After 2 years... What are your thoughts on DT12?

[jsbru]

DT12 reminds me somewhat of Falling Into Infinity.  A more commercial sounding album with less complex song structures and a bit more focus on melody, which, unfortunately falls a little flat for me.

See, I don't have a problem with a more commercial sound.  My favorite music is maybe halfway in between commercial and prog.  I think there's something to be said for simplicity, some great chord changes, and a repeating hook.  My favorite Genesis album is Duke, which I see as about halfway in between Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (which is self-indulgent to the point that it's boring) and Invisible Tough (which, aside from Domino, is pretty much a straight-up pop album, albeit a good one).  Yes wrote some really catchy but still progressive radio songs.  Same with Rush.

Lifting Shadows off a Dream is one of my favorite DT songs, and there's no solos in it.  Looking Glass is my favorite from DT.  These are still progressive songs, but they're not overdone, and they accomplish a lot without the need to "show off" musically.  Not that I never want to hear DT show off...it's cool when they do.  But they only need to do it once or twice on an album to make a good one.

As for DT, I liked it a lot when it first came out, but it's settled in as kind of average for me.  Not a huge fan of TEI, EM, BTV, and IT is mediocre as far as DT epics go.  LG, AFTR, TBP and STR are solid.

ADTOE is aging a lot better IMO.

[jsbru]

While i like the focus on "simpler" (by DT-standarts) songwriting and melody

I like the tightening up of songwriting, but it also kind of shows the weakness of DT.  Commercial song arrangements are usually simpler mainly because there is an extremely strong hook and making the song too long dilutes and takes away the focus of that.  My main problem with prog is the long songs are kind of a substitution or crutch that hides the lack of legitimate hooks.

I'll give too examples of DT12 on hooks.

I liked The Enemy Inside immediately.  To me, the opening pre-vocal intro is the hook and everything (except the bridge) just strongly upholds that hook.  It is concise and has a very direct musical style and theme.  Really good songwriting (although DT fans don't seem to like this song as much)

I also liked parts of Illumination Theory quite a bit.  But the larger concept took away from what could have been strong hooks that stood on their own.  Live, Die, Kill could have been a Top 20 song for me on its own.  And the Pursuit of Truth had a good hook, but less developed than Live, Die, Kill.  So two strong hooks that could have been used to create two more concise, hook driven songs ... weren't.

The rest of the album is kind of not great, not bad for me.  Nothing that would even come close to a Top 30 or maybe even Top 50 DT song for me.  And I feel it is because they really didn't have a strong hook.  They might have had hooks, but not very strong ones.

And yes, a hook is subjective.  It isn't like there is a definition that can guarantee parts of songs are universally accepted as a strong hook and others have no hooks.  Ultimately, I blame the vocalist as they are usually the songwriter in a band that creates the hook.  JP is the main songwriter (by a wide margin it seems), so the hooks are almost always the guitar over the melody.  I kind of feel like if DT forced themselves to write the melodies first (not all the time, just mix it in), they'd create a new instant classic.

I agree with all of this...good points.  I don't want all hooks, I prefer an even balance of symphonic prog songwriting and poppy hooks.

[hefdaddy42]

Lifting Shadows off a Dream is one of my favorite DT songs, and there's no solos in it. 

Lifting Shadows is also one of my favorite DT songs, but if you told JP there was no solo in it, he would be upset, because there is one.

[Dublagent66]

It certainly does.  Nothing fancy, but definitely a solo nonetheless.

[jsbru]

Eh, it's more like a couple variations on a riff than a solo.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Illumination Theory, Surrender to Reason and The Bigger Picture are still great songs to me.

The rest range from nice to meh. The mix still doesn't sound good.

One thing I have to recognise, this album is very consistent. Not as much as ADTOE, but consistent nonetheless.

[MirrorMask]

I heard it recently, and it didn't amaze me as it did when it was new. There are no bad songs on it, I still think The Bigger Picture is a wonderful song and that Behind the Veil has an awesome chorus (never realized until my lost recent listening the Mustaine impression James makes on the verses), but the other songs, while being all nice and entertaining and having their moments (the general punch of The Enemy Inside, or the goosebumps ending of Illumination Theory), do not really captivate me as much as they used to. In short, I realized this album didn't age well with me, but I still think it's a very good album.

On the other hand just today I listened to A Dramatic Turn of Events and damn if I liked it! Even the songs I preferred less like Lost Not Forgotten and This is the Life, I enjoyed them a lot... maybe it was just because I didn't listen to it for months, possibly years by now, but I truly liked every moment of it. Very balanced albums with more regular songs mixed with convincing epics, and the "musical wankery" was not overblown or out of place in the context of the songs. I hope DT13 will be like this, while taking more risks and innovations.

[CoT67]

TBP, STR and IT are pretty strong songs by DT standards (especially TBP and IT). Even BTV, AFTR and TEI are pretty good songs to listen to every once in a while.

IMHO it feels like they tried to experiment a bit more with song structures (shorter songs, less repeating riffs and sections) and they put some slightly different, more modern influences in their music... I feel that Petrucci's got some of that djenty single-note polymetric riffs going, also thanks to Mangini's drumming.

The obvious con is the production... I think that if they went for a more natural sounding but still powerful record (of which BC&SL is a perfect example) the album would be much more desirable to listen to.

I seriously hope that the keeping of Chycki as engineer/mixer won't impact as much the production of the next album as it did for DT12.

[r0cken]

OMG, it happened. I think I like DT12. I still think it's nothing to write home about, but I now enjoy it - as in being able to hum along and bang my head a little to it.
Just in time too.

[jayvee3]

Very Strong for me. I liked it from day one and still listen to it regularly. I think it's a really consistent album and actually feel a couple of songs like STR and BTV could have even been a little longer. But being left wanting more over songs dragging is a good place to be in my book.

IT is one of my favourite epics. Love the guitars, love the energy of James and feel like I'm in the minority who really likes the middle classical section. It's makes sense to me in the context of the song of kind of 'asking questions' - 'searching for the truth' - 'finding the answer'.

Enigma Machine is a highly underrated instrumental too in my book. Hell's Kitchen is my personal fave, but I'm left scratching my head at the lack of love for EM. It is a ripping instrumental, and one I actually prefer over the generally more highly rated 'Dance of Eternity'.

This album (and ADTOE which I feel has also aged very well) is light years above some of their other more recent offerings IMO.

[JediKnight1969]

This album (...) is light years above some of their other more recent offerings IMO.

Which offering is more recent than DT12?

[hefdaddy42]

Eh, it's more like a couple variations on a riff than a solo.

Not sure what you're talking about.  It's clearly a guitar solo.  Sorry that it isn't 40,000 notes in 10 seconds, or sweep picking all over the place, or fingertapping till the cows come home.

[bosk1]

This album remains in the "very strong" category for me.  Tempted to vote "instant classic," but, to me, classics cannot be instant.  They are made over time.  And 2 years is too soon.  But I still rank this album as #4 overall, behind 6DOIT, SFAM, and ADTOE, and it has definitely grown on me considerably since its release.   One of their best efforts, hands down.  If not for the flat production, it may have ranked even higher.

[metrojam]

Disliked it the first time I heard it and still really don't like it. Weak, uninspiring songs (apart from "Illumination") and terrible production....rock bottom of their career pile for me....Things can and WILL only get MUCH better with this new one, I am sure

[jayvee3]

This album (...) is light years above some of their other more recent offerings IMO.

Which offering is more recent than DT12?

Fairly obviously referring to some of the other recent albums preceding DT. Feel free to adjust my 'in desperate need of coffee' wording in your own mind if you feel it necessary... 

[DreamerTV]

Still a really good one.

BTV and AFTR feel like fillers, and EM not really my cup of tea, but the rest of it is very strong.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

To me, filler =/= a song I don't like.

Regardless of how much I like certain songs over others, each still sets out to fulfill a purpose. That alone makes it not a filler.

[TAC]

I find myself really indifferent to it. It's not bad, and it has some great moments, but it's not upper echelon for me. Not even close.
The mellow part in IT is a total buzzkill. Total.

[Kotowboy]

To me, filler =/= a song I don't like.

Regardless of how much I like certain songs over others, each still sets out to fulfill a purpose. That alone makes it not a filler.

+1.

A filler track is a song you specifically write just to fill up an album.

[Train of Naught]

All Killer No Filler 

[Kotowboy]

Anyway - the longer I leave listens of DT12 - the harder it is to get back into it because you always think " ah the snare can't be that bad "

But it is.

[CDrice]

All Killer No Filler 

I don't see what Sum 41 as to do with this, but I agree with you nonetheless.

[MirrorMask]

To me, filler =/= a song I don't like.

Regardless of how much I like certain songs over others, each still sets out to fulfill a purpose. That alone makes it not a filler.

+1.

A filler track is a song you specifically write just to fill up an album.

+2.

Paranoid from Black Sabbath and You've Got Another Thing Comin' from Judas Priest were fillers. They're also one of their most successful singles.

[Train of Naught]

All Killer No Filler 

I don't see what Sum 41 as to do with this, but I agree with you nonetheless.

Appreciated, although that album is full of filler material IMO 

[CDrice]

All Killer No Filler 

I don't see what Sum 41 as to do with this, but I agree with you nonetheless.

Appreciated, although that album is full of filler material IMO 

I couldn't tell if you're right. It's been so long I can only remember the singles. Well I guess this actually proves your point 

[Kotowboy]

You've Got Another Thing Comin'

I squirm every time I see this. .

[Train of Naught]

I couldn't tell if you're right. It's been so long I can only remember the singles. Well I guess this actually proves your point 

Ya me too, can't believe how a song as annoying as In Too Deep never gets erased out of my mind.

[porcacultor]

"Very Strong" describes it well. It feels to me that the band set out to do "what they do best", aiming for stuff that can hold its own over time. LaBrie is a special character for me in this one, those higher backing vocals in Along for the Ride are some of my favourite moments in DT's history. Such a great ~ballad~ as it were. I wish they'd play it instead of Spirit Carries On (beautiful song, I love it but it could get some rest in the set. if they want to play a SFAM song every show, they could as well play Fatal Tragedy!).

But I digress. I like the intro just fine, Looking Glass is a gem, Enigma Machine is a fun instrumental (especially with the cartoons they projected live!), Behind the Veil and The Bigger Picture could be songs to show just what dream theater "is" without resorting to the classics... This is a great album through and through.

[BlackInk]

Anyway - the longer I leave listens of DT12 - the harder it is to get back into it because you always think " ah the snare can't be that bad "

But it is.

This. Happened to me a few months ago. I thought "hey, The Bigger Picture was a nice song wasn't it? Haven't heard that one in a while", then I listened to it. Couldn't bare more than maybe half the track before I stopped and listened to something not cringe-worthy instead.

[Madman Shepherd]

Very Strong for me. I liked it from day one and still listen to it regularly. I think it's a really consistent album and actually feel a couple of songs like STR and BTV could have even been a little longer. But being left wanting more over songs dragging is a good place to be in my book.

IT is one of my favourite epics. Love the guitars, love the energy of James and feel like I'm in the minority who really likes the middle classical section. It's makes sense to me in the context of the song of kind of 'asking questions' - 'searching for the truth' - 'finding the answer'.

Enigma Machine is a highly underrated instrumental too in my book. Hell's Kitchen is my personal fave, but I'm left scratching my head at the lack of love for EM. It is a ripping instrumental, and one I actually prefer over the generally more highly rated 'Dance of Eternity'.

This album (and ADTOE which I feel has also aged very well) is light years above some of their other more recent offerings IMO.

I agree with most of what you say here.  I don't know if we are necessarily the minority when it comes to liking the orchestral section of IT, but I am surprised there have been as many people as there are that don't like it. 

I also love Enigma Machine.  One of their better instrumentals for sure but I am sure we are in the minority when it comes to regarding it higher than Dance of Eternity.

[Kotowboy]

Anyway - the longer I leave listens of DT12 - the harder it is to get back into it because you always think " ah the snare can't be that bad "

But it is.

This. Happened to me a few months ago. I thought "hey, The Bigger Picture was a nice song wasn't it? Haven't heard that one in a while", then I listened to it. Couldn't bare more than maybe half the track before I stopped and listened to something not cringe-worthy instead.

I actually have to say something.


I just went for a long walk and listened to DT12 in full and I really enjoyed it. The snare is still a problem but it didn't annoy me as much this time.

I have tried many times to enjoy Awake beyond the first three songs but I never do however I do enjoy DT12 all the way through to some degree.

 

[Darkstarshades]

Lol yeah, 6:00 and Caught in a Web are almost unbearable to me. I only like them when I hear them by their own, but when I try to hear the entire Awake, I always skip these.

[manticore999]

I think it's a decent album.  I don't really listen to it much, though, preferring to stick to 6DOIT and earlier.  Still, it (along with ADTOE) is more in a direction I prefer, unlike the 4 before them, which I no longer even have in my library anymore. 

[RoadTrain_of Thought]

I don't dislike it but I can't get into it. I thought it would change after a few listens but it didn't happen.

[Kotowboy]

Lol yeah, 6:00 and Caught in a Web are almost unbearable to me. I only like them when I hear them by their own, but when I try to hear the entire Awake, I always skip these.

That's the opposite of what I meant. The first three songs are the only ones I enjoy.