an acquired taste?  It is like you have to try very hard to go down that crappy road.  All my vices, I liked the second I tried it.

Pussy.

I'm being serious. I had smoked pot in high school but stayed away from cigs. I never had the slightest desire to try one. Within my first week of living on a college campus I found myself buying my first pack. Having a pack of cigs allowed me to go outside my building and socialize with new people. Go outside for a smoke and next thing you know, a girl is asking you if you have a light. I'd go out to a bar and going out to the smokers area put a lot of girls within talking distance for anywhere from 3-20 minutes. To a testosterone filled 19 year old, putting up with a harsh taste was worth getting laid. At least that's what I thought.

Dude, I cannot give you one solid explanation why I am not a pack a day smoker.  I know it's a killer, I know I've said I hate the smell on others, I know that I wouldn't be thrilled with dating or marrying an active smoker (though I wouldn't turn down a great catch, like my wife, if she did), and I know they are expensive as SHIT, but when I lived in Philly, the idea of hanging out at a bar on Locust, and heading outside to have a smoke on a cool summer night with the waitresses or bartenders, watching the people walk by, talking to the pretty girls that walk by... bro, I'm all in.   

It's got a mystique still to this day that hasn't quite gone away despite the CANCER warnings and PSAs. 

I TOTALLY get why people smoke. 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2015, 11:04:09 AM »
I have never smoked cigarettes, but my wife smokes.

I do smoke cigars.
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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2015, 11:10:02 AM »
When I was 19 I smoked fairly often. I remember buying a pack one day then realizing, what the hell am I doing?!!? I threw them away.  I just fell into it socially and luckily was able to get out before it became an issue. But yeah, I can see the allure, even if health wise it's a truly dumb habit.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2015, 11:28:28 AM »
When I was 19 I smoked fairly often. I remember buying a pack one day then realizing, what the hell am I doing?!!? I threw them away.  I just fell into it socially and luckily was able to get out before it became an issue. But yeah, I can see the allure, even if health wise it's a truly dumb habit.

Thankfully, when and where I grew up, smokers were literally the losers.  Had I been born about 4 years later, that might have changed as all but one of my younger brothers became smokers (but only one still smokes).  But most importantly, as we all tried it (very young, I think around 7 or 8), we all hated it immensely.  As a comic strip, we all had ? clouds over our heads.  And we also knew it was a nearly 100% certainty we'd die of some type of horrible cancer from it.

Now if it had given us a good rush (instead of nausea and a headache) and it tasted good (instead of tasting like suffocation), then we might have not cared about the cancer when we were "ancient".  But we all stood around and said "I don't get it."  I believe we tried to act like it was cool at first, but we quickly broke down to confirm we all hated it.  The negatives were just too great.

It is like people that get hooked on cutting themselves.  What's the point?

I'd say maybe it is an east coast thing, but I think it just was so uncool for my generation.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2015, 07:09:15 PM »
That sounds awful.

There are a couple guys at my current job who take quite a few smoke breaks, but they are both salaried employees who work way more than their 40 hours, often times working through lunch while eating at their desk, so I have no beef with that. 

However, at the engineering company I worked at in my 20s, there were a handful of people who took smoke breaks literally every hour.  One guy I worked with was so pissed about it that he brought a magazine to work simply to go sit on the can for 20 minutes in the morning and afternoon, just to get back at them in some weird way. :lol :lol

Was that me?   I'm actually seriously asking.  I worked at an engineering company in my 20's (while in college getting my engineering degree) and there were about four people that seemed to always be outside smoking.  There were a couple of us upstairs who didn't smoke, and I would joke about going on my "smoke break" when I went to the can.  I said it to be funny, not make a point, but still.

LOL, nah, that wasn't you, unless you were around 40 then and are pushing 60 now (which would shock me).

Offline Stadler

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2015, 08:12:07 AM »
I'm 48, for what that is worth.

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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2015, 08:37:58 AM »
It is like people that get hooked on cutting themselves.  What's the point?

I'd say maybe it is an east coast thing, but I think it just was so uncool for my generation.
I think Chino and Stadler hit one compelling aspect (which was certainly true for me, as well). The social aspect is the one thing about smoking I truly miss. Also, some of us just enjoyed it. I seem to be immune to physical addiction, so I couldn't tell you what nicotine withdrawal feels like, but I smoked for about 15 years. For parts of that I'd smoke 1 or 2 a day and really enjoy them (when you don't smoke often there's a wonderful buzz that comes with). When I quit I'd occasionally buy a pack when traveling, due in large part to that social element. For a couple of years smoking was strictly an on-vacation thing. Now I just have no desire at all.
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Re: EEOC Sues Star Transport, Inc. for Religious Discrimination
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2015, 08:17:05 PM »
Someone mentioned cutting, that releases endorphins and centralizes pain to that spot, often times allowing the person to focus on that pain rather than their mental state. It's clearly not a healthy thing to do, and a symptom of mental distress more than anything. No one does it looking to have a good time.