Author Topic: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight  (Read 2749 times)

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2015, 11:57:57 AM »
I find it hard to believe that anyone still believes that teachers don't get completely shafted.   COLLEGE teachers are most likely comfortable.   And I would guess that private school teachers probably do OK as well (though I actually have no idea, I could be wrong).   But public K-12 teachers easily work 12 hour days, maybe get 6 weeks off, and make dirt poor pay.....on average.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2015, 12:01:46 PM »
There may be some states or districts that pay teachers well, or what they are worth, but I know that in NC they get paid like shit.

And anyone who thinks they have it good has never taught.

I went to school to be a teacher.  My semester of student-teaching cured me of that.  But people that teach, especially on the salary they get in most places, have my respect.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2015, 12:02:05 PM »
I find it hard to believe that anyone still believes that teachers don't get completely shafted.   COLLEGE teachers are most likely comfortable.   And I would guess that private school teachers probably do OK as well (though I actually have no idea, I could be wrong).   But public K-12 teachers easily work 12 hour days, maybe get 6 weeks off, and make dirt poor pay.....on average.

Most of the ones I know end up spending money out of their own pocket on supplies because the schools are so underfunded.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2015, 12:05:14 PM »
Why do you present Fullerton as an example of teacher pay?  California teachers average about 25% more than the national average, and Fullerton is towards the high end of California teachers.  I'd feel played too if I looked at that scale without knowing any more about it because that example makes it look positively glorious to be a teacher.
Because that is the district I grew up in.  And yet I was still out there being played by the teachers wanting more and using me (and my fellow students) as pawns instead of teaching us that day.

But this brings up yet another important point.  Trying to come up with a generic rate for teachers like $60k is part of the problem.  And yet we want $15 minimum wage federally (as if location doesn't matter).  It is amazing how quickly the roles get reversed in pointing out locality when it serves a bias.

Quote
I left teaching to take an entry-level programming position with no experience, and they started me at $5000 a year higher than the best teaching offer I could find.
I know somebody that is doing that exact curriculum right now.  Started at $80k/year.  She was the one that opened my eyes to the "poor teacher" meme.  When she told me what she made starting out, it was like The Matrix.  Everything I had been told (including by other teacher friends that complained but didn't want to give numbers) seemed a cruel lie.

And just to stop this before it inevitably runs wild, I'm not saying they aren't worth the pay.  I'm saying the idea that teacher's living in poverty won't work on me any longer.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2015, 12:10:05 PM »
Everything was not a lie.  My starting pay teaching was going to be $25K, and that was 15 years ago.

I think it may be up to $30K now in NC.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2015, 12:16:47 PM »
Everything was not a lie.  My starting pay teaching was going to be $25K, and that was 15 years ago.

I think it may be up to $30K now in NC.

But your situation actually explains the median being lowered.  There are many "entry level wage" teachers that leave, but are counted in the median.  It actually lowers the median.  The other site I found (don't remember what google keywords I used to get there months ago) actually listed the salary and benefits by actual employee.  And it became obvious that any teacher that was there for the long haul were well above the median.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2015, 12:20:32 PM »
Everything was not a lie.  My starting pay teaching was going to be $25K, and that was 15 years ago.

I think it may be up to $30K now in NC.
  And it became obvious that any teacher that was there for the long haul were well above the median.

That goes for pretty much any profession that isn't retail. You know how many college kids get into IT positions and then bail?

Offline Genowyn

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2015, 12:22:08 PM »
Everything was not a lie.  My starting pay teaching was going to be $25K, and that was 15 years ago.

I think it may be up to $30K now in NC.

But your situation actually explains the median being lowered.  There are many "entry level wage" teachers that leave, but are counted in the median.  It actually lowers the median.  The other site I found (don't remember what google keywords I used to get there months ago) actually listed the salary and benefits by actual employee.  And it became obvious that any teacher that was there for the long haul were well above the median.


You seem to be confusing the statistical definitions of median and average.

Median: There are an equal amount of values below the median as above. Low and high outliers don't impact a median.

Average: The sum of all values divided by the number of values. Low and high outliers do impact an average.

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2015, 12:24:40 PM »
Everything was not a lie.  My starting pay teaching was going to be $25K, and that was 15 years ago.

I think it may be up to $30K now in NC.
  And it became obvious that any teacher that was there for the long haul were well above the median.

That goes for pretty much any profession that isn't retail. You know how many college kids get into IT positions and then bail?

Then what is the problem with a 30k starting salary when if you stick with it, you will earn more?  My buddy just became a local cop, starting salary is 35k and you don't hear too many cops complaining about salary... because if they stick with it, it works out and they make decent coin in the end, plus have good benefits.  Just like teachers.  I also already said I think in general teachers should be paid more, but don't forget about the benefits when you talk about total compensation (tenure  :o).

Offline Chino

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2015, 12:27:56 PM »
Everything was not a lie.  My starting pay teaching was going to be $25K, and that was 15 years ago.

I think it may be up to $30K now in NC.
  And it became obvious that any teacher that was there for the long haul were well above the median.

That goes for pretty much any profession that isn't retail. You know how many college kids get into IT positions and then bail?

Then what is the problem with a 30k starting salary when if you stick with it, you will earn more? 

Because $30k per year is a shit salary. No adult working full time should make that little.

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2015, 12:37:25 PM »
Everything was not a lie.  My starting pay teaching was going to be $25K, and that was 15 years ago.

I think it may be up to $30K now in NC.
  And it became obvious that any teacher that was there for the long haul were well above the median.

That goes for pretty much any profession that isn't retail. You know how many college kids get into IT positions and then bail?

Then what is the problem with a 30k starting salary when if you stick with it, you will earn more? 

Because $30k per year is a shit salary. No adult working full time should make that little.

Yes, it is shit salary but who is to say no one should make that little?  Everyone has to start somewhere including teachers.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2015, 12:39:42 PM »
^^^^

You're arguing that starting teachers should make minimum wage.   Are you REALLY arguing that starting teachers should make MINIMUM wage???
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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2015, 12:54:35 PM »
^^^^

You're arguing that starting teachers should make minimum wage.   Are you REALLY arguing that starting teachers should make MINIMUM wage???

How many times do I have to say that I think teachers are underpaid?  No they should not make minimum wage, but that doesn't change my point that you need to start somewhere and that somewhere is on the low end of the spectrum of a teacher's pay scale.  Should that pay scale start higher than minimum wage? I think so. 

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2015, 01:03:14 PM »
^^^^

You're arguing that starting teachers should make minimum wage.   Are you REALLY arguing that starting teachers should make MINIMUM wage???

$7.25 x 40 x 52 = $15,080.

No.  He's not arguing that at all.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #84 on: September 23, 2015, 01:06:13 PM »
^^^^

You're arguing that starting teachers should make minimum wage.   Are you REALLY arguing that starting teachers should make MINIMUM wage???

$7.25 x 40 x 52 = $15,080.

No.  He's not arguing that at all.

He is if we are discussing the hypothetical $15 national minimum.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2015, 01:07:25 PM »
You seem to be confusing the statistical definitions of median and average.
Not really.  But I actually expected this response.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2015, 01:09:37 PM »
^^^^

You're arguing that starting teachers should make minimum wage.   Are you REALLY arguing that starting teachers should make MINIMUM wage???

$7.25 x 40 x 52 = $15,080.

No.  He's not arguing that at all.

He is if we are discussing the hypothetical $15 national minimum.
If...  but I give the $15 national minimum about a 0.00001% chance of becoming reality any time soon (as in years away).  And if it does, then we've really gone off the rails.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2015, 01:12:55 PM »
BTW ....



I've now saved the thread by creating a direct link between teachers and *drugs*.  I love the tangents and detours, but I always picture somebody that isn't a regular to this part of the forum taking a few thread samples and feeling like they need to read 20+ pages of the off ramps just so they can figure out how to join in.   :blush
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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2015, 01:19:09 PM »
If someone were to read the back log they probably wouldnt join in lol

Offline Genowyn

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2015, 01:20:08 PM »
You seem to be confusing the statistical definitions of median and average.
Not really.  But I actually expected this response.

You kept mentioning entry level wages dragging the median own, but it doesn't really work like that with a median.

For example, say you had seven teachers ant their salaries were: 30k, 32k, 35k, 65k, 66k, 67k, 68k. In that example 65k is certainly the median, but the average income is ~51k.

If I change the data set to: 20k, 32k, 35k, 65k, 66k, 67k, 88k, the median does not change, however the average does, as now it is ~53k.

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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2015, 01:28:23 PM »
You kept mentioning entry level wages dragging the median own, but it doesn't really work like that with a median.
Yes.  And the website I found that didn't have summaries but individual people had 100s of pages for a district.  And each page would have 30 to 60 salaries listed.

The # of temps and entry teachers (because of turnover, as exemplified by hef) out weighed the total number of long term teachers (which were still many, but less than the turnover).  That would add weight to the low end.

Good explanation though.  Are you a teacher?  You don't appear to be using common core standards  :laugh:
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Offline j

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #91 on: September 23, 2015, 04:57:14 PM »
My wife teaches elementary school in Texas as does my mom.  Both currently make between $40-45k annually and my wife has never held a job that paid under 40 grand/year.  I understand that is a little high compared to national averages, but people also seem to forget that at least public school teachers typically work 9-10 months out of the year, and often get good benefits.  However there is virtually nothing in the vein of performance-based incentives, potential for salary increases, etc.  Moving into administration is always an option I guess, if you're willing to go get an advanced degree that does nothing to prepare you to do that job any better.

I'm not saying that teachers make more than "enough" or even are well-compensated for the work they do.  I sure as hell couldn't do it, and if I could it'd take a six figure salary to even make me consider it.  But better than a base salary increase to me would be some sort of performance metric to guide pay "tiers" or something, although I know that comes with its own share of difficulties.  Standardized test scores are certainly inadequate for that purpose.

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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #92 on: September 23, 2015, 05:15:39 PM »
However there is virtually nothing in the vein of performance-based incentives, potential for salary increases, etc.
That's definitely a killer.  And as usual, the solutions end up being worse than the problem.  For every incentive program, there is somebody complaining about it being rigged, set up with the wrong metrics, has to do more with brown nosing, etc.

As far as education as a whole, it is a downright tragedy that kid's have tools today that weren't available to me back then ... yet they seem to be using those tools to do the modern day equivalent of "passing notes" instead of realizing the amazing advantage they have with tech.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2015, 07:16:35 AM »


Then what is the problem with a 30k starting salary when if you stick with it, you will earn more? 

Because $30k per year is a shit salary. No adult working full time should make that little.

But that is the real problem with discussions like this.  We CANNOT oversimplify it to statements like that.  We just can't.   That statement has so many variables in it that it is meaningless.  Is that the sole bread winner for a family of six?  Then you're right.  Is that the salary of the supplementary income in the family, and someone who needs set hours, can't do any overtime, and HAS to have certain holidays and/or vacations off (paid or not)?   What are the benefits?  Does that come with childcare facilities?  Better yet, does that involve working out of the house?   What are the rewards for tenure? 

We cannot keep making bad decisions based on statements that are 140-character, Twitter-pre-approved.   It doesn't work.

Offline Chino

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2015, 07:51:34 AM »
I'll rephrase then. In a typical job with regular benefits, one which doesn't come with fancy perks like provided childcare and a home office, and one where the employee has even just one child, $30K per year is a shit salary.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #95 on: September 24, 2015, 09:28:53 AM »
I'll rephrase then. In a typical job with regular benefits, one which doesn't come with fancy perks like provided childcare and a home office, and one where the employee has even just one child, $30K per year is a shit salary.

But you know I'm not just busting your stones.  It really IS a complicated thing.  Even with your caveat, it ignores that everyone can make that decision for themselves, and even that is complicated, because who wouldn't say that "more salary is better"?

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #96 on: September 24, 2015, 10:39:23 AM »
Why are we even discussing $30k salary?  It doesn't even apply here.  Even cherry picking those stats with Mississippi, the median was $41,510.  And that was 2009.

That's $20 an hour.  It is hardly rich, but *shit*?  No way.
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Offline Cable

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #97 on: September 24, 2015, 09:12:25 PM »
I'll rephrase then. In a typical job with regular benefits, one which doesn't come with fancy perks like provided childcare and a home office, and one where the employee has even just one child, $30K per year is a shit salary.

Color me with a *crap* salary then in the past, as a grown adult with no dependents. My first job with a master's degree gave me 30k a year exactly gross. 12 days off a year, a 2k deductible 1 person insurance with a premium, the wonderful 401k, and roughly 10k extra mileage on my car that wasn't reimbursed at the federal rate.


Why are we even discussing $30k salary?  It doesn't even apply here.  Even cherry picking those stats with Mississippi, the median was $41,510.  And that was 2009.

That's $20 an hour.  It is hardly rich, but *shit*?  No way.


I'm getting into this debate later, so cherry picking myself here. So I think we are talking about stats from a specific state? Generally I'm of the belief that all states are kind of in the same boat, minus the coasts with income. But median can be abused and misleading. Basic statistics (mean, median and mode) are too error ridden IMO, and are missing so many other factors to boot.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #98 on: September 24, 2015, 09:40:10 PM »
teacher salary

And I found the pay by teacher for my state and school district I grew up in
Transparent California

Top 5 teachers out of 503
Base Pay - Base +Benefits - Teacher
$105854    $194513    Robin Oliver
$121742    $184559    Michael Schade
$98412    $184183    James Kirkpatrick
$101735    $183666    Glenn Madrid
$126928    $182545    Brian Wall

Teacher #:
100.  $110185    $153093    Rose Setten
200.  $95066    $142510    Barbara Jindra
300.  $89763    $134107    Ahmad Jafari
400.  $80081    $117545    Amanda Gieser

Last above $100,000 and then last for every $10,000 drop
436.  $66045    $100543    Sharon Miller
452.  $64461    $91204    Kelly Virden
458.  $57416    $81831    Terry Hendricks
463.  $47434    $70605    Barbara Carman
467.  $34903    $61563    Chelsye Deboor
468.  $36083    $51657    Kathryn Grant
480.  $28303    $42497    Alan Hobbs
487.  $19922    $30661    Jack Adams
492.  $12583    $20262    Shaina Eser
498.  $9732    $10547    Dannica Beener
503.  $0    $0    Robert Verry

436 of 503 teachers above $100,000 or 87%
480 of 503 teachers above $50,000 or 95%
488 of 503 teachers above $30,000 or 97% (or only 3% of the teachers below $30,000 shit pay)

Further, the final 3% probably have some circumstance like didn't teach the entire school year.
And according to this statistic, throwing money at the problem puts California at #43.

Another helpful link
Average Salaries & Expenditure Percentage - CalEdFacts
South Dakota is dead last with $39,018 (which obviously is pre-benefit)

Edit: reworked figure presentation for better comparison
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 10:23:14 PM by Calvin6s »
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #99 on: September 24, 2015, 09:53:11 PM »
Drug price too high -> Walter White ->  America's obsession with work ->  How much do teachers make?

I'm gonna suggest this detour now
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 08:45:33 AM by Calvin6s »
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2015, 03:54:02 AM »
Back on topic...although not in this case, since it's a cash grab...But drug companies aren't alone in their culpability. A good friend is a hematologist/ oncologist. His contracted salary at his practice is roughly 400,000 per year; yet in reality he brings home about 1.2 million, due in large part because of kickbacks from pharmaceuticals to use certain chemo meds. He's not alone. All the docs in his group do this. It's nothing new. So their desire to earn that wage drives the cost up as well.
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Offline Cable

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2015, 08:09:44 PM »
^ Interesting, I never knew of these bonuses so to speak. So three times his salary for going with the drug companies. I thought it was frequently just drug companies and insurance companies. Clearly then it's many sides.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2015, 08:31:16 PM »
This is one of those secrets everybody has heard about.  But my question is:  How is this not illegal?  It's dangerous just buying a client a legitimate gift for being "cool".  And not just cool in that they are *giving you contracts*.

When I was a purchaser at a very large, multi-national company, we would constantly be taken out to very nice lunches.  This stuff goes on all the time, but you start to question your own purchases (and both ways ... am I buying a little more because the dude is *cool*.  Am I buying too little because I'm afraid I'm buying too much.  Am I pushing the product because of the personal relationship.

I recall turning down actual gifts beyond lunch because of that.  I can't imagine accepting gifts that amounted to 3x my salary.  I'd feel like the feds were going to bust down my door every night.  Or at least my *boss* would give me a "WTF?  There's the door.  Don't bring that crap into my business."

As the owner, my vendors have asked me things like
Vendor:  what would you really like?
Me:  No more snail mail.  Fix your online system so I can get invoices, statements, notices, etc. in pdf format.  Send me price updates (which are frequent with many skus) indexed to an unchanging sku # in CSV format.  Improve your qty discounts.  Email me or text me quote verification with $/uom, qty and lead time.
Vendor:  No, no.  I meant what would you really like?  You like boxing, right ......
Me:  I really, really, really want those things so I can automate as much of my daily work as possible.  Do that and I can buy the boxing tickets on my own using the time and money savings.

I'm a pretty boring client to grease.  I just want everybody to make money.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2015, 12:12:54 PM »
A rep for one of my vendors used to bring fresh baked cookies. She was my favorite, but alas She's Moved On. FedEX is always good since they keep suites at all of the sports venues for that purpose.

I read an article about the pharma reps a while back. Doctors will swear up and down that they're not swayed by their sales pitches, and I suspect they all believe that very much. The problem is that after you spend a few hours every day for a week hearing about how great it is you're more likely to prescribe it than something old. You go to Nassau for a week for the golf and that doesn't effect your preferences. You attend those seminars at the same time and it definitely does. One of my doctors was very fond of Benicar; prescribed it to me and my brother and wouldn't consider switching us off of it. I have no doubt whatsoever that he had my best interests at heart and wouldn't do anything whatsoever to jeopardize my health. He genuinely considered it the very best thing for my situation. It still wouldn't surprise me at all if his fondness for that particular med began with some seminars in some tropical paradise.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

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Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #104 on: September 28, 2015, 09:55:48 AM »
One of my doctors was very fond of Benicar; prescribed it to me and my brother and wouldn't consider switching us off of it. I have no doubt whatsoever that he had my best interests at heart and wouldn't do anything whatsoever to jeopardize my health. He genuinely considered it the very best thing for my situation. It still wouldn't surprise me at all if his fondness for that particular med began with some seminars in some tropical paradise.

Is that wrong?   I don't take many meds (actually, almost none at all, even when I'm sick), but my dad does and has had a daily regimen since I was a kid.  He's susceptible to these circumstances (and I've already said here he almost died once because of a shift from name to generic; I think it was synthroid) but almost overwhelmingly, the pharma reps influence stops at "awareness".  You have to be aware of these drugs to prescribe them, and I look at it like John Petrucci and guitars.  Or amps.  None are exactly the same, and you can either be Johnny Ramone that plays whatever is in front of you, or you can be John Petrucci and go through the entire signal chain before every album and every tour. 

If my health was on the line, I'd rather be dealing with John Petrucci.