Author Topic: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis  (Read 13005 times)

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Online Dream Team

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #105 on: September 01, 2015, 08:22:47 PM »
If I'm remembering correctly, someone brought the analysis up on his forum and then he commented on it.

Remember, people don't want facts to interfere with attacking MP.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #106 on: September 02, 2015, 06:21:37 AM »
I think the implication and speculations regarding what Mike Portnoy did or did not do, what he "forbade" and what he didn't, in the studio five or more years ago is completely ridiculous.   None of us where there, none of us know if this issue was even discussed, let alone HOW it was discussed and who took what sides on what. 

Mike is fastidious, and with his love of "nuggetz", I can just as easily see him saying "hey, let's use these as a template!  Sort of a revisit, or "internal inspiration corner", and the band saying NO, then when Mike leaves, doing that as a "put this in your pipe and smoke it, Mr. I-Want-A-Break!". 

Just as plausible, but alas not as much fun for the Portnoy bashers. 

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #107 on: September 02, 2015, 11:11:40 AM »
 :justjen

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #108 on: September 03, 2015, 08:46:59 AM »
https://www.guitarworld.com/lord-strings-shred-king-john-petrucci-discusses-dream-theaters-new-self-titled-album

Nevermind, here ya go.
Case closed.

 :facepalm: :lol 
                                                                         (Awake - track 8)

Let’s check out some Outcry / Metropolis
0:00 to 0:41 Met =
0:00 to 0:44 Outcry
Simple keyboard drone fade in with some echo type effects. Instead of guitar hits, keyboard notes

0:41 to 1:21 Met =
0:44 to 1:36 Outcry
Big guitar power chords, with sliding, slippery type fills. Denser chord work with keyboards.

1:21 to 1:41 Met =
1:36 to 1:58 Outcry
Guitar really takes over with more single note lines. On repeat, keyboard joins single line counterpoint type lines

1:41 to 1:50 Met =
1:58 to 2:10 Outcry
Guitar sets up main verse theme. Drums become more AC/DC like (Kick – Snare – Kick Snare)

1:50 to 2:12 Met =
2:10 to 2:33 Outcry
Main theme continues as vocals finally join in. on the same riff as the previous measures.

2:12 to 2:27 Met =
2:33 to 2:50 Outcry
Big huge guitar chords over “There’s no more freedom”

2:27 to 2:36 Met =
2:50 to 3:01 Outcry
One long guitar power chord that feels like a mini intermission or announcement that the first movement is over.

2:36 to 3:08 Met =
3:01 to 3:29 Outcry
“I was told there’s a miracle” with very clean guitar and keyboard hits. Ending with “lake of fire”. The *mellow* bridge part

3:08 to 3:26 Met =
3:29 to 3:52 Outcry
Met = As a chile, Outcry = Rise up

3:26 to 3:35 Met =
3:52 to 4:03 Outcry
Similar repeat of 1:21 to 1:41 of Met (and corresponding Outcry) no vocals.

3:35 to 3:57 Met =
4:03 to 4:26 Outcry
Like previous section, except guitar keeps playing same/similar riff while keys pull back to make room for the vocals to come back in for another verse

3:57 to 4:13 Met =
4:26 to 4:43 Outcry
Prechorus section similar to 2:12 to 2:27 Met section (corresponding Outcry prechorus)

4:13 to …. Met =
4:43 to … Outcry
The big long “intermission” chord again, except this time it leads into the instrumental jam session as opposed to circling back to a verse like the first time.

Nailed it!.. And some still can't see the similarities.. They copied the structure/mood of five songs of their most popular (and overrated ;D) album.. What finally led them to five new and different songs.. I'm glad they've done that.. Of course MP's leave has something to do with it, only that we'll probably never know exactly in which way..
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Offline 425

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #109 on: September 03, 2015, 09:24:08 AM »
I just don't understand what either side is trying to prove here.

Sure, there are some definite similarities (I mean, Petrucci says they're unintentional, maybe he's telling the truth, but a lot of the stuff is really prominent, particularly on OTBOA which I would have noticed even without this stuff). And some cases where the similarities are exaggerated (they absolutely did not "copy the moods," ToT-147. LNF is a totally different mood than UAGM, Outcry is a totally different mood than Metropolis).

So what? Honestly, so what? Why do we do this every few weeks, only to have it devolve into "MP warriors and DT haters vs. blindly loyal DT fanboys"? Why do we do it, what does it matter?
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Offline Mladen

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #110 on: September 03, 2015, 09:44:58 AM »
Case closed.

 :facepalm: :lol 
                                                                         (Awake - track 8)
Exactly. Even when JP says the accusations are not true, people are willing to take his words as lies only in order to be able to continue with their ADTOE bash-fest. The way I see it is, if we acknowledge JP's words as the truth, we can enjoy the analysis in itself and not worry about it turning into attacks.

Interesting post by The Dark Master on the previous page.

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #111 on: September 03, 2015, 06:03:44 PM »
The way I see it is, if we acknowledge JP's words as the truth, we can enjoy the analysis in itself and not worry about it turning into attacks.

Nobody is really doing what you are saying.  They are saying the structures are the same ... period.  Then the defenders of the faith come in and discuss all the nonsense.  If the DoF would just keep their paranoia out of it, we could just have a nice analysis talk.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #112 on: September 03, 2015, 06:26:18 PM »
They absolutely did not "copy the moods," ToT-147. LNF is a totally different mood than UAGM, Outcry is a totally different mood than Metropolis.

Okay, I give you that this particular aspect of the controversy is very subjective.. Using a word as "mood" is not being so much accurate, is it?.. And I used it to serve that purpose.. Things like these are never black or white.. And that's the problem with the words in bold.. By use them, you're denying the possibility that the respective songs don't look alike at all.. And this actually confuse me because you said too that "there are some definite similarities".. If there are definite similarities between two songs, then their mood can not be different... or at least not different enough to get to say that they have totally different moods..

But ok, I admit it sounded like I was being radical (thus foolish) by saying that they copied the structure and mood.. But what I didn't specify (taking it for granted) is that you don't make a song only by doing its structure or creating a given mood for it.. You have too add notes to it.. Scales, melodies, harmonies.. All these, and relatively more, is what ends up making the song.. And yeah, you have many ways to do that structure, mood, etc: among them, the thoughtful one, and the easy one.. The latter would be the method that is being debated.. You can copy others, you can copy yourself.. But whoever and whatever you copy, that doesn't guarantee you to construct a song that anyone could like, and even that yourself could like..

TLDR: to copy a song structure doesn't make it less or more good.. You have to actually compose the song.. That's always the hard part, whether you extract the structure from another song or not..

And DT, as other in this thread have said, have such an unique song structures made all over their catalogue, that is impossible (*I* *guess*) at some point not to feel like 'Hey, we should do a new song with that structure... It's so awesome that it's a shame see it used in just one song..'

Why do we do this every few weeks, only to have it devolve into "MP warriors and DT haters vs. blindly loyal DT fanboys"? Why do we do it, what does it matter?

I don't see none of those around here.. All I've seen in this thread are constructive discussions full of ambiguous but funny (and some even inspiring) arguments about one of the most striking, intricate and controversial topics the DT world has had in the last few years..

"What does it matter?".. What does it matter football when you're in a DT forum?.. :lol
OTOH, this IS important..
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Offline 425

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #113 on: September 03, 2015, 07:08:37 PM »
Okay, I give you that this particular aspect of the controversy is very subjective.. Using a word as "mood" is not being so much accurate, is it?.. And I used it to serve that purpose.. Things like these are never black or white.. And that's the problem with the words in bold.. By use them, you're denying the possibility that the respective songs don't look alike at all.. And this actually confuse me because you said too that "there are some definite similarities".. If there are definite similarities between two songs, then their mood can not be different... or at least not different enough to get to say that they have totally different moods..

There are structural similarities. If I write two songs with the exact same song structure, but one is happy and one is sad, the moods are totally different.


Why do we do this every few weeks, only to have it devolve into "MP warriors and DT haters vs. blindly loyal DT fanboys"? Why do we do it, what does it matter?

I don't see none of those around here.. All I've seen in this thread are constructive discussions full of ambiguous but funny (and some even inspiring) arguments about one of the most striking, intricate and controversial topics the DT world has had in the last few years..

Then the defenders of the faith come in and discuss all the nonsense.  If the DoF would just keep their paranoia out of it, we could just have a nice analysis talk.

This is not constructive. I'm sure I could find something similar from the other side.



"What does it matter?".. What does it matter football when you're in a DT forum?.. :lol
OTOH, this IS important..

I wasn't asking that as a snarky thing, by the way. I was really asking: Why does it matter? What is either side seeking to prove?
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Then it's only a matter of time

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #114 on: September 03, 2015, 07:34:59 PM »
There are structural similarities. If I write two songs with the exact same song structure, but one is happy and one is sad, the moods are totally different.
This is, once again, the problem with using a word like structure because it isn't just talking about verse-chorus-bridge as names of sections.  Prog usually has sections that really don't fall into those names (and only used for lack of a coined term).  We are talking about instrumentation as well.  The moment of the band pulling back as a guitar power chord rings for a few measures.  And that evokes a mood of the end of a movement.

Quote
Then the defenders of the faith come in and discuss all the nonsense.  If the DoF would just keep their paranoia out of it, we could just have a nice analysis talk.

This is not constructive. I'm sure I could find something similar from the other side.
It gets right to the core of the problem.  Go to OP.  They gave a very respectful analysis and didn't try to bring in any motives to why this happened.  They were immediately met with scorn and ridicule.  Maybe just try not jumping on somebody for analyzing music for having a tin foil hat, and just maybe it would be a pretty straightforward discussion sharing musical analysis.  You'd think that would be welcomed by DT fans.

Quote
Why does it matter?
Because this is what musicians or just music appreciation entails.  Deconstructing songs.  Talking about music on a deeper level than "rawks".

Quote
What is either side seeking to prove?
Then you are asking the wrong question.  They are sharing and looking for constructive discussion.  Seems like only one side is trying to prove something.

How many pages of this and I think only two actual posts on discussing the structures in any form of detail and thoughtfulness.  I made an effort to get it back to the OP's intent by providing something I broke down in 2011.  But considering 4 years later the BS back and forth won't die down, I doubt it ever will.  Maybe it will work in 2025 when people are far enough removed from feeling like they need to defend DT ... from nothing.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2015, 08:06:57 PM »
There are structural similarities. If I write two songs with the exact same song structure, but one is happy and one is sad, the moods are totally different.

Yes, exactly.. But two things:

1) I never said (and anyone with an ounce of sense would not either) that structure is the same that mood.. I was precisely differentiating from one another.. So yeah, even songs with the same main melodies, similar lyrics, and equal content (like the About to Crashs) could have different moods, though I know it's not the perfect example..

2) [And, again, this is nothing but a subjective issue] I think the moods of PMU/OtBoA, LNF/UaGM, Mpt1/Outcry, FFH/WFS and LtL/BAI are respectively the same, or at least very similar.. And I know it's not just me..

I was really asking: Why does it matter? What is either side seeking to prove?

Ah, OK.. That's another thing.. And maybe you're even hitting the nail on the head by asking that.. Idk what's everyone seeking to prove.. But the thing is that there's nothing to PROVE, or, more precisely, there's no way to prove these kind of things.. Even if JP is telling the truth.. This "truth" is still relative and very obscure anyway.. It's an unusual situation.. And if you go deeper into the causes, and want a prove of something at the same time, you may not getting very far or making the thing less clear than it is from all the arguments we're having right here..

Maybe JM is the one behind all this and we are wasting our time paying attention to the wrong guy.. :justjen :lol
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Offline 425

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #116 on: September 03, 2015, 08:13:11 PM »
We are talking about instrumentation as well.  The moment of the band pulling back as a guitar power chord rings for a few measures.  And that evokes a mood of the end of a movement.

Sure. On a micro level there might be moments like that. But Outcry absolutely does not evoke the same emotion as Metropolis. And I find it bizarre that some people are contending that it does.

This is not constructive. I'm sure I could find something similar from the other side.
It gets right to the core of the problem.  Go to OP.  They gave a very respectful analysis and didn't try to bring in any motives to why this happened.  They were immediately met with scorn and ridicule.  Maybe just try not jumping on somebody for analyzing music for having a tin foil hat, and just maybe it would be a pretty straightforward discussion sharing musical analysis.  You'd think that would be welcomed by DT fans.[/quote]

There are some questionable comments on the first page, but nothing as bad as what you're making it sound like. But like I said, both sides of this are being pretty insulting towards the other.

Someone who doesn't hear the comparison is not a "defender of the faith" by default. And in my opinion, saying things like that is a cheap way of "scorning and ridiculing" those who disagree with you.


Quote
Why does it matter?
Because this is what musicians or just music appreciation entails.  Deconstructing songs.  Talking about music on a deeper level than "rawks".

There's a lot to be desired in terms of analysis here. Personally, I don't get anything from a list of timestamps and descriptions of similarities. Okay, there are similarities. No one has shown me why I should care beyond "hmm, that's sort of interesting" which has been my reaction the many times when this has come up in the past.

Maybe if someone were to elaborate on what the similarities mean in the context of the song. I've tried to note that what we have are songs that come across very differently despite their notable similarities in structure. That line of conversation hasn't taken me far. Some people have agreed, everyone on the side of "look at all these similarities," however, has either ignored what I've said or continued to insist that the things I think are strong differences are actually similarities.

And all the while everybody calls everybody else fanboys or haters or "defenders of the faith."

Quote
What is either side seeking to prove?
Then you are asking the wrong question.  They are sharing and looking for constructive discussion.  Seems like only one side is trying to prove something.


Maybe that's the problem. Once again, what does this mean for the songs? There is not a whole to gain from a list of timestamped similarities.

How many pages of this and I think only two actual posts on discussing the structures in any form of detail and thoughtfulness.  I made an effort to get it back to the OP's intent by providing something I broke down in 2011.  But considering 4 years later the BS back and forth won't die down, I doubt it ever will.  Maybe it will work in 2025 when people are far enough removed from feeling like they need to defend DT ... from nothing.

I keep trying to talk about the different emotional and musical aspects of the song, as I think it's interesting that two songs have strong similarities but use those structures to achieve different ends musically, but that really hasn't gotten anyway. I just get told "no, they're copies."

But considering 4 years later the BS back and forth won't die down, I doubt it ever will.  Maybe it will work in 2025 when people are far enough removed from feeling like they need to defend DT ... from nothing.

Personally, I think jumping to the conclusion that this is what people are doing when they say they don't hear the similarities or quote Petrucci disputing the claim is not productive. But what do I known.
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Calvin6s

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #117 on: September 03, 2015, 08:53:27 PM »
I started to respond, but it really just seems counterproductive.  Talking about talking instead of talking about something.  I don't care about any of this other than just letting the analysis talk happen.  Maybe somebody that has something to offer has decided it just isn't worth the nonsense.  That's sad.

Offline Cable

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #118 on: September 03, 2015, 09:33:54 PM »

Sure. On a micro level there might be moments like that. But Outcry absolutely does not evoke the same emotion as Metropolis. And I find it bizarre that some people are contending that it does.



It evokes a similar emotion for me, instrumentally at the least.  Outcry is more emotional to me as a result of the lyrical topic. But instrumentally, I get a similar vibe.


 I just get told "no, they're copies."


They are not.

Let's hit this-
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7vw9BHKDZhpke_mnJD4UqQ


Look at that guy's Satriani Coldplay video. For copyright stuff fear, I don't want to do the exact link. But he goes over how the songs have more in common than a main melody. That is kind of what I'm trying to say- stuff like substituted chords with similar sounds, similar tempos and so on make a big deal. And actually, the two songs here (If I Could Fly and Viva La Vida) are quite different structurally. So how can two songs completely different sound similar for a good chunk, but not be similar? 12 notes here, only so many ways to organize them.
---

Offline 425

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #119 on: September 03, 2015, 10:54:01 PM »
I started to respond, but it really just seems counterproductive.  Talking about talking instead of talking about something.  I don't care about any of this other than just letting the analysis talk happen.  Maybe somebody that has something to offer has decided it just isn't worth the nonsense.  That's sad.

That's fair, I don't even hardly care about this anymore. I just hope that instead of attacking people, there might be a little more understanding of why people disagree.

Some people might legitimately not hear it. That doesn't mean they have religious sentiments towards the John Petrucci.
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Offline Mladen

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #120 on: September 04, 2015, 05:47:06 AM »
The way I see it is, if we acknowledge JP's words as the truth, we can enjoy the analysis in itself and not worry about it turning into attacks.

Nobody is really doing what you are saying.  They are saying the structures are the same ... period.  Then the defenders of the faith come in and discuss all the nonsense.  If the DoF would just keep their paranoia out of it, we could just have a nice analysis talk.
Good point, I'll try to pay more attention to what the people are saying at the moment. It was full of negativity back in the day, I'm glad that the people have moved on if that's the case.

Offline fischermasamune

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #121 on: September 04, 2015, 10:48:44 AM »
The only instance where DT really ripped off previous work was in BC&SL. It had A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, Learning to Live, Pull Me Under and The Glass Prison all in a single album. Yet people complain about ADTOE and IAW.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #122 on: September 04, 2015, 09:33:37 PM »
 :lol  Nice one..


But now seriously, BC&SL is better than all those toghether.. :hefdaddy :heart :metal
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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #123 on: September 04, 2015, 09:41:00 PM »



But now seriously, BC&SL is better than all those toghether.. :hefdaddy :heart :metal


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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #124 on: September 04, 2015, 10:32:48 PM »
You're smart enough for me to explain.. Go live your life now..

I live with serenity now.. Not self-righteous hate..  :azn:
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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #125 on: September 05, 2015, 01:12:17 AM »
But now seriously, BC&SL is better than all those toghether.. :hefdaddy :heart :metal

I like BCSL better than most, but no. TCOT is top 5 DT and ANTR is top 10, but Octavarium and Learning to Live are top 5 as well. And every song in that list rates higher than A Rite of Passage and probably Wither.
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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #126 on: September 05, 2015, 04:24:42 AM »
:lol  Nice one..


But now seriously, BC&SL is better than all those toghether.. :hefdaddy :heart :metal

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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #127 on: September 05, 2015, 10:08:48 AM »
But now seriously, BC&SL is better than all those toghether.. :hefdaddy :heart :metal

I like BCSL better than most, but no. TCOT is top 5 DT and ANTR is top 10, but Octavarium and Learning to Live are top 5 as well. And every song in that list rates higher than A Rite of Passage and probably Wither.

I'm with you on Wither, one of my least favorite DT songs...but I never understood the hate for AROP.  Then again, my introduction to metal and my favorite band of all time would be Black Sabbath so I love that DT had a more scaled back and heavy song. 

Offline 425

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #128 on: September 05, 2015, 10:47:18 AM »
I don't understand the hate for AROP either. I like it quite a bit. I like ACOS, 8VM, LTL, PMU and TGP better than it, which isn't exactly the harshest criticism AROP has ever received.

Also I would rate Wither much more favorably than you do.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #129 on: September 05, 2015, 05:44:42 PM »
To be more precise:


A Change of Seasons < A Nightmare to Remember       The Glass Prison > The Shattered Fortress

Pull Me Under = A Rite of Passage                               Learning to Live = The Best of Times

The Silent Man (... let's say) = Wither                          Octavarium < The Count of Tuscany



But whatever, let's get back to the topic..
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Offline 425

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #130 on: September 05, 2015, 07:23:41 PM »
The one of those where you ranked the non-BCSL tracks higher is one where I disagree with you :lol
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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #131 on: September 05, 2015, 07:32:35 PM »
 :P   :lol
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Offline Cable

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #132 on: September 06, 2015, 12:57:59 AM »
I don't understand the hate for AROP either. I like it quite a bit. I like ACOS, 8VM, LTL, PMU and TGP better than it, which isn't exactly the harshest criticism AROP has ever received.

Also I would rate Wither much more favorably than you do.


Me as well. AROP is great fun for me to play along to. I love, LOVE the chorus and everything about it. The lyrics can be taken differently than what the song is about. The guitar lead line is stellar. The vocal melody and harmonies are great. And JM playing basic 8th notes complements it perfectly.

The first verse riff is just sweet, and it not being on the start beat of the measure is cool. MP's backing stuff works well, despite being the big symptom of the problem in the band.

The instrumental section is hit and miss, which is probably where a lot of dislike comes from (iPhone/iPad). I like the syncopated riff incredibly, and the part of JP's solo in that section reminds me of fusion- not sure if it is.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #133 on: September 06, 2015, 01:06:43 AM »
^^^ Yes. I agree with all of that. Great song, highly underrated.  :metal

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #134 on: September 06, 2015, 02:07:00 AM »
I don't understand the hate for AROP either. I like it quite a bit. I like ACOS, 8VM, LTL, PMU and TGP better than it, which isn't exactly the harshest criticism AROP has ever received.

Also I would rate Wither much more favorably than you do.


Me as well. AROP is great fun for me to play along to. I love, LOVE the chorus and everything about it. The lyrics can be taken differently than what the song is about.

That is part of what makes great lyrics.  You need to be able to debate and discuss.  Even though AROP is pretty blunt, there is still some ambiguity.  TCOT and ANTR are about one thing...and that is indisputable.  Definitely the main thing I dislike about those two songs (as opposed to the growls which I actually dont give a shit about)

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #135 on: September 09, 2015, 01:03:00 AM »
That is part of what makes great lyrics.  You need to be able to debate and discuss.  Even though AROP is pretty blunt, there is still some ambiguity.  TCOT and ANTR are about one thing...and that is indisputable.  Definitely the main thing I dislike about those two songs (as opposed to the growls which I actually dont give a shit about)

Let's be honest here, does anyone really think they know what AROP is about? All of it? We've all got our ideas and preconceptions on the subject and the verses seem a bit more straight forward but seriously, that song isn't blunt at all. Easily the most creative lyrics on the album IMO.  ;)

That is kind of what I'm trying to say- stuff like substituted chords with similar sounds, similar tempos and so on make a big deal. And actually, the two songs here (If I Could Fly and Viva La Vida) are quite different structurally. So how can two songs completely different sound similar for a good chunk, but not be similar? 12 notes here, only so many ways to organize them.

And even less ways to organise them in a harmonically pleasing succession. I don't think there's any smaller combination of notes (that sounds good to human ears) that hasn't been tried at this point. What makes something ultimately unique is how it's structured, the tones used, the sounds used, the mood created, how well it disguises the obvious. Eg. counter rhythms and melodies can disguise simpler patterns by applying them in a polymetric way. Certain chords can seem less ordinary by adding say a simple extension or suspension. Stuff like that. Then again being unique doesn't equate to something being good, but sometimes something seems good because it seems unique. It's just if you break it down it probably isn't really unique. lol

We're all using the same notes so it's pretty much impossible to come up with something unique unless you start making irregular or unpredictable sequences and those can be fun but don't necessarily stay good for very long because (imo) one of the reasons we enjoy music is because we connect with the patterns. If there's no predictable pattern to latch onto or the listener doesn't feel the pattern, they probably won't think it's a very good or catchy piece of music.

Offline erciccio

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #136 on: September 10, 2015, 08:18:35 AM »
Oh no....not this again please...

How can you even imagine that a band can "get inspired" by the structure of a song?
It's like getting inspired by the frame of a painting...it simply doesn't make sense!

You can "get inspired" (read "copy") by ideas, riffs, moods, solos, even time signature...but not stuctures.
YOU DON'T WRITE SONGS starting from a structure.

Yes, there are similiarities in the structures...but so what?
If you look at most band, you will see that they tend to have similiar structures in different songs across the albums...

In this specific case, structures are similar but all the rest of the songs has nothing to share..
I would have been "worried" in the opposite case...

 :facepalm:



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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #137 on: September 10, 2015, 10:05:09 AM »
How can you even imagine that a band can "get inspired" by the structure of a song?
It's like getting inspired by the frame of a painting...it simply doesn't make sense!

You can "get inspired" (read "copy") by ideas, riffs, moods, solos, even time signature...but not stuctures.
YOU DON'T WRITE SONGS starting from a structure.
I get what you're saying about simply writing a song based on generic structures (guitar intro, overture, verse, bridge, chorus, solo, etc). But that's not how DT (at least in the past) did so. In the past, when they developed different parts that they would piece together, these were labeled according to what they reminded the band of. So at times it might be more generic, but usually something far more detailed, such as "Crimson Setup" "UK Rise" and "Muse Riff". So in that case, it is possible to write and be inspired something based on such structures.

Actually, the SOC contest that the band had in 2003, where fans were encouraged to write their own music based on the structural charts (with each section having a descriptive name) the band had written for Stream of Consciousness proves that it can be and has been done. So why is it so hard to believe that the band couldn't have done the same thing, at least as a starting point?


Yes, there are similiarities in the structures...but so what?
If you look at most band, you will see that they tend to have similiar structures in different songs across the albums...

In this specific case, structures are similar but all the rest of the songs has nothing to share..
I would have been "worried" in the opposite case...

 :facepalm:
No offense, but your arguments here have already been discussed in this thread - why not have a look at what was already mentioned?
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline CDrice

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #138 on: September 10, 2015, 11:49:53 AM »

How can you even imagine that a band can "get inspired" by the structure of a song?
It's like getting inspired by the frame of a painting...it simply doesn't make sense!


Actually I think it would be more like getting inspired by the composition of a painting and it is one of the big aspect of making an impactful picture. Deciding on a composition (the painting's structure) is one of the first thing one would do before actually painting. The big difference though, is that in music structure is not as important as in paintings.


YOU DON'T WRITE SONGS starting from a structure.


As far as I know things like symphonies are built from a set structure of four movements. So it's definitely something that has been done before. And I don't see why it couldn't still be done today.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 11:58:07 AM by CDrice »

Offline Lucien

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Re: Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis
« Reply #139 on: September 10, 2015, 12:24:49 PM »
As far as I know things like symphonies are built from a set structure of four movements. So it's definitely something that has been done before. And I don't see why it couldn't still be done today.

Yes, and during the Classical era, each movement also had their own structure, i.e. 1st movement was sonata form, 2nd and 3rd were ternary, and 4th was either sonata form again or rondo
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