Author Topic: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?  (Read 16006 times)

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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« on: October 05, 2015, 04:24:03 AM »
This is something I see quite a bit of in discussion of not just DT but prog in general: people justifying why they like a song or album because of its technical prowess, & leading that to its time signature changes, & conversely, it's also something used to demean a lot of simpler pop songs (not that some of them don't deserve it, I'm just saying). So I thought, how could I actually measure these time signature changes to compare with how highly regarded the songs are to see if there's a correlation & if so what is it.

But then I was like "fuck it, just count 'em".

So here we are.

This is the product of an evening of taking notes in front of songsterr guitar tabs & noting every time the time signature changed. I only did this with I&W but if you have the patience, you can try some of the others.

Here's the simple version:
1. Pull Me Under - 4
2. Another Day - 2
3. Take The Time - 18
4. Surrounded - 6
5. Metropolis Pt. 1: The Miracle & The Sleeper - 41
6. Under A Glass Moon - 13
7. Wait For Sleep - 24 (surprisingly enough)
8. Learning To Live - 81
Total - 189

Here's the more detailed version (warning: my notation doesn't make sense in a lot of places):
1. Pull Me Under
  start at 4/4
  11/8 last bar before 1st chorus
  change back to 4/4
  11/8 last bar before 2nd chorus
  change back to 4/4
2. Another Day
  start at 4/4
  2/4 last bar before 1st verse
  change back to 4/4
3. Take The Time
  start at 4/4
  5/4 guitar joins in on riff
  6/4 after 1 bar
  3/4 intro builds up
  3/16 last bar of buildup
  4/4 for main intro
  6/4 1st verse
  7/4 prechorus ("There is something that I feel")
  4/4 fast part before chorus onward
  3/4 that one bar in the chorus (after "But no-one can save you this time")
  change back to 4/4
  3/4 that bar in 2nd chorus
  change back to 4/4
  5/8 1st bar of guitar solo
  9/8 after that
  5/4 solo intensifies (don't know how else to put that)
  4/4 sudden drop in tempo + rest of solo
  3/4 that bar in 3rd chorus
  change back to 4/4 for rest of song
4. Surrounded
  start at 4/4
  6/4 "The shadow I've been hiding in has fled from me today"
  change back to 4/4
  9/8 when guitar comes in
  4/4 chorus ("By the candle stands a mirror")
  9/8 return to that opening guitar riff
  4/4 chorus ("Heaven must be more than this") + rest of song
5. Metropolis Pt. 1: The Miracle & The Sleeper
  start at 4/4
  alternate between 9/8 & 4/4 3 times for ("There's no more freedom") (counts as 6)
  alternate between 7/8 & 4/4 3 times for ("I was told") (counts as 6)
  alternate between 9/8 & 4/4 3 times for ("City's cold blood") (counts as 5)
  hold last alternation 25/16 instead of 4/4
  5/8 first bar of instrumental
  13/8 for start of instrumental
  6/8 do do dododo dododo
  4/4 super-ominous biuldup
  9/8 for one bar of that
  change back to 4/4
  8/8 double time part (duh)
  6/8 do dodo do, do do doo do
  9/8 that one part in The Dance Of Eternity opening
  7/8 TDOE opening bar 1
  9/8 TDOE opening bar 2
  7/8 TDOE opening bar 3
  19/16 TDOE opening bar 4
  7/8 the solo that that spirals into
  12/8 sudden drop in tempo
  9/8 4th bar of that
  12/8 super intense buildup
  11/8 for the solo ending the instrumental section 1st bar
  12/8 for the other bars
  14/8 for last bar
  5/8 for last note held
  3/4 beginning of ending
  4/4 guitars come in for ending
6. Under A Glass Moon
  starts at 4/4
  6/4 calms down before verse 1 + verse 1 itself
  4/4 chorus
  5/4 when it returns to that main riff but goes offtime for 1 bar
  change back to 4/4
  7/8 last bar before verse 2
  4/4 verse 2 + chorus
  11/4 immediately after chorus 2
  5/4 bass solo
  4/4 guitar solo
  7/8 keyboard solo + intro to it
  4/4 chords rising
  7/4 dominant riff after that
  4/4 chorus + rest of song
7. Wait For Sleep
  cycles 5/4 for 3 bars, 4/8 for 1, 6/4 for 3 & 4/8 for 1, 2.5 times minus first (counts as 9)
  6/8 last line of verse 1 + chorus
  cycle those once for coming back to riff (counts as 4)
  6/8 for verse 2 onward
  cycle pattern twice for outro (counts as 8)
  6/8 for slowing down to final chord
8. Learning To Live
  start at 15/8
  7/4 heavy part of intro
  10/4 when it raises a note throughout (1st bar)
  9/4 bars 2-4
  7/4 bars 5-8
  15/8 transition to intro keyboard solo
  7/4 into keyboard solo (bars 1&2)
  13/8 bar 3
  7/4 bar 4
  13/8 bar 5
  15/8 bar 6
  4/4 final note
  13/4 bass solo + verse 1
  12/8 1st chorus ("the way your heart sounds")
  11/8 1 bar after first title namedrop
  change back to 12/8
  11/8 after 2nd title namedrop
  13/4 lead-in + verse 2
  7/4 back to intro riff after verse 2
  4/4 "another chance to lift my life"
  7/4 "[kindness beauty &] truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuth"
  12/8 3rd bar returning to intro riff
  4/4 4th bar + instrumental section start
  12/8 after that part where the chords are played (bar 1)
  15/8 bar 2
  12/8 bar 3 onwards
  4/4 lead-in + acoustic part
  12/8 return to chorus riff
  7/4 that part that stutters
  6/8 where it finishes
  13/8 final part of instrumental section 1
  9/8 single notes repeated
  13/8 fake outro
  5/8 WFS reprise starts (1st 3 bars)
  2/4 for 1 bar
  3/4 for 3 bars
  2/4 for 1 bar
  repeat those 4, 2.5 times (counts as 10)
  12/8 final part of WFS reprise + guitar solo
  repeat 4 timesigs of WFS reprise, but hold the 3/4 instead of going to 2/4 (counts as 7)
  12/8 keyboard solo + duet solo bar 1
  9/8 duet solo, bar 2
  12/8 duet solo, bars 3-5
  9/8 duet solo, bar 6
  12/8 duet solo, bars 7-8 + chorus 2 + outro bar 1
  9/8 outro bar 2
  cycle 12/8 for 3 bars & 9/8 for 1 bar throughout the rest of the outro (counts as 21)

Discuss
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 12:10:42 AM by IDontNotDoThings »
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2015, 07:54:27 AM »
Well, I'm certainly not going to do that.

But I would imagine that the song with the most changes is The Dance of Eternity.
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Offline Lucien

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2015, 08:45:27 AM »
(it's The Dance of Eternity, it's like 160-something changes)

But why does it matter?  :P It's not exactly an impressive quality of their music. Out of 1913 came an orchestral work with a 5-minute section with probably 10 times more time signature changes as The Dance of Eternity (The Sacrificial Dance from Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring).
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Offline pcs90

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2015, 02:10:34 PM »
I'm pretty sure someone did count all the ones in TDOE because I remember seeing that online somewhere.

Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2015, 02:31:06 PM »
I'm pretty sure someone did count all the ones in TDOE because I remember seeing that online somewhere.

I counted 88. I didn't notate it (because how do you describe these sections), but I'll probably do it in video form soon.

But why does it matter?  :P It's not exactly an impressive quality of their music.

Mainly, the point is to see what correlation the number of time signatures changes has to how people regard the song, even though there's no direct causation. Like, what amount of all-time classic DT songs have a high number of timesig changes, what songs are technically complex without many of them, what would happen if a certain song had more or less of them, how amazing TDOE is, etc.
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Offline Lucien

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2015, 04:26:38 PM »
well in my opinion TDOE is rather stale for me now
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Offline darkshade

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2015, 05:07:15 PM »
Octavarium
TDOE
ACOS
Beyond This Life

One of those

Offline mike099

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2015, 06:27:49 PM »
The time signature changes is what I initially liked about DT because it was different from the classic rock I was used to.  I like the songs with lots of time changes, but for someone new to DT it may be overwhelming.  The perfect song to introduce someone to DT is BAI.  Classic time changes(but not overwhelming), great lyrics and a killer guitar solo. 
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Offline pcs90

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2015, 07:46:36 PM »
The perfect song to introduce someone to DT is BAI.  Classic time changes(but not overwhelming), great lyrics and a killer guitar solo. 
I love BAI. It's one of my all-time favorites.

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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Offline Sycsa

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2015, 04:28:46 PM »
Relevant - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwkcRTNMsWs
Love it, that clip got me passionately interested in time signatures.


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Offline wolfking

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2015, 09:11:39 PM »
Pretty sure TDOE is the answer here.
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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2015, 11:05:23 PM »
Okay, I'm gonna do TDOE, but I'm going to change the font size. I don't want a huge area of scrolling space for my post, & people can just copypaste it into notepad if they want to read it (same goes for OP).

Additional notes:
1. timestamps rounded to nearest second
2. interpreted from a bass guitar tab

Anyway, here we go:
start at 4/4 
01. 7/8   0:33
02. 3/4   0:35
03. 4/4   0:38
04. 7/8   0:39
05. 3/4   0:41
06. 4/4   0:44
07. 7/8   0:46
08. 3/4   0:48
09. 7/8   0:49
10. 4/4   0:51
11. 7/8   0:53
12. 3/4   0:55
13. 7/8   0:56
14. 13/16 0:58
15. 15/16 0:59
16. 17/16 1:01
17. 14/16 1:03
18. 4/4   1:05
19. 7/8   1:07
20. 3/4   1:09
21. 4/4   1:12
22. 7/8   1:13
23. 4/4   1:15
24. 5/4   1:17
25. 17/16 1:19
26. 15/16 1:22
27. 13/16 1:23
28. 4/4   1:25
29. 6/8   1:27
30. 7/4   1:30
31. 5/8   1:43
32. 11/4  1:44
33. 4/4   2:16
34. 3/4   3:21
35. 5/4   3:23
36. 4/4   3:25
37. 3/4   3:27
38. 4/4   3:28
39. 7/16  4:12
40. 6/16  4:15
41. 7/16  4:19
42. 4/4   4:21
43. 5/16  4:23
44. 7/16  4:24
45. 5/16  4:25
46. 7/16  4:26
47. 5/16  4:27
48. 7/16  4:29
49. 10/16 4:30
50. 4/4   4:33
51. 7/8   4:35
52. 3/4   4:36
53. 4/4   4:39
54. 7/8   4:41
55. 9/8   4:43
56. 14/8  4:44
57. 15/8  4:50
58. 14/8  4:52
59. 15/8  4:59
60. 7/4   5:13
61. 12/16 5:21
62. 10/16 5:22
63. 12/16 5:24
64. 14/16 5:25
65. 10/16 5:27
66. 11/16 5:29
67. 12/16 5:30
68. 16/16 5:32
69. 12/16 5:34
70. 16/16 5:35
71. 12/16 5:38
72. 10/16 5:39
73. 12/16 5:41
74. 14/16 5:42
75. 10/16 5:44
76. 11/16 5:45
77. 10/16 5:47
78. 12/16 5:50
79. 11/16 5:51
80. 10/16 5:53
81. 12/16 5:54
82. 6/8   5:56
83. 7/8   6:01
84. 6/8   6:03
85. 11/16 6:11

Total: 85
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Offline CharlesPL

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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2015, 12:58:02 AM »
108 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkFNdi8gIMY

At 2:17 of his video , he alternates between 5/4 & 2/4, while I listed it as 7/4 throughout the whole section. At 2:48, he shows a 9/4 & a 2/4 alternating in the section I listed as 11/4 (considering they're surrounded by 11/4 anyway). At 5:36, I got lost (:P), but there's definitely some differences there too. I think it's partially subjective though, & I did simplify a few things.
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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2015, 01:55:02 AM »
I'd participate if I was still in my teens / twenties and had way more time.  Instead, I will just observe and enjoy.  I especially like the videos where they are counted out as the song actually plays.

I'm less excited about time sig changes as I was at that age as well (in terms of writing).  The best thing about writing in multiple time sigs outside of 4/4 is that you are less likely to inadvertently copy something.

My suggestion to anybody getting into this is to not try to learn as many time sigs all at once.  Instead, get 4/4 down.  Then try and make 4/4 not sound like 4/4.  That's how you know you have it as an internal clock as opposed to thinking in terms of numbers and subdivisions.

Then take just one new time sig and just jam over it.   You've had a decade or decades of 4/4, so the idea that you are just going to internalize a new sig in an hour then move onto the next one is ridiculous.  You can do it, but then it just feels like counting instead of feeling it.

I'd suggest taking this route:

12/8 - 4/4 with a triplet feel (subdivide by 3 instead of 4)  Also called compound time (as opposed to simple time)

3/4 - The easiest way to feel this is think waltz.  This allows you to *home base* the feel so it isn't just counting

9/8 - This is the same as going from 4/4 to 12/8.  Instead it is 3/4 to 9/8.  Waltz feel, but compound (3) instead of simple (2s and 4s) per beat.  But you can take a different route and do the Voices intro (4/4 with half beat tacked on at the end)

7/8 - This is where you start to really get that odd time feeling going.  Where the symmetry starts to go away.  But it doesn't have to.

People can think of it as eighth notes divided into 2-2-3 or 2-3-2 or 3-2-2 or 3-4 or whatever.  That's the common DT feel(s).  But my love of 7/8 is when I naturally fell upon looking at it from the 16th note perspective.  My absolute favorite pulse is
1 e & a - 2 e & a - 3 & a - 4 & a
So it feels like 4/4, but the 2nd half (beats 3 & 4) have the last 16th note chopped off, which produces a slightly rushed feel.  This gives the illusion of 4/4, but for some reason it feels like it is really chugging along.

You can also think of it as 1st half simple time, 2nd half compound time.  Or 2/4 + 6/8, but the 16th note equals the eight note triplet in time duration.

I'll cut it there, but just throwing out some thoughts on how to feel these as opposed to just counting them out.  Maybe we can start a thread where somebody takes a time sig and explains how they feel it.  There are some "accepted" ways, but the fun is not just using the accepted methods.  If you stumble upon something musical, share.  I'm thinking Mangini's The Grid might be something like this (just guessing).

Also, sometimes it is easier to combine sigs for the sake of the sheet music looking less "change every few beats".  For instance, going back between 5/4 and 4/4 constantly, sometimes when you are in your DAW, it is just easier to say 9/4, even though the constant 5/4 to 4/4 changes represents what is actually happening better.  It can be bad form, but oh so much easier to program into the DAW.  I bring this up because of the 11/4 and 7/4 mentions earlier.

BTW, I'd like to see the songs prepared with two numbers each.  One is every change.  The other is every unique signature.  I think that might give a different perspective into the complexity as well.

Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2015, 12:11:39 AM »
Added LTL, it comes closer to TDOE than you might imagine.
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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2015, 01:40:28 AM »
Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From A Memory


1. Regression
  6/4, no changes
2. Overture 1928
  start at 4/4
  2/4 last bar of buildup
  change back to 4/4
  3/4 after orchestral part
  5/4 fast guitar part after that riff
  4/4 keyboard solo
  3/4 2nd bar of riff after M&S outro reprise
  change back to 4/4 for 3 bars
  change back to 3/4 for 1 bar
  change back to 4/4
  3/4 when one guitar is doing fast bits & another is doing short chords, 2nd bar
  change back to 4/4
  2/4 last bar of that part
  alternate between 4/4 & 7/8 twice (1 bar each), hold 7/8 for an extra bar (counts as 4)
  change back to 4/4
3. Strange Deja Vu
  start at 4/4
  7/4 1st perchorus
  6/4 4th bar of 1st prechorus
  4/4 final bar of 1st prechorus onwards
  7/4 2nd prechorus
  4/4 4th bar of 2nd prechorus onwards
  3/4 "a feeling that's deep inside me"
  change back to 4/4
  6/4 last bar before verse 3 starts
  change back to 4/4
  for the 2nd part of verse 3, change to 7/8 after each line, then change back (counts as 6)
  3/4 "a feeling that won't go away"
  change back to 4/4
4. Through My Words
  4/4, no changes
5. Fatal Tragedgy
  start at 4/4
  2/4 last bar before verse 1
  change back to 4/4
  3/4 chorus 1
  6/4 last bar of chorus 1
  11/8 instrumental part after chorus
  9/8 last bar of that section
  change back to 4/4
  6/4 4th bar of instrumental section
  change back to 4/4
  6/4 djent-y part in instrumtnal section
  change back to 4/4
  2/4 when it cuts to silence for a brief second
  change back to 4/4
  2/4 last bar before final line is spoken
  change back to 4/4
6. Beyond This Life
  start at 5/4
  alternate between 4/4 & 7/8 when deviated from main riff, except last bar is 2/4 not 7/8 (counts as 8)
  change back to 5/4
  alternate between 4/4 & 7/8 after verse 1, except last bar is 6/4 not 7/8 (counts as 8)
  change back to 5/4
  6/4 "the witness ran to call for assistance"
  change back to 5/4
  3/4 chorus ("our deeds have travelled far")
  change back to 5/4
  4/4 verse 2
  for 2nd part of verse 2, switch to 6/4 & 4/4 for the instrumental after each line (counts as 4)
  for 3rd part, do the same except with 4/4 & 2/4 (counts as 12)
  15/8 lead-in to prechorus 2
  9/8 last bar of that
  6/4 1st 2 bars of prechorus 2
  15/8 2nd 2 bars of prechorus 2
  6/4 last 4 bars of prechorus 2
  3/4 chorus 2
  5/4 instrumental section start
  6/4 dynamics boost
  4/4 return to verse 2 part 1 riff
  for the next section, cycle 5/4 for 1 bar & 4/4 for 3 repeatedly (counts as 20)
  3/4 buildup to final chorus + rest of song
7. Through Her Eyes
  4/4, no changes
8. Home
  start at 4/4
  for start of instrumental outro after final chorus, cycle 7/8 for 3 bars & 4/4 for 1 (counts as 4)
  change back to 7/8
  for that one fill, alternate 3/8 & 5/8 (counts as 4)
  change back to 7/8
  return to that fill, time signatures in following order: 3/8
  5/8
  2/4
  3/8 (for 2 bars)
  3/4
  7/16 [end fill]
  change back to normal part, this time in 19/16
  6/8 after 3 bars
  change back to 19/16
  14/16 building up to last note
  4/4 last 2 notes
9. The Dance Of Eternity
  (copypaste this from the other forum post)
10. One Last Time
  start at 4/4
  after 1st chorus, cycle 7/8 & 4/4 (1 bar each) (counts as 3)
  for guitar solo, cycle 4/4 for 3 bars & 3/4 for 1 (counts as 4)
  change back to 4/4
11. The Spirit Carries On
  6/8, no changes
12. Finally Free
  start at 4/4
  9/8 last bar before mood darkens
  change back to 4/4
  7/8 piano part before verse 1
  change back to 4/4
  2/4 last bar before chorus
  change back to 4/4
  7/8 piano part before verse 2
  change back to 4/4
  3/4 "as their bodies lie still"
  4/4 "familiar voice comes shining through"
  2/4 "someday soon"
  change back to 4/4 for outro


1. Regression - 0
2. Overture 1928 - 17
3. Stange Deja Vu - 17 (that is strange deja vu indeed)
4. Through My Words - 0
5. Fatal Tragedy - 15
6. Beyond This Life - 69
7. Through Her Eyes - 0
8. Home - 21 (all of which being in the outro)
9. The Dance Of Eternity - 85
10. One Last Time - 8
11. The Spirit Carries On - 0
12. Finally Free - 12
Total - 244
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: Which DT song/album has the most time signature changes?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2015, 09:46:29 PM »
Octavarium
TDOE
ACOS
Beyond This Life

One of those

I wouldn't say BtL, but those three and SDoIT are probably among the songs with most time signature changes..

I counted the changes in Octavarium, and I got around 140..

That would beat TDoE, and it has nothing to do with their respective lenghts, because, out of 8V, in Full Circle are almost all the different time signatures..

These are the time signature changes for each section:

Someone Like Him: 5
Medicate (Awakening): 0
Full Circle: 125
Intervals: 10
Razor's Edge: 0
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