Author Topic: Top 50 "Classical" Works - Currently: Scorpion 47-48, Splent Addenda  (Read 13594 times)

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Offline Kilgore Trout

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***37-38
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2015, 02:13:50 PM »
I'm playing devil's advocate here, but if he had written music not pleasing to the Nazis, he probably would have been arrested, especially since it was his first major success. I wonder how many people "agreed" with the Nazi philosophy out of fear.

Many composers chose to flee the country. Some other stayed, like the much greater composer Karl Amadeus Hartmann. Orff wasn't jew, he didn't risk much as long as he refuted his modernistic tendancies" (to quote the Music and the holocaust website : "Choosing to forget all associations with Jewish, leftist, or modernist artists, Orff emphasised his hatred of jazz music and the atonality of Schoenberg and his disciples, and emphasised his own sincere and deep-seated appreciation of folk music.") Carl Orff didn't agreed with the Nazi Regime out of fear. While probably not a nazi himself, he had many high-ranking nazi relations, and chose to go along because it was convenient.

I don't see how it's linked to the Nazi ideology at all, since it's based on a medieval work, and the subject matter I believe is still relevant today.

To quote the Music and the holocaust website again : "Despite its exotic sounds and sexual themes, [Carmina Burana] came to be perceived as 'a celebration of the power of an uninterrupted life instinct' and its elemental melodies and rhythms were said to bear witness to 'the indestructible and always re-emerging power of the ways of the common people'."

This is a little bit too general, because it goes farther than that. The piece pretty much has everything the nazi regime was looking for : a simple and rough music, with simple rhythms and melodies akin to military music, with emphasis on pseudo-folk music and ritualistic expression, with on top of that a kind a fascination for a fantasized roman antiquity. It's ready-made music for fascists.

Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***37-38
« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2015, 05:49:35 PM »
Couldn't you say that about any kind of nationalistic music though? I mean I doubt Orff was like "ooooo I'm going to write this because the Nazis will love it!" Now his reaction when they did (to basically disassociate himself from previous works), ok I can see your point.

When I hear it though I don't think Naziism I think of that raw earthly human emotion, and if that's what nazis ironically embraced (let's embrace our past while getting rid of a huge part of it), that sucks.

This is about the piece in itself, not the overly played O Fortuna.
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Offline nicmos

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***37-38
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2015, 09:09:26 PM »
I'm really  loving how you have so much choral music in your list.  Moonlight Sonata is nice, but I think it illustrates how I've never been that taken with solo piano.  Just about the only thing I like where there is one type of 'instrument' is choral music.  There is something so special about it.  I wish I could put into words what that is, but it just evokes so much more emotion than any musical instrument can to me.  The Byrd mass is wonderful, as is the Handel.  Of course Carmina Burana is nice, but as a whole I've always thought it was not engaging, there's only a few of the movements that I like.  As a kid O Fortuna was amazing to me.

I don't remember hearing this particular Handel before, but that big chorus with the big organ is great!  So joyous and grand.  Thanks for including it on your list.

Offline Kilgore Trout

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***37-38
« Reply #108 on: October 18, 2015, 02:53:23 AM »
Couldn't you say that about any kind of nationalistic music though?

I don't think so. I don't hear anything of that in Sibelius' music, for example, even in his most bombastic pieces. There are many ways to be "nationalistic". It's a thing to emphasize the nationalistic values of a country, it's another to emphasize (by will or by chance) the ones of the most hateful regime of all times. I think Carmina Burana is tainted. Not only the context of the times it was written in can't be forgotten, but the context marked the piece to my ears.

I mean I doubt Orff was like "ooooo I'm going to write this because the Nazis will love it!"
That part is actually unsure, as Orff lied at the end of the war to appear as an anti-nazi. I don't think he changed his style to fit in the esthetical needs of the regime, but the guy wasn't a great moral figure to begin with.

When I hear it though I don't think Naziism I think of that raw earthly human emotion, and if that's what nazis ironically embraced (let's embrace our past while getting rid of a huge part of it), that sucks.
"Raw earthly human emotion" definitely echoes the "blood and soil" nazi ideology to me.

On another hand, do you know Stravinsky's Les Noces, Bartok's Cantata profana and three village scenes or Britten's Our hunting fathers? In a kind of similar style, I think they are much better works than Carmina Burana.

Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***37-38
« Reply #109 on: October 18, 2015, 09:17:20 AM »
I have not heard those pieces, but I know Bartok was a huge advocate of maintaining and saving folk music in his own country and implementing it into his music.
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Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***37-38
« Reply #110 on: October 18, 2015, 11:09:34 AM »
36. J.S. Bach - Concerto for Two Violins in d minor BWV 1043 (approx 1720)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wapqrTbs-S8

The first movement of this piece is probably the most well known, but the piece as a whole is probably one of the most pristine examples of music of the Baroque era. The melody interweaves back and forth between the two violins. I got to see this performed by Hilary Hahn and Victor Yampolsky while working at the Peninsula Music Festival in Wisconsin (BEST. SUMMER. JOB. EVER.) and it was absolutely breathtaking.

35. Aaron Copland - Appalachian Spring (1944)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2R7eDwD2TY

Probably one of the most definitive pieces of American music (from arguably the definitive American composer), this piece is absolutely beautiful. Contrary to the title, this has nothing to do with the Appalachian mountains or the area in the United States. In fact, the piece is set in Pennsylvania, during a farmhouse raising (I guess in a Shaker community, alluding to the hymn "Simple Gifts" being arranged within the piece). It's beautiful, and while not set in Appalachia, that area of the country is beautiful in itself, and you can just picture "America" within the piece (which WAS intended).
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Offline Onno

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***35-36
« Reply #111 on: October 18, 2015, 12:19:08 PM »
I need to catch up again, but Bach's Double Violin Concerto is  :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy

Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***37-38
« Reply #112 on: October 19, 2015, 06:48:14 AM »
I'm really  loving how you have so much choral music in your list.  Moonlight Sonata is nice, but I think it illustrates how I've never been that taken with solo piano.  Just about the only thing I like where there is one type of 'instrument' is choral music.  There is something so special about it.  I wish I could put into words what that is, but it just evokes so much more emotion than any musical instrument can to me.  The Byrd mass is wonderful, as is the Handel.  Of course Carmina Burana is nice, but as a whole I've always thought it was not engaging, there's only a few of the movements that I like.  As a kid O Fortuna was amazing to me.

I don't remember hearing this particular Handel before, but that big chorus with the big organ is great!  So joyous and grand.  Thanks for including it on your list.

 There are several more choral works to come.  Some of them are pretty well known, others are a bit more obscure, especially outside the choral world. Hope that you will enjoy what's to come!  :tup
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Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***35-36
« Reply #113 on: October 20, 2015, 08:08:36 PM »
Quick update while the Cubs game is on a commercial.... hopefully they'll come back in the next 4 innings.

34. W.A.Mozart - The Magic Flute (1791)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGGjutPf_tk

Fun opera.

33. Franz Josef Haydn - The Creation (1798)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l07oRR4u-rk

One of Haydn's finest works, inspired by Handel's oratorios.
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Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***33-34
« Reply #114 on: October 21, 2015, 07:57:04 PM »
32. Antonín Dvořák - Symphony No. 9 "New World" (1893)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuqyfEyNXQo

Heavily influenced by American music, specifically African-American spirituals, this symphony is probably Dvorak's magnum opus. He was friends with Harry Burleigh, an African American composer and arranger who was one of the earliest composers to write down African American spirituals, and Dvorak was immersed in them. This is heard in the well known 2nd movement which uses the spiritual "Going Home" as the main theme.

31. Aaron Copland - Fanfare for the Common Man (1942)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLMVB0B1_Ts

This piece may seem cliche for some, but I think that is because this piece is used so often when talking about something masterful, or great, or timeless (that and John Williams heavily borrowing ideas from it for his music for the Olympics). The piece was written in response to the US entering WWII, and I think this work fits that theme... although I (also cliche) also think of astronauts walking on the platform... those open quartal and quintal chords just kind of scream liftoff to me.
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Offline nicmos

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***33-34
« Reply #115 on: October 21, 2015, 08:42:12 PM »
Ah, I'm getting behind here.  Magic Flute- yeah a fun opera but not one I would put in my top 50.  Mozart in general isn't very high on my list.  That Haydn though is really nice.

and Dvorak's 9th only in 32nd?  That may be the best symphony of all time!  well, glad you have it on the list.  every movement is stellar, and what an epic ending.  Copland, yeah FFTCM is very enjoyable, but hmm maybe a bit short to be on a top list of mine.

still enjoying the heck out of this list.  keep em coming!

Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***33-34
« Reply #116 on: October 21, 2015, 08:59:24 PM »
Ah, I'm getting behind here.  Magic Flute- yeah a fun opera but not one I would put in my top 50.  Mozart in general isn't very high on my list.  That Haydn though is really nice.

and Dvorak's 9th only in 32nd?  That may be the best symphony of all time!  well, glad you have it on the list.  every movement is stellar, and what an epic ending.  Copland, yeah FFTCM is very enjoyable, but hmm maybe a bit short to be on a top list of mine.

still enjoying the heck out of this list.  keep em coming!

As I was listening to it again for the first time in a long time I was like Heck why didn't I put it higher? You can probably guess a few of the Symphonies I put higher  ;)
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Offline RoeDent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***31-32
« Reply #117 on: October 22, 2015, 01:17:47 AM »
Re. Dvorák:

For a while, the Ninth was the only one of Dvorák's symphonies I was really into, but I've recently grown to appreciate the 7th. I really need to get the first 5 symphonies into my collection. Of his other works, the Symphonic Variations are also very much worth a listen. Many recordings pair the Ninth with the Variations, so it should be easy to find one.

Offline Kilgore Trout

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***33-34
« Reply #118 on: October 22, 2015, 01:34:56 AM »
and Dvorak's 9th only in 32nd?  That may be the best symphony of all time!

:omg: I can think of around 100 symphonies better than this one. Then again, I pretty much hate everything Dvorak wrote, and the 9th is one of his only piece I find tolerable.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 09:55:24 AM by Kilgore Trout »

Offline Lucien

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***31-32
« Reply #119 on: October 22, 2015, 08:17:28 AM »
I prefer his 8th symphony by a very wide margin. The 9th was fun to play last year, though
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Offline nicmos

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***33-34
« Reply #120 on: October 22, 2015, 08:53:37 PM »
and Dvorak's 9th only in 32nd?  That may be the best symphony of all time!

:omg: I can think of around 100 symphonies better than this one. Then again, I pretty much hate everything Dvorak wrote, and the 9th is one of his only piece I find tolerable.

what planet are you from?  ok, I'll make you a deal.  you name 10 symphonies that are better than this one.  and I'll tell you why they are all much worse than Dvorak's 9th.

Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #121 on: October 22, 2015, 09:27:45 PM »
and Dvorak's 9th only in 32nd?  That may be the best symphony of all time!

:omg: I can think of around 100 symphonies better than this one. Then again, I pretty much hate everything Dvorak wrote, and the 9th is one of his only piece I find tolerable.

what planet are you from?  ok, I'll make you a deal.  you name 10 symphonies that are better than this one.  and I'll tell you why they are all much worse than Dvorak's 9th.

Just to let you know, I have I believe 6 symphonies to go on my list. You won't sway me on my top 2 symphonies (and you probably haven't heard one of them because it's not very well known).

There are also several symphonies not on my list that I heard long ago but haven't had the time (or patience) to listen to them again. Sibelius' first 3 symphonies fall in this category. Or maybe it's his other 3. I don't remember. See? :lol

Anyways, here are the next 2.

30. Sergei Rachmoninoff - Piano Concerto #3 in D minor (1909)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lusMu2LGIUM

I was introduced to this piece through the movie Shine and it's since become one of my favorites. Arguably one of the most challenging pieces of music for a pianist to play. It's a beast.

29. Eric Whitacre - Sleep (1999)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW4AlcQeaf0

Whitacre originally set this piece to the poem "Stopping By Woods On A Snowy Evening" by Robert Frost; however, after the premiere the Frost estate said he couldn't publish it (he never secured permission, and literally months before finishing the piece the estate stopped allowing composers to compose music using his poems until they entered public domain). He asked his friend Charles Anthony Silvestri to write new lyrics that encompassed the theme of the Frost poem while maintaining originality and this was the result. I love this piece. So much.
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Offline Lucien

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #122 on: October 22, 2015, 10:41:01 PM »
 :tup @ rach 3
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Offline Kilgore Trout

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***33-34
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2015, 01:35:06 AM »
what planet are you from?  ok, I'll make you a deal.  you name 10 symphonies that are better than this one.  and I'll tell you why they are all much worse than Dvorak's 9th.
So, I need to name consensual symphonies? Let's do a little mix up.

Mahler 6 (or 9)
Sibelius 7 (or 3, or 6, or 2)
Ives 4
Shostakovich 8
Mozart 41
Lutoslawski 3
Beethoven ?? (name the one you prefer)

And I'm gonna name three symphonies I don't particularly like, but still think are better than Dvorak's 9th and are consensual choices, just for the sake of the argument :
Bruckner 9 (or 7 or 8)
Tchaikovsky 5 (which I think is stronger than the more famous 6th, but you can say 6th if you prefer)
Brahms 4 (or 1 or 2 or 3, you get the idea)

Plus, as some others have said earlier, Dvorak's 7th and 8th could be considered superior to his 9th.

And I haven't even named my favorite symphonies.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 04:15:21 AM by Kilgore Trout »

Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2015, 05:55:50 AM »
Ives! I haven't heard his symphonies. Perhaps it is time for a listen... I do like Ives music just because it was so interesting... It was so ahead of its time. However I'm not familiar enough with any one specific work to include it on this list.
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Offline Kilgore Trout

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2015, 10:52:17 AM »
His first symphony is a student work, in a Dvorakian style. The second is more personnal, but still a transitional work. The third is a curious one, quite hard to grasb. In it, Ives atempted to simplify the polytonal/atonal/mashup/crazy style he was developing at the time. The two masterpieces are the Holidays Symphony and the fourth symphony. The Holidays Symphony has still some romantic aspects while dwelving into high experimentation, and contains some of the most beautiful music ever written. The fourth is a more intellectual and modernist construction - that is why it is generally considered a stronger piece than the Holidays (that and the fact that the second movement is the most complex and insane movement Ives ever wrote, and that the last one is one of the greatest example of a perfect combination of high modernism and beauty (Ives considered his best piece ever)).

Offline nicmos

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2015, 01:15:59 PM »
what planet are you from?  ok, I'll make you a deal.  you name 10 symphonies that are better than this one.  and I'll tell you why they are all much worse than Dvorak's 9th.
So, I need to name consensual symphonies? Let's do a little mix up.

Mahler 6 (or 9)
Sibelius 7 (or 3, or 6, or 2)
Ives 4
Shostakovich 8
Mozart 41
Lutoslawski 3
Beethoven ?? (name the one you prefer)

And I'm gonna name three symphonies I don't particularly like, but still think are better than Dvorak's 9th and are consensual choices, just for the sake of the argument :
Bruckner 9 (or 7 or 8)
Tchaikovsky 5 (which I think is stronger than the more famous 6th, but you can say 6th if you prefer)
Brahms 4 (or 1 or 2 or 3, you get the idea)

Plus, as some others have said earlier, Dvorak's 7th and 8th could be considered superior to his 9th.

And I haven't even named my favorite symphonies.

maybe you should name your favorites then.  cuz none of these is close, not by a long shot.  Beethoven's 9th and Tchaikovsky's 5th you could at least make the argument for.  It's not that these are bad composers.  Mahler 1, Sibelius 1, sure those are great.  Brahms and Bruckner though, I can go the whole rest of my life and not listen to them again. I mean I have opinions on all of these but I"m not gonna spend an hour just to type it up.

Offline nicmos

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2015, 01:16:55 PM »
Ah yes, Sleep.  Whitacre has many nice compositions, I"m not sure if I could pick one over the others, maybe Cloudburst, but this is definitely a good choice.

Rach 3 isn't even my favorite Rach concerto but I like most of his stuff.  If possible he's an underrated orchestra composer, rather than just a piano composer.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 01:29:25 PM by nicmos »

Offline Lucien

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #128 on: October 23, 2015, 01:32:48 PM »
10 symphonies I like more than Dvorak's 9th, in no particular order

Mahler 2
Shostakovich 5, 9
Tchaikovsky 5
Beethoven 5, 9
Dvorak 8
Bruckner 9
Brahms 1
Mozart 40

music is subjective though, arguing one piece is 'better' objectively than another just makes you sound really pretentious
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Offline Lucien

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2015, 01:33:52 PM »
cuz none of these is close, not by a long shot.

and what about those pieces makes them somehow inferior?
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Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2015, 03:22:31 PM »
This is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping would happen through me posting my top 50. I'm loving this.  :hat

Symphonies have been mentioned that will be on my list. Many that won't (Mahler isn't but only because, like Ives,  I don't have the familiarity that I have with other pieces). And some that haven't been mentioned are.

 I just got in the car to go home, so I'm gonna put on Ives 4 and check it out.
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Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #131 on: October 23, 2015, 04:12:43 PM »
 Just finished  listening to it, and wow. Loved it. Ives was insane.  You were not kidding about the second movement. Bombastic brass, and then that violin solo with the quarter tone music behind it… And then all of a sudden music that sounds like for marching bands playing different music at the same time… It was absolutely crazy. Which is why I love Ives.  He was always pushing the envelope, trying new things, doing things no one else had done before or who have done since.  I really need to listen to more of his music.

 I already have my list, but this piece would definitely be in my top 50 somewhere if I were to redo it.
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Offline nicmos

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #132 on: October 23, 2015, 07:50:34 PM »
cuz none of these is close, not by a long shot.

and what about those pieces makes them somehow inferior?

I'm not the guy who threw the first grenade.  Go talk to that guy.

Best way to put it is that each movement in Dvorak 9, either through melodic continuation or rhythm, maintains momentum in a way that no other symphony does.  It has no "dead spots".  And it's just so damn good.

Offline Fluffy Lothario

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #133 on: October 23, 2015, 08:10:44 PM »
I adore Rachmaninoff’s 3rd PC.

Dvorak’s 9th ain’t bad, but it never really stood out to me so much.

Offline Kilgore Trout

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #134 on: October 24, 2015, 01:16:03 AM »
I'm not the guy who threw the first grenade.  Go talk to that guy.
But you're the one that said you would be able to say why "they are all much worse than Dvorak's 9th". You just proved you were not able to do so.

Best way to put it is that each movement in Dvorak 9, either through melodic continuation or rhythm, maintains momentum in a way that no other symphony does.  It has no "dead spots".  And it's just so damn good.
So you're argument here is "it's good because it's good"? I've never said that Dvorak's 9th wasn't good. I just said it wasn't the best. You could said that all the symphonies I've named maintain momentum too, and most of them doesn't have any dead spots. These are just subjective impressions (I personaly think Dvorak 9th is full of "dead spots", conventional writing, melodic easines, and is overall pompous and shallow, but I wouldn't say it doesn't work). But they are all achievements in their own right, in ways Dvorak's 9th (which you could consider an achievement too) aren't. For example, as I've said, I don't like Bruckner 9th, but it does show an impressive mastery of development (which Dvorak's symphonies never does), and as such it's a great symphony and I understand why people might love it, and consider it one of the greatest symphony ever written.

Moreoever, the fact that you named Mahler 1 and Sibelius 1 (two youth works from the late XIXth century, when these guys wrote much better symphonies later) shows that you're mainly a romantic guy (and tend to like the more colorful, immediate and positive aspects of this kind of music). There is nothing wrong with that, but that might not make you the best judge for all the kind of music classical music has to offer.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 02:25:18 AM by Kilgore Trout »

Offline nicmos

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #135 on: October 24, 2015, 08:50:10 AM »
lol.  snob alert!

"development" as it is used most post Beethoven symphonies, is synonymous with (wait for it, DT reference since we're on a DT forum) Outcry-type passages that don't actually add to the enjoyment of the listener.  you could certainly call the middle section in that song development, but most people agree it doesn't make the song good.

dead spots doesn't mean the music just isn't good.  it actually has to do with the rhythm being absent and the melody or thematic lines being absent or so obfuscated that they are lost on anyone who isn't studying the score.  so I'm not just saying it is good because it's not not good.

parts of Mahler's and Sibelius' later symphonies are brilliant.  I just don't think they hold together as a whole as well as the firsts.  just as parts of all the symphonies you mentioned are brilliant.  but brilliant passages don't necessarily make brilliant symphonies.

I'm not sure why I have to like particular music do be able to appreciate classical music in your eyes.  I've listened to all the types of orchestral music from the early baroque to the avant-garde of the mid- and latter-20th centuries.  I know that I don't like a lot of it.  but it's not because I didn't give it a chance.

look, I don't want to keep arguing about this.  it's fine to have different tastes in music.  just don't go off insulting other people's tastes, especially in a place like this where you know people seek out stuff they like and are passionate and knowledgeable about it, or assume you can somehow appreciate it more than they do.

ok, reset.  I'd love to see a top 50 of yours Kilgore.  for real.  I might not like it but I sure would read it and listen to any pieces I haven't heard before.

Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***27-28
« Reply #136 on: October 24, 2015, 09:39:29 AM »
After listening to a bit more Ives I've wondered why I like Ives but don't like Schoenberg and Webern and I think I know why.

Ives was unique in that within his method of madness, he had polytonality, and tonality interweaved in and out of his music. I heard references to multiple folk songs, hymns, and patriotic music in much of his music (Variations on America, Symphony #4 had "Three Cheers for the Red White and Blue", etc). It was almost as if two melodies were playing at the same time in each speaker of the stereo system (a la Ornette Coleman with his free jazz). He experimented with tonation, quartertones, bitonality, etc. Tension leads to more tension, and then a little release, when BAM it goes into a different direction. He was so ahead of his time.

Schoenberg and his contemporaries were so structured in their music that they took out tonality in the music, especially with 12 tone music. I tried to compose a 12-tone song once (piano + woodwind trio) to try and make it tonal, and it was pretty much impossible. To me, it sounds like legato playing of random notes, even though there's structure behind it. They purposely took tonality out of it, and to me that took the music out of it, so people are basically playing only for the sake of playing. There's no tension because there's always tension. There's no release because there's always release. There's no buildup, it's just there.

That's just my take of it. And believe me, I listened to a lot of Webern especially in college... meh.

OK onwards.

28. Giacomo Puccini - La Boheme (1896)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHAS7r8Pd0k

La Boheme is probably my favorite opera. There are elements of other Puccini operas that I enjoy (Nessun Dorma obviously is one of the most beautiful arias written). It wasn't bombastic and ridiculous like Wagner, in my opinion. Yes most of his libretti were basically soap operas, but with La Boheme there was a sense of realism there as he tackled social topics in the Bohemian world (which over a century later have evolved but are still very much present), such as living for art (basically choosing art before money), disease (tb in la boheme, aids in rent), and others. This is the main reason I LOVE La Boheme.

27. Philip Glass - Metamorphosis (1988)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2inNYauU1o&list=PLD17F974B1B42858D

Minimalism again. I think this piece is beautiful. The evolution (although with similar structure) of the piece evolves until the last movement repeats the first movement. It's very slow (as metamorphosis is in nature), but it's very good, intricate, and calming. I know this type of music isn't for everyone, but I love it. It calms me down. And this particular piece I can play which adds to it.
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Offline Kilgore Trout

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***29-30
« Reply #137 on: October 24, 2015, 10:26:11 AM »
"development" as it is used most post Beethoven symphonies, is synonymous with (wait for it, DT reference since we're on a DT forum) Outcry-type passages that don't actually add to the enjoyment of the listener.  you could certainly call the middle section in that song development, but most people agree it doesn't make the song good.

Sure, strictly speaking, it does designate the middle part of the sonata form. But that is what Beethoven changed : with him, development became more important than the thematic expositions. Beethoven is the master of the symphonic form (and of musical form in general) because he can build long cohesive works from small thematic motives which have no musical interest in themselves (see the POM POM POM POM of Beethoven 5th, it's dull to the extreme without what is coming after that - Beethoven genius does not lie in the POM POM POM POM, it lies in what he does with it). As a general term, development designates all the tools a composer uses to build a structured discourse from a musical material without recuring to non-musical material. Development is what makes a piece coherent as a whole and what allows a serious composer to build large forms. It also allows the musical material to reach its most complex and complete appereances. It is the principle of germanic post-classic symphonic writing. A symphony without development is a symphonic piece, not a symphony. I've used the term development talking about Bruckner, not because he writes long "outcry-type passages", but because the way he develops the musical material over long period of time is staggering in terms of imagination and creativity.

And development is actually what makes a piece of serious music good, at least in the germanic post-classical tradition. The main interest of the germanic tradition lies in the exploration of the possibilties of the musical material, which the development allows.
It might seems snobish, but it is the truth. This is how and why that music was written. You can listen to a germanic symphony like it was bel canto, but you're missing 98 % of it. And yes, a lot of listeners nowadays listen to classical music as it was pop music. But it's not pop music.

And for the record, Dvorak's 9th follows the Beethovenian tradition, and uses development a lot.

(and obviously, things changed again with the XXth century, with the teleologic forms of Sibelius, the integration of baroque forms into symphonies with Hindemith and Hartmann, and the mixing of the symphonic poem form with the symphonic form, but the idea of structuring musical discourse through transformations of the musical material remained)

It actually has to do with the rhythm being absent and the melody or thematic lines being absent or so obfuscated that they are lost on anyone who isn't studying the score.  so I'm not just saying it is good because it's not not good.

I'm not sure what you're meaning here, but rhythm and thematic lines are not absent of these pieces. These impressions say something of the listener, not of the pieces themselves. Pop music and the culture of fast entertainement have damaged the capacity of listeners to actually hear what is going on in these pieces. At the beginning of the XXth century, melodies and thematic lines were not obfuscated to the listeners, because they knew how to listen to these pieces, they were more patient and didn't expect music to give them instant pleasure. They actually hear the music. But you can still get these habits. You don't need to know how to read a score for that.

parts of Mahler's and Sibelius' later symphonies are brilliant.  I just don't think they hold together as a whole as well as the firsts.

Actually, they hold together much more than their first, especially Mahler's : his first symphonies are programatic and can be quite messy formaly, whereas 5-6-7 and 9 are much more tightly structured. In terms of form, Mahler's 6th is one of the most tightly written of the whole repertoire. A good comparison can be made between the finales from 2 and 6, which are both very long (and I love both) : the finale from 2 is a linear, almost narrative, movement, with little formal structure and little logic outside a succession of episodes, while the finale from 6 is an abstract and very tight work of developement of musical material, where thematic exposition merge with development in a extremly dense course, and as such is an absolute (and somehow puts an end) to the germanic symphonic tradition. Mahler was a great composer in the sense that he was able to switch from free-form, almost symphonic poems movement, to tightly structured sonatas forms, and at his best mix the two, giving a impression of great freedom and dramatism while maintaining the cohesion of the whole.

Sibelius is another beast, reversing the germanic way of doing things (exposing the musical material, then developping it) into a teleologic form, where the complete form of the musical material is actually exposed at the end - the musical material is actually building itself along the course of the work. It's a totally different way of dealing with structure and time.

This is not stuff you get only by reading or analysing the score : you can actually hear the formal construction of pieces, the motivic transformation, the macro and micro-structures, but it does require certain habits of listening (and good interpretations, because the best one are the ones that will make come alive these formal aspects, that will make you feel them). But when you hear it, the pleasure is only greater. The difference is like trying to read a text in a foreign language you know only a few words of, and reading a text in a language you know how to speak.

look, I don't want to keep arguing about this.  it's fine to have different tastes in music. just don't go off insulting other people's tastes, especially in a place like this where you know people seek out stuff they like and are passionate and knowledgeable about it, or assume you can somehow appreciate it more than they do.

Ok, I might have sound harsh, but I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I was merely saying that Dvorak 9th is not that good, and that they are plenty of others fishes. There is so much more to classical music than the mainstream stuff.

ok, reset.  I'd love to see a top 50 of yours Kilgore.  for real.  I might not like it but I sure would read it and listen to any pieces I haven't heard before.

I'm not sure it would be of any use. Most of the pieces I would chose would be from not very well known composers (and some almost unknown), and not accessible ones (and something like 30 % of it would being hardcore contemporary music, that I've not problem saying it's really hard to "get" unless you're a full time classical listener who is also heavily interested in the evolution of serious music over the last century).
Honestly, my top 50 would be a snobish one even to snobish casual classical listeners.  :facepalm:

Offline Kilgore Trout

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***27-28
« Reply #138 on: October 24, 2015, 10:53:48 AM »
Ives was unique in that within his method of madness, he had polytonality, and tonality interweaved in and out of his music. I heard references to multiple folk songs, hymns, and patriotic music in much of his music (Variations on America, Symphony #4 had "Three Cheers for the Red White and Blue", etc).

Symphony 4th has "three cheers for the red white and blue" ? This is the list of the quotes that has been identified in the sole second movement : THE BEAUTIFUL RIVER, BEULAH LAND, Camptown Races, Columbia, the Gem of the Ocean, Garryowen, GOD BE WITH YOU, Hail! Columbia, HAPPY LAND, Home! Sweet Home!, Irish Washerwoman, Long, Long Ago, Marching Through Georgia, MARTYN, Massa's in de Cold Ground, NETTLETON, Old Black Joe, On the Banks of the Wabash, Pig Town Fling, Reveille, St. Patrick's Day, Street beat, SWEET BY AND BY, THROW OUT THE LIFE-LINE, Tramp, Tramp, Tramp, Turkey in the Straw, Westminster Chimes, Yankee Doodle; Ives, "Country Band" March; Sousa, Washington Post March.

 :rollin

Schoenberg and his contemporaries were so structured in their music that they took out tonality in the music, especially with 12 tone music. I tried to compose a 12-tone song once (piano + woodwind trio) to try and make it tonal, and it was pretty much impossible.

Actually, Berg wrote tonal passages with series. The serie from his violin concerto "to the memory of an angel" is actually build in a way that it allows to make tonal relations appear (with a Bach quote thrown in for good measure). It is one of the reason it is one of the rare serial works that the audience likes (that, and the subtitle).
Moreover, some other composers did write complete tonal works with series. It is very much possible, but is contrary to the whole purpose of the serie.

That being said, the "tension all the time leads to no tension at all" argument is a common one, which hold some truth. I would argue about that around here :chill.

Offline splent

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Re: Splent's Top 50 "Classical" Works - ***27-28
« Reply #139 on: October 24, 2015, 10:55:49 AM »
Maybe list a few of yours after my list is completed, Kilgore. I'm always open for hearing new music in that regard. As you can see my taste is fairly broad (with the exception of Wagner and tone row/12 tone music I'm an open book basically)
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