Author Topic: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight  (Read 2748 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2015, 01:03:37 PM »
I'm increasingly of the opinion that many of our problems have no solutions at all. Much of this is the end result of our attempt at democracy, our attempt at capitalism, and our relative success with prosperity. Everything has become so intermingled that the complexity eliminates the practicality of fixing any one problem.

There's some truth in this, though I would modify your point about our attempts.  There is a degree to which you can only split the baby so many ways.  We want capitalism... except not the down sides.  We don't want socialism... except for the up sides.   We want government intervention... except when they're in our shit.  We want a smaller, nonintrusive government... except when we want stuff. 

I think to a large degree, we've blurred so many lines (and in some cases, rightly) that it's complex and hard, because we can't always identify the problem! The symptoms are clear, but that's not the same as the PROBLEM. 

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 19113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2015, 02:02:25 PM »
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, and please don't think I am supporting this price hike, but why is this such a big deal if the patents are expired? Couldn't another company just release a generic version for $680 less than this guy is charging?

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2015, 02:15:48 PM »
I think the cost of that has actually come way down.


Nope, it's still north of $1000 per tablet.  At least that's why CVS/Caremark Specialty Pharmacy is charging Blue Cross
No, I meant your $1000 is down from where it began.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 14809
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2015, 03:12:18 PM »
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, and please don't think I am supporting this price hike, but why is this such a big deal if the patents are expired? Couldn't another company just release a generic version for $680 less than this guy is charging?

That is correct.  When a drug first hits the market, it is patented, much like any other "invention" although obviously there are other, stricter conditions that must be met.  Patent protection lasts a number of years (I think it's 12 or 13... I'm not sure, and I should probably know this).  During that time, only the company that created the drug can sell it, and while other companies can come up with their own drug to compete with it, they have to be very careful not to present it as "their version of" the original.  That would be illegal.  Theirs must be another drug which also treats the same condition.

After the patent protection expires, other companies can make their version of it, and that's when numerous "generic" versions of the drug start showing up.  The generic versions are typically reverse-engineered to be pretty much the same as the original, but it's nearly impossible to be 100% identical.  To be considered a generic version, it must show similar efficacy.  That is, is must be as effective, or nearly as effective, a high percentage of the time (there's an exact cutoff, but again I don't know it), and it must also have a similar rate of side effects.

What's happened with the drug in the OP is that it's been around for a long time, patent protection has expired and it went generic a long time ago, and today only one company is still making the drug.  Shkreli did his research, found this company, bought it, and jacked up the price.  Because there's only one company in the world making the drug, if you take this drug, you have to buy it from him (or rather Turing Pharmaceuticals, the company he bought).

Yes, other companies can also make this same drug and sell it for less, but that doesn't happen overnight.  Someone would have to note the opening in the market for such a drug, research it, reverse engineer it, test it, get it approved by the FDA, and finally get it to market.  The process takes years.  In the meantime, anyone who takes Daraprim (the drug in question) is screwed.  They pay the ridiculous price that Turing now charges, or they work with their doctor to try and find another drug which is hopefully just as effective, or at least worth the difference in price.

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2015, 03:24:15 PM »
It all comes back to monopoly ... which the govt. has regulated many times over.

I only follow pharma stuff on the surface.  On the newer drugs, how often does a company license a patent?  Particularly, to more than one company.

On the older drugs, if you think of generic drugs purely in terms of manufacturing, what would it take to set up a company that just doesn't go after each generic drug monopoly response on a one by one basis, but with multiple skus.  Especially for drugs that don't have a serious alternative, also qualifying as a serious life altering drug (death, long term damage without, life unbearable without)?

So if you were a company that took this guys approach, but on a larger sku diversity, you'd already have the competition in place to sale the drug for .. $50.  Perhaps the government can "pre-approve" the FDA process for well established firms on generic drugs at risk for this kind of manipulation so the start up process is reduced greatly.

Just tossing crap out there.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 14809
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2015, 03:48:23 PM »
It's tricky.  When multiple companies make generic drugs, the price is always low because of the competition, and because... well, because the drugs are generic.  All the research has been done and paid for (that's what the patent protection is for -- so the company that created it can recoup the millions they put into the research and testing), and all that's left is to make the pills, sometimes literally for pennies apiece.  But the profit margins are also pretty low, so if all the companies except one decide to stop making the drug, it's not the "fault" of the one company still making it that they now have a monopoly.  There would have to be some government organization, or maybe a branch of the FDA or something, who keeps track of that kind of thing.  One day, the company gets a visit from the Feds, saying "Congratulations!  You now have a monopoly on <some drug> so we're here to tell you about all the laws which now affect you!"

I could see it, I guess.  If you make generics, you keep an eye on the competition, and would know when your last competitor dropped out of the market, giving you the monopoly.  Some would even say that you're obligated to know when that happens, especially if it means that there are a bunch of laws that now apply to you concerning how you price and market that drug.


"Pre-approval" would never, ever happen.  Each drug, including generics, is a unique formulation and must be thoroughly tested.  You can't just tell someone that it's okay to start manufacturing and selling pharmaceuticals because they've got a good track record.  They could start making and selling them, and 1000 people could be dead the first week because the FDA decided to just skip the testing part.  That would be bad.

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2015, 04:18:02 PM »
"Pre-approval" would never, ever happen.
I was thinking more about in terms of pre-approving (or pre-preparing) the *red tape* side of the equation.  Obviously, somebody would have to list out all the steps associated to see which steps could be green lit and which need followup.

Kind of like pre-approving a physical project.  Plans submitted and approved.  The idea that if it is built to plan (to be checked by *inspectors*), then the process can go forward.  Anybody that has been involved in that can tell you the plan approval process takes more time than the actual physical realization / inspection process.

Just something to look into.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 14809
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2015, 04:41:28 PM »
Ah, I misunderstood.  Still, I don't think it's likely to happen.  This is the federal government we're talking about.  They seem to have absolutely no interest in anything which would speed up the process of getting new drugs out to market.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 7891
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2015, 06:28:12 PM »
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - http://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2015, 07:27:37 PM »
Technically, Walter took to cooking crank to provide for his family after his death. I think he was intending to forego treatment, and I'm pretty sure he had some insurance anyway (though it was crappy, if I recall). The irony is that having to turn to felony drug manufacturing to make sure your crippled and unborn kids can live in a house and get an education is every bit as pathetic when allegedly living in the greatest nation on Earth.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Genowyn

  • That name's pretty cool, and honestly, I'd like to change mine to it.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5288
  • Gender: Male
  • But Hachikuji, I've told you over and over...
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2015, 07:45:55 PM »
Technically, Walter took to cooking crank to provide for his family after his death. I think he was intending to forego treatment, and I'm pretty sure he had some insurance anyway (though it was crappy, if I recall). The irony is that having to turn to felony drug manufacturing to make sure your crippled and unborn kids can live in a house and get an education is every bit as pathetic when allegedly living in the greatest nation on Earth.

I think that may be where he got the "747" number from, but I was pretty sure his initial intent was to pay for his medical care, and because he didn't want to have to rely on Hank or the Schwarzes to pay the bills.

While he did have insurance it was crappy, and certainly would not have paid for the treatment at the clinic Marie recommended to them.

...my name is Araragi.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 14809
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2015, 08:22:43 PM »
Oh yeah, one other thing I was gonna say about the Feds stepping in and controlling the prices on meds.


Feds: You're the only company that makes Blargoul. That's a monopoly, so under the new Drug Price Reform Act, you cannot charge more than xxx per unit.
Pharma: But it costs us yyy to make each one.
Feds: Too bad. You can't charge more than xxx per unit.
Pharma: Okay, we just won't make Blargoul any more. People can just go back to dying of <ugly disease>.
Feds: No, wait...

Feds: Hello?

Feds: Hello?


I mean, the Feds can't force someone to keep making a product, right?  We still have that much freedom, don't we?

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2015, 08:53:20 PM »
Technically, Walter took to cooking crank to provide for his family after his death. I think he was intending to forego treatment, and I'm pretty sure he had some insurance anyway (though it was crappy, if I recall). The irony is that having to turn to felony drug manufacturing to make sure your crippled and unborn kids can live in a house and get an education is every bit as pathetic when allegedly living in the greatest nation on Earth.

I think that may be where he got the "747" number from, but I was pretty sure his initial intent was to pay for his medical care, and because he didn't want to have to rely on Hank or the Schwarzes to pay the bills.

While he did have insurance it was crappy, and certainly would not have paid for the treatment at the clinic Marie recommended to them.
I'm pretty sure Walt was resolute about dying on his own terms with a modicum of dignity. He only sought treatment when the family bullied him into it, and he knew then that he could actually pay for it. His primary focus at the beginning was providing for his genuinely awful family after he croaked.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2015, 10:03:08 PM »
He must have screwed up pretty badly if his government job had bad insurance, bad benefits and bad pay.

He did it because "he liked it."
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Genowyn

  • That name's pretty cool, and honestly, I'd like to change mine to it.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5288
  • Gender: Male
  • But Hachikuji, I've told you over and over...
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2015, 10:10:42 PM »
He must have screwed up pretty badly if his government job had bad insurance, bad benefits and bad pay.

He did it because "he liked it."

It's true that he did it because he liked it, but we was only a public school teacher. They don't do too well.

...my name is Araragi.

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2015, 10:16:51 PM »
He must have screwed up pretty badly if his government job had bad insurance, bad benefits and bad pay.

He did it because "he liked it."

It's true that he did it because he liked it, but we was only a public school teacher--in Albuquerque. They don't do too well.
Fixed.

He also had to moonlight washing cars just to pay his existing [meager] bills.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2015, 10:37:54 PM »
Just so I'm clear, the fix for Daraprim is a Breaking Bad scenario.   :lol

El Barto and I will hop right on that.  I get to be Jesse though.  We are going to be so f''ing rich.  And I get to survive ... without the money ... crap.

So next idea?
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2015, 07:41:11 AM »
It all comes back to monopoly ... which the govt. has regulated many times over.

I only follow pharma stuff on the surface.  On the newer drugs, how often does a company license a patent?  Particularly, to more than one company.

On the older drugs, if you think of generic drugs purely in terms of manufacturing, what would it take to set up a company that just doesn't go after each generic drug monopoly response on a one by one basis, but with multiple skus.  Especially for drugs that don't have a serious alternative, also qualifying as a serious life altering drug (death, long term damage without, life unbearable without)?

So if you were a company that took this guys approach, but on a larger sku diversity, you'd already have the competition in place to sale the drug for .. $50.  Perhaps the government can "pre-approve" the FDA process for well established firms on generic drugs at risk for this kind of manipulation so the start up process is reduced greatly.

Just tossing crap out there.

One, monopolies are not "de facto" bad.  This isn't really a "monopoly" in that sense since no one is prevented or even discouraged - legally or otherwise - from providing competition (though don't get me wrong; it is technically a monopoly in that there is only one seller, and market conditions are such that the seller can unilaterally set pricing.  It's just that it won't likely fall under antitrust scrutiny since this company isn't doing anything to prevent competition.  In fact, I would argue that by jacking prices and getting all this attention, he is ENCOURAGING competition.)  Patents (and trademarks) are, in fact, a legal, licensed monopoly that we not only accept but encourage.

Two, it's not a slam dunk.  To my understanding, everything Orbert wrote was 100% correct (though I would have added "cost" to the last paragraph where he said it takes a lot of time); but in there he mentioned "reverse engineering".  That is an inexact science at best.  "Generics" may have a similar efficacy, but for many, generics don't work for whatever reason.   I know my dad almost died from a generic version of his arthritis medicine, and even was willing to try it TWICE more under controlled circumstances and it still didn't work (Yes, I yelled at him).  These are not common reactions (the dying) but the reduced efficacy are. Why would you invest hundreds of millions of dollars when even if you do everything right you may not have a product that a handful of people are going to use?

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2015, 07:47:39 AM »
Technically, Walter took to cooking crank to provide for his family after his death. I think he was intending to forego treatment, and I'm pretty sure he had some insurance anyway (though it was crappy, if I recall). The irony is that having to turn to felony drug manufacturing to make sure your crippled and unborn kids can live in a house and get an education is every bit as pathetic when allegedly living in the greatest nation on Earth.

You beat me to the punch on the first part; it wasn't to pay for the healthcare, it was to provide for his children.

But I'm going to push back even on the last part; he was what, 40?  If that?  Hadn't paid into Social Security enough for it to matter yet, hadn't been able to see his investments, if any, mature... this was only really to replace the insurance policies it didn't occur to him to get, and to accelerate the earning he would have done for the remainder of his working life.  I'm not sure it is fair to say that "because USA", we should all be set for life and not have to work at the age of 40.  I mean, I'll take it, but that is a program that will last at best for one generation.   And if you think "off shore bank accounts" are a thing now, wait.  I get helping those who can't, but this is getting pretty far over the border into "giving to those who won't". 

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2015, 07:49:10 AM »
Just so I'm clear, the fix for Daraprim is a Breaking Bad scenario.   :lol

El Barto and I will hop right on that.  I get to be Jesse though.  We are going to be so f''ing rich.  And I get to survive ... without the money ... crap.

So next idea?

I want to be Hank! 

Oh, wait......

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2015, 07:54:08 AM »
He must have screwed up pretty badly if his government job had bad insurance, bad benefits and bad pay.

He did it because "he liked it."

It's true that he did it because he liked it, but we was only a public school teacher--in Albuquerque. They don't do too well.
Fixed.

He also had to moonlight washing cars just to pay his existing [meager] bills.

Um, why is that written like it's a bad thing?  When did the mentality sink in that we didn't have to work for what we earn, that we should be given enough to live on regardless of what we put in?  This isn't the new Radiohead record, where we get to decide what we put in to get the product.   "Public school", he works nine or ten months of the year, and while I get it that teachers don't work JUST the time the kids are in session, it's not like many jobs (including mine) where one is essentially working the "working hours" of the continental USA (meaning, 8:00 am Eastern or thereabouts in the morning, to 4:00 pm pacific or thereabouts in the evening).

Off topic for sure, but still...

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2015, 08:12:17 AM »
I'm not pushing the mentality that we shouldn't have to work. I am opposed to the notion that you either work for everything you get or fuck off. Americans have a work fetish, in my opinion. This is why we'll have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the post-scarcity age.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 7891
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2015, 10:01:15 AM »
He must have screwed up pretty badly if his government job had bad insurance, bad benefits and bad pay.

He did it because "he liked it."

It's true that he did it because he liked it, but we was only a public school teacher--in Albuquerque. They don't do too well.
Fixed.

He also had to moonlight washing cars just to pay his existing [meager] bills.

Um, why is that written like it's a bad thing?  When did the mentality sink in that we didn't have to work for what we earn, that we should be given enough to live on regardless of what we put in?  This isn't the new Radiohead record, where we get to decide what we put in to get the product.   "Public school", he works nine or ten months of the year, and while I get it that teachers don't work JUST the time the kids are in session, it's not like many jobs (including mine) where one is essentially working the "working hours" of the continental USA (meaning, 8:00 am Eastern or thereabouts in the morning, to 4:00 pm pacific or thereabouts in the evening).

Off topic for sure, but still...

I don't mind working hard for a living...(and I do), but I think many feel (very justifiably) that working incredibly hard and STILL not being able to make a living is really inexcusable.    Especially for something as important as teachers.   (who work longer hours than you hint at here)
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - http://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2015, 10:21:27 AM »
I'm not pushing the mentality that we shouldn't have to work. I am opposed to the notion that you either work for everything you get or fuck off. Americans have a work fetish, in my opinion. This is why we'll have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the post-scarcity age.

What do you mean by "either work for everything you get or fuck off"?  Seriously, I'm just not understanding.   

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2015, 10:27:22 AM »

I don't mind working hard for a living...(and I do), but I think many feel (very justifiably) that working incredibly hard and STILL not being able to make a living is really inexcusable.    Especially for something as important as teachers.   (who work longer hours than you hint at here)

We're going to get off topic very quickly, but I feel some sympathy to the profession, but not unbridled sympathy.  I can't help but think of examples like Altressa Cox-Blackwell (http://www.courant.com/community/enfield/hc-enfield-prudence-crandall-principal-suspended-20150312-story.html), and I'm not feeling the love.  "I'm concerned why all of a sudden there's issues," Cox-Blackwell said. "I wonder if they're trying to get rid of me as a cost-saving measure, I wonder if it's my age, I wonder if it has to do with my race."   First, it's "there ARE issues" (or "there's issue") but beyond that, YOU DIDN'T DO YOUR JOB.   If we don't consider $125K enough to "make a living", we're doing something wrong.

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 15666
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2015, 10:34:01 AM »
I will say my opinion on teachers is that many are underpaid for their importance to American society, however the pay might not be the best for many teachers, there are still many perks so I really don't think teachers have it bad at all.

Anyway, this guy seems like a real scum bag

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/martin-shkreli-sec-investigation_5601a3c4e4b08820d91a6b6f?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

but apparently will be lowering the price due to public out cry.

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2015, 10:34:43 AM »
There are websites that show what teachers make (pre and post benefit) and every time I look at it, I don't feel sympathy.  I feel played.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 19113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2015, 10:38:04 AM »
I know several teachers ranging from 25-60 years old....  Even with summers off, I'd NEVER want that job. All the bullshit that has to go into common core and standards makes the profession really hard. Many of them aren't allowed to actually teach as they are are instructed to present the courses in a predetermined fashion. I knew one girl who didn't get her contract renewed because she brought examples into a class that weren't in the curriculum that was given to her.

Also, the parents. I can't even begin to count the number of parent horror stories I've heard.

Then there is the constant fear that you are going to lose your home if you so much as look at a child the wrong way, and forget about accidental contact.

The inability to talk to the students because they have one hand under their desk with a phone at all times.. screw that.

Teaching sounds like something I would have loved twenty years ago. Teaching in today's world, no thanks. My hat goes off to whoever is willing to put up with that. I believe teachers should be making at least $60K per year (the ones I know have all started under $35k), but I also believe that they should be held to a high degree of scrutiny and held accountable for their performance.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 7891
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2015, 10:58:11 AM »
I'm feeling the love for Chino right now.    :tup
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - http://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2015, 10:59:49 AM »
I'm not pushing the mentality that we shouldn't have to work. I am opposed to the notion that you either work for everything you get or fuck off. Americans have a work fetish, in my opinion. This is why we'll have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the post-scarcity age.

What do you mean by "either work for everything you get or fuck off"?  Seriously, I'm just not understanding.
American society is built around the concept of the American dream. You can have anything you want if you just work hard enough. That's all fine, but we've reached the point where anything you have is a function of how much you worked for it. For the time being that's the way it needs to be. My problem is that America's collective arrogance would have us all believe that it's just fucking awesome how that works out. I suppose it's the Star Trek nerd in me, but I see that as a real shame and I'd just as soon see us moving towards the point where a lifetime of toil isn't the prerequisite for comfort, or even survival in many instances. Technologically we're getting real close to the point where anybody could have anything they wanted, but socially that's as un-American as it gets. Based largely on the mentality that we should each have the right to have more than anybody else.

As evidenced by America's biggest asshole.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2015, 11:38:16 AM »
Many of them aren't allowed to actually teach as they are are instructed to present the courses in a predetermined fashion.
So the same rules that apply to almost every job? 

Quote
Then there is the constant fear that you are going to lose your home if you so much as look at a child the wrong way, and forget about accidental contact.
So sexual harrassment rules.  Yeah.  We have that too.

Quote
I believe teachers should be making at least $60K per year (the ones I know have all started under $35k),
teacher pay example
The median is at the $60K+ range for all but Preschool and Kindergarten.
And if I can find another site I stumbled upon again, it listed the actual teacher pay and benefits (and janitors and administration and .... every job at the schools) and every teacher that had taught for more than a couple of years was in the $80K to $120K range.  Even more with benefits, which are many.
The $60K median is dragged down by short term and temp teachers.  The average teacher is comfortably in the $80k range.

This is why I say I feel played.  I remember teachers having walk outs and using our class time to organize the students to show up at the protests.  I gladly (and without the internet, ignorantly) showed my support.  Now I just feel inappropriately used.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 14809
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2015, 11:46:37 AM »
Why do you present Fullerton as an example of teacher pay?  California teachers average about 25% more than the national average, and Fullerton is towards the high end of California teachers.  I'd feel played too if I looked at that scale without knowing any more about it because that example makes it look positively glorious to be a teacher.

I made less than half of that when I was teaching (though it was 20 years ago) and I'm in an area with the highest paid teachers in the state.  I left teaching to take an entry-level programming position with no experience, and they started me at $5000 a year higher than the best teaching offer I could find.

Offline Genowyn

  • That name's pretty cool, and honestly, I'd like to change mine to it.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5288
  • Gender: Male
  • But Hachikuji, I've told you over and over...
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2015, 11:48:08 AM »
Your example is referring to one school district in California. Since we were talking about Breaking Bad let's look at Albuquerque:

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/new-mexico/teacher-salary-in-albuquerque-public-schools/

Not quite as rosy.

Or a state on the low end of teacher salaries like Mississippi:

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/average-teacher-salary-mississippi.html

I honestly don't think it's an exaggeration to say teaching is one of the most important professions out there. There won't be any (or at least very few) doctors or lawyers or businesspeople or chemists in the future without teachers.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 11:53:42 AM by Genowyn »

...my name is Araragi.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2015, 11:55:59 AM »

Teaching sounds like something I would have loved twenty years ago. Teaching in today's world, no thanks. My hat goes off to whoever is willing to put up with that. I believe teachers should be making at least $60K per year (the ones I know have all started under $35k), but I also believe that they should be held to a high degree of scrutiny and held accountable for their performance.

Chino, seriously, if this keeps up we're going to be dating soon.  I agree 100%, up to the end section (which I quoted):  the answer is not "throw more money at them".   The answer is administrative.   Because you're not going to get the "best teacher", you're going to get the person that is willing to prostitute themselves the most to be treated like a doormat.  If your passion is teaching people, whether it's $35k or $60k, the phone under the desk and the sexual accusations are not going to meet that passion. 

This is administrative.  Leave phones in the locker (like at my daughter's school).  You want to talk to the kid? Go old school and call the office.   You want to "free" the teachers, stay off the "common core" (like at my daughter's school).  Because of the wonders of divorce, all three kids in my home go to different schools.  My wife came with me to my daughter's parents day and listened to the English teacher talk about how the kids set the agenda for the class.  Now, it's not like they get to surf Facepage all session, but they get to decide what book to read.  They get to decide if they are going to have a debate on the book or not.  Etc. etc.  BUT THEY ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR CHOICES.  Each one has ramifications, and they have to weigh those.  Sound familiar?  It should to anyone who lives life.   None of this spewing recitations so the school score is high enough.

Again, off topic, but jeez.  We can't keep conflating all problems down into solutions that "sound good" and/or "feel good" and/or meet our political agenda. 

Offline Calvin6s

  • Posts: 3404
Re: Drug Goes From $13.50 a Tablet to $750, Overnight
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2015, 11:56:40 AM »
You can have anything you want if you just work hard enough.
huh?  Are people taking this that literally?  And if so, why are they so dumb (or a car commercial for an electric car, for irony).  Obviously every kid has goals that will most likely exceed reality.  But anything and everything are not the same thing.  I can't even recall the moment I realized I'd have to make choices as to what I wanted and needed more because to me, it feels like my entire life.  But it was probably when you did your first childhood job so you could get what your parents said they couldn't get you.  And by childhood, I'm talking 2nd grade (or earlier for things like a lemonade stand).  Going with my friend around the neighborhood offering landscaping services.  Realizing how quickly just how many days of hard labor it would actually take to get that thing your parents couldn't afford.  And lesson learned ... very early in life.  You might even achieve your goal by having the "I started this, I'm gonna finish it" attitude.  You get that bike that was cooler.  Next time, you are more likely to say "nah.  My Atari 2600 / Intellivision / Coleco is good enough for now", instead of working your butt off another summer for that Atari 5200 because it says it is better.

Quote
My problem is that America's collective arrogance would have us all believe that it's just fucking awesome how that works out.
I really don't follow this.  I'm getting the opposite *collective* return.  Everything sucks.  What's the point?  It doesn't matter what I do, America is working against me.  Maybe I'm not understanding your larger point?

Quote
Technologically we're getting real close to the point where anybody could have anything they wanted
Just in time for natural resource scarcity or climate change dilemmas?  I always took from life that there is no such thing as utopia. 
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.