Author Topic: Illegal Immigration into Europe  (Read 4844 times)

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Online El Barto

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #105 on: September 21, 2015, 12:04:18 PM »
So much for discussion

In terms of changing the thread title, I think we all know most of the people are "refugees" but the moment they break through a country's borders illegally (which they have done) then I think that makes it illegal immigration right?  legit question since the terminology used seems to be a problem.

It's not illegal to seek or claim asylum. People travel to their destination country, then immediately make an asylum claim. You can't make an asylum claim (at least in the UK) whilst still abroad.
As an EU member, is it possible to illegally cross a Hungarian border?

And my personal opinion is that their legal status isn't at issue, but using the blanket "migrant" label dismisses a greater issue and honestly seems like a political tactic to me.
But once you illegally cross a border such as Hungary, even if the reason is asylum, then does that make it illegal?  Why else would they be putting up fences?  Your link is only for the UK's stance on asylum so them saying no such thing is an illegal asylum does not mean it is the same for another country.
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Offline Rick

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #106 on: September 21, 2015, 12:09:24 PM »
So much for discussion

In terms of changing the thread title, I think we all know most of the people are "refugees" but the moment they break through a country's borders illegally (which they have done) then I think that makes it illegal immigration right?  legit question since the terminology used seems to be a problem.

It's not illegal to seek or claim asylum. People travel to their destination country, then immediately make an asylum claim. You can't make an asylum claim (at least in the UK) whilst still abroad.

But once you illegally cross a border such as Hungary, even if the reason is asylum, then does that make it illegal?  Why else would they be putting up fences?  Your link is only for the UK's stance on asylum so them saying no such thing is an illegal asylum does not mean it is the same for another country.

No. Not illegal. They're only technically 'illegal' from the point their asylum claim has been refused, and their appeal rights are exhausted, and they choose to stay in that country. It's not different all over Europe; there are big conventions and acts that cover this that apply to all countries in the union.

http://blogs.redcross.org.uk/refugeesservices/2015/03/lets-lay-down-the-law-on-asylum-illegals/

Countries put up fences because they don't want a load of people to be able to enter and claim asylum. It doesn't make those that do enter and claim asylum 'illegal'. It's a deterrent; a hurdle.

Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #107 on: September 22, 2015, 12:13:19 AM »
We are talking about refugees from war here. Once they reach the hungarian border and read the "you shall not pass" sign, do you really expect them to just say "oh well" and turn back?

And to constantly talk of illegal immigrants instead of refugees from war is at least biased.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2015, 05:52:05 AM »
I can go ahead and say your post is like reading the independent and the green party's news bulletin, but you only said it to try and gain some kind of moral high ground, which I will not provide.

Secondly, if you read my posts properly (I even underlined it) I said "Potential members of ISIS" which a few people here agreed with me on as these people are unchecked and unknown, so it's not really a ridiculous statement.

Independent's owned by a posh Russian guy who's friends with David Cameron. They're a pretty centrist paper. The only reason I check it is for Robert Fisk articles.

Just from Syria - 4 million refugees.Yeah, there's a CHANCE there may be a couple of pro-ISIS people amongst them, but that doesn't mean the other 3999998 humans aren't people in desperate need. Pro-ISIS people could come over through 'legit' channels too; it's not too terribly hard for them to get a work or student visa [and would probably result in less checks... students aren't subject to a grilling about all details of their life]; ISIS have enough funds to be able to afford the application fees. The 4 pilots in 9/11 went to get trained how to fly planes in the USA years before, thanks to Bin-Laden's funds. It's ridiculous scare-mongering - if people have fears about refugees being pro-ISIS, then they'd surely apply that to every single person of middle-eastern origin that's traveled to Europe through whichever route.... and that's just getting silly, and you're smearing all Syrians/muslims with the idea that they're all [potential] terrorists.

Enjoy your life  :tup

You're twisting my words.

I'm saying, when we aren't doing any background checks, most of these people have no passports or documentation, you don't know if they are ISIS or not... Please don't try and say I'm calling all Syrians/Muslims terrorists, because I'm clearly not.



And in terms of "illegal" when the UK said that we will accept 20,000 that we shall pick up from camps in Syria, anyone who sneaks the border, is breaching the border rules.


Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #109 on: September 22, 2015, 06:25:12 AM »
Maybe all of those refugees are illegal because they don't have an exit visa?

The constant searching for arguments or, in the hungarian case, application of new laws to declare them illegal is just political tactics. If they say that they don't want to help refugees from war, who have suffered a lot, some people may say that this is not very nice. If you say that you don't want illegal immigrants, and emphasize the "illegal", more people are going to say, yes, you're right, if they are illegal we don't want them.


Offline Stadler

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #110 on: September 22, 2015, 08:14:51 AM »
Maybe all of those refugees are illegal because they don't have an exit visa?

The constant searching for arguments or, in the hungarian case, application of new laws to declare them illegal is just political tactics. If they say that they don't want to help refugees from war, who have suffered a lot, some people may say that this is not very nice. If you say that you don't want illegal immigrants, and emphasize the "illegal", more people are going to say, yes, you're right, if they are illegal we don't want them.

I can say this as someone who isn't invested in this as much as others here (perhaps that isn't a good thing) but I don't think it's as cut and dry as that.  We hate politicians and politics (and not all of that hate is unjustified) but part of what they are empowered to do is make these hard decisions for us.   I pay taxes.  I have bought into the social contract.  I have been doing my part.   There is at least SOME degree of due diligence that my government has to do for me to make sure that that bargain is upheld.  I get the humanitarian aspect of this, I get that many of these people didn't choose to be in that situation, and so I would support doing what is necessary - I pick that word very carefully - but that doesn't mean whatever kneejerk reaction feels good at the moment.   There HAS to be some discipline applied to this.  This is what we ask government to do, and why we even have government in the first place (I say that in a bipartisan way).

Offline Rick

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2015, 12:54:30 PM »
You're twisting my words.

I'm saying, when we aren't doing any background checks, most of these people have no passports or documentation, you don't know if they are ISIS or not... Please don't try and say I'm calling all Syrians/Muslims terrorists, because I'm clearly not.

'Background checks' on Syrians coming into UK via a visitor/work/student/family visa wouldn't have "hung out with ISIS and beheaded some guys and really hates the West" come up either, unless they were particularly notorious and western intelligence services happened to know about them. If you were ISIS, would you send a prominent individual across the border as a trojan horse?- no - you'd send a committed unknown who wouldn't have any history when they ran background checks. Or, y'know, you'd use the internet to train-up a UK-resident who was willing to travel to Syria anyway.


Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2015, 06:13:27 PM »
Geez.

ISIS is made up of locals plus people who have travelled from European countries aswell as the states.

Background checks on people who aren't providing passports can show if any of these people are known to have fled their countries to join.

Are you telling me that you haven't seen the reports of the people who fled to join ISIS? Their identities are known.

Are you also telling me that allowing people into a country with no background checks is a good idea?

Offline Rick

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #113 on: September 23, 2015, 01:28:39 AM »
You totally misunderstand my post :)

Annual foray into DTF feels exhausted now, enjoy your bubble!

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #114 on: September 23, 2015, 05:06:05 AM »
You totally misunderstand my post :)

Annual foray into DTF feels exhausted now, enjoy your bubble!

You too!   :tup

Offline TL

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #115 on: September 28, 2015, 03:09:19 PM »
First, let me say that while I may disagree with what some people in this thread are saying, I'm not making a personal judgment on anyone here.

@johnnybaxy;
The migrant crisis is a very complicated issue without an easy answer. On that point, I think we can agree.

I'll start by addressing two points;
The first is that, yes, the government of Saudi Arabia are being a bunch of dickish assholes. That's nothing new for them. Yes, the absolutely could and should take in a significant number of refugees. They aren't though, which is no excuse for other countries to turn around and do the same. I think we can all strive to at least be better than Saudi Arabia.

The second is the assertion that 'some of them might be from ISIS'. There are plenty of other arguments you could make against accepting varying levels of migrants, but I don't think this one really holds up. It feels like baseless fear mongering. I'm not saying you're doing that. I'm saying there are a lot of loud voices in the media doing that, and they can be very persuasive. I'm not blaming you if you've heard some of them and found them convincing. Many have spent a lot of time and effort to be as convincing as possible. I'm not going to make any claims about 'left' or 'right' wing media either. This is a complicated issue, and doesn't fall neatly along partisan lines.

Even if there were a handful of ISIS members in those crowds (and personally, I find it pretty unlikely), it's rarely ideal to avoid doing something just because "there's a vague, non-zero chance that a bad thing could happen". Even if there are a few bad eggs, that still leaves a staggering number of innocent people who need help. Now, how we help them, whether certain countries are equipped to help and to what extend, and so forth are certainly up for debate. I just don't think vague ISIS threats have any place in the discussion.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #116 on: September 28, 2015, 03:35:40 PM »
This topic was the main segment on Last Week Tonight last night

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqvYhb3wf4

Besides being hilarious, lots of good points as usual from John Oliver.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #117 on: September 29, 2015, 09:24:29 AM »

Even if there were a handful of ISIS members in those crowds (and personally, I find it pretty unlikely), it's rarely ideal to avoid doing something just because "there's a vague, non-zero chance that a bad thing could happen". Even if there are a few bad eggs, that still leaves a staggering number of innocent people who need help. Now, how we help them, whether certain countries are equipped to help and to what extend, and so forth are certainly up for debate. I just don't think vague ISIS threats have any place in the discussion.

Well, surely you understand that your "personally, I find it pretty unlikely" is just the same speculation as the "fear mongers", just in reverse, but beyond that, why then the need for any immigration policy or procedure to begin with? 

Systems aren't in place just when it's "convenient"; surely there is a way to accommodate both sides of this.  Yes we will take in those that need help, but we will do so in an orderly manner (that's not to say "slow") that preserves the reasons we restrict this kind of movement in the first place.   

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #118 on: October 09, 2015, 06:11:20 AM »
Right, Only because it's kind of relevant here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34460325

Toshiko took the drawing down from her Facebook page on Wednesday, citing a request made by Hyams, who earlier tweeted: "Shocked+deeply saddened anyone would choose to use an image of an innocent child to express such perverse prejudice".

The photo was taken down because it was 'wrong to use a child for propaganda' effectively..

You mean like the photo of the Syrian boy? That was kind of used for the same purpose....

Offline cramx3

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #119 on: November 14, 2015, 12:15:50 PM »
http://www.infowars.com/report-paris-attacker-was-syrian-refugee-who-arrived-in-greece-last-month/

Well, this discussion is going to heat up a bit more

Really sad is all I can say

Online El Barto

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #120 on: November 14, 2015, 04:48:06 PM »
Such is the cost of humanity.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #121 on: November 15, 2015, 11:27:00 AM »
As I said, I will bump this thread in regards to Paris, but I'm leaving it a few days whilst families mourn and the dust settles.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #122 on: November 16, 2015, 06:04:02 AM »
Following the Paris attacks you'd think it was time people became serious about the dangers of an open border to refugees from what is now almost a terrorist run state, especially after in February we were warned by ISIS themselves that this exact situation would happen.. Look at all the articles form the UK alone in February reporting the claim that ISIS will come to Europe through a refugee crisis.

But no, Immediately after the attacks people were more concerned about an anti-Islam backlash rather than attacks occurring again.

I can not stand or feel sorry for the French government (I sympathise with the civilians) the blood is shared on their hands too, they ignored the warnings and carried on taking in refugees without checks, apparently today it has come out that turkey warned France about one of the attackers before hand (http://bbc.in/1PKctlw).

ISIS must be sat there laughing at the fact we are more concerned about stopping an anti-Islam backlash than stopping a similar attack again.


This is the first of many, hundreds and thousand of unchecked people are already in Europe, Who knows who is within them....

Where next? London? Munich? Manchester? Prague? Berlin?

Only time can tell.




Offline Chino

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #123 on: November 16, 2015, 06:10:04 AM »
I'm actually shocked we haven't seen a more or less global shutdown of the borders. The recent military base raid in MA has got be kind of nervous.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #124 on: November 16, 2015, 06:22:57 AM »
I'm actually shocked we haven't seen a more or less global shutdown of the borders. The recent military base raid in MA has got be kind of nervous.

I'm sat here in a town called Bolton, UK.

Just on the outskirts of Manchester, I visit Manchester every week, a vastly populated city, with a large immigrant population.

I can't say I wont be surprised if it happens there. But there's nothing You or I can do about this. If you try to warn people about these threats, It gets dismissed as "racist nonsense".

Apparently France have shut their borders, but on Saturday the UK took it's first batch of refugees on Saturday morning... but I guess we're doing it in a more sensible manor as we are picking them up from the camps, whether we check their histories or not I'm unsure.

Offline Chino

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #125 on: November 16, 2015, 06:25:39 AM »
I'm actually shocked we haven't seen a more or less global shutdown of the borders. The recent military base raid in MA has got be kind of nervous.

I'm sat here in a town called Bolton, UK.

Just on the outskirts of Manchester, I visit Manchester every week, a vastly populated city, with a large immigrant population.

I can't say I wont be surprised if it happens there. But there's nothing You or I can do about this. If you try to warn people about these threats, It gets dismissed as "racist nonsense".

Apparently France have shut their borders, but on Saturday the UK took it's first batch of refugees on Saturday morning... but I guess we're doing it in a more sensible manor as we are picking them up from the camps, whether we check their histories or not I'm unsure.

Seeing as three of the attackers have already been identified as French citizens, I'd say the borders are only a sliver of what they need to be worried about. What if there's a hundred more guys already there just patiently waiting?


Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #126 on: November 16, 2015, 06:52:57 AM »
I'm actually shocked we haven't seen a more or less global shutdown of the borders. The recent military base raid in MA has got be kind of nervous.

I'm sat here in a town called Bolton, UK.

Just on the outskirts of Manchester, I visit Manchester every week, a vastly populated city, with a large immigrant population.

I can't say I wont be surprised if it happens there. But there's nothing You or I can do about this. If you try to warn people about these threats, It gets dismissed as "racist nonsense".

Apparently France have shut their borders, but on Saturday the UK took it's first batch of refugees on Saturday morning... but I guess we're doing it in a more sensible manor as we are picking them up from the camps, whether we check their histories or not I'm unsure.

Seeing as three of the attackers have already been identified as French citizens, I'd say the borders are only a sliver of what they need to be worried about. What if there's a hundred more guys already there just patiently waiting?

As 2 of the attackers have been confirmed has coming with refugees, 2 out of the 5 with confirmed nationalities are from the middle east, if closing the borders stops 40% of terrorist attacks would you not consider it important?

Yes three were French and that's completely unacceptable (but what part of the story isn't?). I may be starting a new thread on something relating to that in a few days or so.

Offline Chino

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #127 on: November 16, 2015, 06:55:39 AM »
I'm actually shocked we haven't seen a more or less global shutdown of the borders. The recent military base raid in MA has got be kind of nervous.

I'm sat here in a town called Bolton, UK.

Just on the outskirts of Manchester, I visit Manchester every week, a vastly populated city, with a large immigrant population.

I can't say I wont be surprised if it happens there. But there's nothing You or I can do about this. If you try to warn people about these threats, It gets dismissed as "racist nonsense".

Apparently France have shut their borders, but on Saturday the UK took it's first batch of refugees on Saturday morning... but I guess we're doing it in a more sensible manor as we are picking them up from the camps, whether we check their histories or not I'm unsure.

Seeing as three of the attackers have already been identified as French citizens, I'd say the borders are only a sliver of what they need to be worried about. What if there's a hundred more guys already there just patiently waiting?

As 2 of the attackers have been confirmed has coming with refugees, 2 out of the 5 with confirmed nationalities are from the middle east, if closing the borders stops 40% of terrorist attacks would you not consider it important?

Yes three were French and that's completely unacceptable (but what part of the story isn't?). I may be starting a new thread on something relating to that in a few days or so.

I'm not saying don't close the border. France should have done that before even identifying the shooters. All I was getting that was IF France manages to close the borders, and IF there just so happens to not be any more of these terrorists disguising themselves as refuges hiding in France, there is still the very real risk of French citizens continuing to cause all kinds of havoc.

Online El Barto

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #128 on: November 16, 2015, 08:13:03 AM »
I posted this elsewhere and I'll throw it here since it's on topic and I rather like it.
Quote from: Some Random Asshole
The price of humanity is that sometimes you have to assume some risk for doing the right thing. If you can help to alleviate some suffering, the human thing is to do so even if it means that a tiny minority of them might seek to do you harm. You do what you can to minimize the risk but you don't forget who you are, lest you become as bad as the people you're afraid of. 

Personally, I'm far more afraid of the people who would like to become animals to fight animals than I am of the insignificant risk that religious fanatics represent to me.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2015, 11:12:42 AM »
But these fanatics DO represent a threat to you.

You're from the US correct? The US is taking the refugees in, therefore there could be some concealed within them. Making your country as likely as mine to be the next target, potential you, especially as what America represents to these idiots.

Not just that but your armed forces are invested in the fight.

Your country is invested in this as much as mine, as much as all of  Europe.

Online El Barto

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #130 on: November 16, 2015, 11:18:24 AM »
Yes, the US is taking in refugees. We're also allowing low-grade morons to drive on the highways. We allow anybody and their pet to own all the guns they want. We spend money blowing up bridges in other countries rather than repairing their own. These all represent a greater risk to me. I still drive, support gun ownership and cross bridges because I understand the risks. I also support helping out people who are in full-blown crisis mode* despite the fact that .003% of them might be rotten. I consider that part of being a human and not a pussy.


*remembering, of course, that both your country and my own both share a tremendous amount of responsibility for their suffering in the first place.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #131 on: November 16, 2015, 08:16:30 PM »
I agree with that. And let's be frank, we've been target #1 (or target #1B after Israel) for decades. If they've really wanted to be here this really doesn't make it any easier than it's already been. It's not like they've been foiled in attempts in immigrating here and this opens up the flood gates.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #132 on: November 17, 2015, 05:11:43 AM »
Yes, the US is taking in refugees. We're also allowing low-grade morons to drive on the highways. We allow anybody and their pet to own all the guns they want. We spend money blowing up bridges in other countries rather than repairing their own. These all represent a greater risk to me. I still drive, support gun ownership and cross bridges because I understand the risks. I also support helping out people who are in full-blown crisis mode* despite the fact that .003% of them might be rotten. I consider that part of being a human and not a pussy.


*remembering, of course, that both your country and my own both share a tremendous amount of responsibility for their suffering in the first place.

If you read back through the thread, You'll see up until the attacks, I never said I had a problem with legitimate refugees, I said they should be thoroughly checked before being allowed in. I also stated my concern at the possibility of them not being sent back after the conclusion of war.

After the attacks it became brutally obvious to me that Europe should shut it's borders for the time being and work out who the hell we actually took in. Perhaps introduce ground troops over there and set up protected refugee camps.


"We're also allowing low-grade morons to drive on the highways"

If you can't see the difference between international terrorism and the possibility of a fatal car crash, I don't know if there's much point in continuing.


Offline cramx3

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #133 on: November 17, 2015, 05:44:24 AM »
Im all fine with doing checks, but as Calvin said, what database can you use to check the refugees?  I just don't think you can realistically.

My co-worker is married to a german, she has told us that Germany is requesting any refugees that wants government support to get fingerprinted so they can start a formal way of tracking the refugees and apparently a lot are not accepting that.  This is second hand info, not reported info so I cannot validate it, but if that is true, then I find it hard to accept a refugee if they refuse to play by the rules.

You are starting to see some US governors say their states will not accept refugees now.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #134 on: November 17, 2015, 06:12:13 AM »
Well, They knew who this guy was...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34835046

Also

 "French Prime Minister Manuel Valls says intelligence services have identified 10,500 people in France as radicalised.

He also tells French TV that parliament will vote on Wednesday on whether to extend France's state of emergency by three months. He will hold meetings with mayors from across France on Tuesday." (On BBC Live updates section)

Online El Barto

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2015, 08:57:48 AM »
You also forgot to mention, we also disallow and suspend the licenses of low-grade morons.  Imagine if we decided against doing that because it would "hurt their ability to earn a living."

Further, I wouldn't be surprised if many people here would be all for more detailed licensing requirements.  I wouldn't be surprised if something like that is talked about in the "Things that Piss Me Off" thread.
Fair enough, but not really the point, which I think you know. I'm viewing it as risk/reward, profit and loss. The risk is completely negligible, just like a thousand other things we do every day. I consider holding on to values of decency of far greater reward than selling them out for the tiniest uptick in our security. Alas, holding onto our values is something we just like to pretend to do in light of irrational fear.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #136 on: November 18, 2015, 05:17:02 AM »
"EU slammed as EIGHT migrants use SAME passports as Paris bomber

THE European Union has come under fire after it emerged as many as eight migrants have reached Europe using travel documents almost identical to those belonging to one of the Paris bombers."

"Home affairs select committee member, James Berry, said: “In the UK we have the reassurance that we are not full members of the Schengen agreement so the passports of all people travelling here are checked thoroughly.

“But Europe is too porous – if terrorists get though the initial border then there are no further checks before they get to the place they want to attack.”


(http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/620188/ISIS-European-Union-Ahmad-Almohammad-James-Berry-Lord-Green-of-Deddington-Keith-Vaz)

Offline cramx3

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #137 on: November 18, 2015, 06:09:47 AM »
On a personal level, I would really hate for Europe to stat putting up borders.  It's really nice to be able to drive country to country hassle free when visiting.  Sadly that privilege may be gone.

Offline Implode

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #138 on: November 18, 2015, 08:08:12 AM »
It really makes me appreciate how somehow the US is still united as one country after all these years of disagreements and even a civil war.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Illegal Immigration into Europe
« Reply #139 on: November 18, 2015, 01:26:38 PM »
Well Europe was never a nation really, where as USA was formed as one.

I don't even know what direction this thread can go in really, I honestly thought that after the attacks, people would think twice, but all it seems to have done is make people more ignorant to the problem

I can't put my feelings into words better than this.