Author Topic: The Savatage Discography - Result and cause...  (Read 37165 times)

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Offline Podaar

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2015, 04:20:10 PM »
I have a strange relationship with this record. I love the music and as DM says, the band's growth in crafting the music really shows with Power of the Night. The production was much better than the previous records and I'm quite happy with the full sound of the record. But...

The lyrical content is just too kitschy for me. There's just to many attempts and "metul mulisha" anthems and shocking sexual innuendo. To me it's clichéd and tries too hard to be edgy. I don't know...I didn't really expect them to always stay with mythology themes or have some deep political message but I'd expect something a bit more adult to go along with the more carefully crafted music. For what it's worth, I had the same complaint about many other bands that were popular at the time (see DM's post above).

So, as long as I tune out the lyrics, this album rocks my world. The older I get, the more difficulty I have with it though.
"Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are God. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are God.” — Christopher Hitchens

Offline Lowdz

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2015, 04:25:30 PM »
I'm glad I don't take too much notice of lyrics, unless they are truly awful or awesome, or I would have to like a different form of music.
I can see what you mean, it is a bit cliche and dodgy but so was most metal lyrics at the time. I've heard far worse. Things would get a lot better though.

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2015, 04:47:18 PM »
I'm gonna take a listen to this one again.  Haven't dug it out in ages.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2015, 06:17:20 PM »
Musically, it's an excellent record, easily the best thing they had done up to that point in time.  The lyrics, however, are rather lacking.  It's not so much that they're bad, but they are basically just making par given the genre of music and the time period.  Lyrically, I think Jon (and Keith, since he did write a good amount of lyrics for the record) we basically just trying to make the band sound metal.  Ultimately, though, I think one of Paul's biggest contributions to Savatage creatively, if not the biggest, was giving them a real shot in the arm in the lyrical department.  He brought real life events and themes of introspection that the band had never really bothered to explored before, and encouraged Jon to do the same.  I think Jon really came into his own as a lyricist with JOP; in early Savatage, he sometimes sounded like he was trying a bit to hard to be edgy, while in later 'Tage he was very much working in Paul's shadow.  By the time he got around to JOP, he had grown a lot as a person, and was much more inspired to write about what was on his mind.

Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2015, 08:08:16 PM »
I've never had any issues with the lyrics.  To me, they are mid 80s heavy metal 101

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2015, 08:12:58 PM »
I should be clear; I'm not really a lyrics person.  I listen to the music first and foremost.  So the fact that early Savatage lyrics aren't exactly the greatest doesn't really bother me in the least.

Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #76 on: August 24, 2015, 08:18:12 PM »
The only one I recall thinking was pretty lame (but funny) was Skull Session .  But in general............

I don't take too much notice of lyrics, unless they are truly awful or awesome
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #77 on: August 24, 2015, 08:45:06 PM »
I don't care about lyrics either.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2015, 06:04:07 AM »
Just had a listen to POTN for the first time in a long time.  I find it just a solid and very enjoyable metal record.  Drops off slightly after the excellent Fountain of Youth, but a great step up form FFTR, and a perfect stepping stone to Mountain King.

Criss' solo in In My Dream, could be one of his most underrated and forgotten solos, fucking incredible.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 06:09:47 AM by wolfking »
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Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2015, 07:44:08 AM »
Wow, really good write-ups and a lot of interesting information. Keep it up Dark Master !!!

My love for Savatage was really long in the making: I first came across them, when my sister played Gutter Ballet and HOTMK for me. I really liked it. I then got Sirens but somehow I never (to this day) came around to listen to Dungeons, POTN and FFTR. When Streets came out, again my sister introduced the record to me and I liked what I heard. Then somehow I lost track of them.

Some years later a friend of mine played the song Edge of Thorns in his car and I asked him what band it was. He answered Savatage and at first I wouldn’t believe him, because the singer sounded nothing like Jon and I hadn’t heard about Zak taking over. Anyway, again I really liked it, bought the record, listened to it some time and lost track of them again.

Then one day I was bidding for a pack of Iron Maiden cds at ebay (I was slowly turning my vinyl and tape collection into a cd collection) and the package I got had five Maiden cds and, for reasons unknown, one Savatage cd, Gutter Ballet, which I had only on cassette. This cd rekindled my love for Savatage and I’ve followed them ever since. Now they are a top 10 band for me.

But, as I mentioned earlier, I still haven’t listened to Dungeons, POTN and FFTR. Dungeons wasn’t available at the local record stores and POTN and FFTR were criminally expensive and had cheesy album covers. But someday I will complete my collection.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline Lowdz

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2015, 02:14:01 PM »
Just had a listen to POTN for the first time in a long time.  I find it just a solid and very enjoyable metal record.  Drops off slightly after the excellent Fountain of Youth, but a great step up form FFTR, and a perfect stepping stone to Mountain King.

Criss' solo in In My Dream, could be one of his most underrated and forgotten solos, fucking incredible.

I had a sneaky listen last night and enjoyed it alot more than I remember. The guitar tone was shitty though.

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2015, 03:57:35 PM »
Just had a listen to POTN for the first time in a long time.  I find it just a solid and very enjoyable metal record.  Drops off slightly after the excellent Fountain of Youth, but a great step up form FFTR, and a perfect stepping stone to Mountain King.

Criss' solo in In My Dream, could be one of his most underrated and forgotten solos, fucking incredible.

I had a sneaky listen last night and enjoyed it alot more than I remember. The guitar tone was shitty though.

It is a bit thin I agree, but I always remember spinning it quite a bit and enjoyed it just as much too.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2015, 08:35:33 AM »
It seems to me the trebly guitar tone is something 80's engineers were going for, don't you think? I've gotten used to hearing similar tones from that era.
"Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are God. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are God.” — Christopher Hitchens

Offline Lowdz

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2015, 10:21:19 AM »
It seems to me the trebly guitar tone is something 80's engineers were going for, don't you think? I've gotten used to hearing similar tones from that era.

I've just realised I was talking about the tone on Fight For the Rock then got mixed up when kade mentioned PotN. It was the FFTR tone, not PotN.

I generally like trebly guitar sound. George lynch in particular. I love the BFTA tone, or even Ratt's guitar sound. Criss' tone on FFTR was dull.

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2015, 10:53:14 AM »
I've never made it all the way through FFTR. I'm saving my listen to that for next week's installment. I'll keep an ear out for the tone.
"Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are God. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are God.” — Christopher Hitchens

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2015, 08:29:48 AM »
I've never made it all the way through FFTR. I'm saving my listen to that for next week's installment. I'll keep an ear out for the tone.

I almost never listen to FFTR as is.  I usually swap out certain tracks I feel bring the album down, in particular the re-record of "Out On the Streets", "Crying for Your Love" and the two cover tracks.  I replace "Crying.." with it's demo version "Fighting for Your Love," which I feel is a much better song, and swap out the pointless remake of "Out on the Streets" for "The Message," an unused track from the FFTR-era.  There is also an unused demo from the HOTMK sessions called "This is Where You Should Be" that I suspect may actually be older (part of the song is from an old Avatar demo called "Walk Upon the Water") that I feel fits in rather well with FFTR.  Normally when I listen to their discography, I use my "fixed" version of FFTR.  Next Monday will be the first time in quite a while that I have listened to the album as it is, so we'll see how I feel about it now.   :P
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 08:38:05 AM by The Dark Master »

Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2015, 08:47:31 AM »
I'm going to listen to it for the first time in awhile as well.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2015, 07:43:52 AM »
I'm definitely going to be following this. They have been a top 10 band of mine since Gutter Ballet came out.  I'm looking forward to this. Not just because of how much I love the band, but I don't know if I've ever met anyone who knows more about the band. You are the Setlist Scotty of Savatage!   :metal

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2015, 08:45:31 PM »
So is everyone ready to talk about Fight for the Rock tomorrow?  I'm expecting we will all have a lot to say about that gem of a record!   ;)

Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2015, 09:10:36 PM »
I just listened to it for the first time in quite some time.

I like it!!

Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2015, 09:13:09 PM »
I will have to squeeze in a listen .  I bought it around the same time as I started with Savatage (the release of Gutter Ballet) but I am assuming I wasn't impressed as I can't recall playing it really.   I do like the song Fight For The Rock - I know that much.
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Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2015, 09:16:03 PM »
Crying/Fighting for Love is my favorite from the album

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - The legions growing stronger...
« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2015, 10:19:53 PM »
Will have a listen tonight or tomorrow.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Can't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #93 on: August 31, 2015, 04:06:06 PM »
   Part 4 – Can't bite the hand that feeds ya...




Released   30 June 1986
Recorded   England
Genre   Heavy metal, hard rock
Length   37:54
Label   Atlantic
Producer   Stephan Galfas, Robert Zemsky, Steven Machat, Rick Smith

Track listing

Side one   

1.   "Fight for the Rock"    Criss Oliva, Jon Oliva, Steve Wacholz    3:55
2.   "Out on the Streets"  C. Oliva, J. Oliva     3:58
3.   "Crying for Love"   C. Oliva, J. Oliva    3:27
4.   "Day After Day" (Badfinger cover)  Pete Ham   3:40
5.   "The Edge of Midnight" C. Oliva, J. Oliva, Wacholz   4:52

Side two   

6.   "Hyde"   C. Oliva, J. Oliva, Wacholz       3:51
7.   "Lady in Disguise"       J. Oliva          3:08
8.   "She's Only Rock 'n Roll"   C. Oliva, J. Oliva       3:14
9.   "Wishing Well" (Free cover)  John "Rabbit" Bundrick, Paul Kossoff, Simon Kirke, Paul Rodgers, Tetsu Yamauchi   3:20
10.   "Red Light Paradise"   Johnny Lee Middleton, C. Oliva, J. Oliva   3:56

Personnel

Band members
Jon Oliva – lead vocals, piano
Criss Oliva – guitars, backing vocals
Johnny Lee Middleton – bass guitar, backing vocals
Steve "Doc" Wacholz – drums, percussion

Additional musicians
Larry Dvoskin (credited as "Dvoskin") - keyboards
Brent Daniels - backing vocals

Production
Stephan Galfas - producer, engineer, mixing
Mark Jolley - engineer
Dan McMillan - assistant engineer
Bob Ludwig - mastering
Robert Zemsky - associate producer
Steven Machat, Rick Smith - executive producers

   There is a scene in the movie Get Him to the Greek where Jonah Hill's character, Aaron, is asked by his favourite rock star, Aldous Snow (played by Russel Brand), to give an honest opinion on Snow's most recent album, the critical and commercial bomb, African Child.  While discussing the record, at one point Aaron simply says, “It's just every artist has this one album that's just not good, and that's it.  Honestly, I listen to that and I'm just like, 'What is this piece of shit I'm listening to?  Do I even know this artist?  What the fuck was he thinking?'”  This is a sentiment with which many music fans of any age and any genre can certainly empathize.  No matter how much we may like a certain band, it always seems that, sooner or later, our favourite artists all make that “one album that's just not good.”  Sometimes, it's a matter of personal taste, but sometimes there is an album by a band that receives near universal condemnation from it's fanbase, the veritable black sheep of the discography.  For each such album made by a band, there is a different story behind why the record ended up the way that it is, and why it became so reviled among the fans.  Common re-occurring issues cited are record label interference, jarring stylistic changes, alterations to a band's lineup, and many more besides.  Whatever the reasons, such pariah records are to be found in the careers of almost any band or artist with a significant catalouge to their name.  Savatage has their own such untouchable record, an ill-fated 1986 outing entitled Fight for the Rock, although Jon Oliva has since given it the scathing nickname “Fight for the Nightmare”, a title which is doubtlessly reflective of his feelings on the making of the album.

   After Savatage's first album for Atlantic Records, Power of the Night, failed to even crack the Billboard Top 200, the powers that be at the label sought to discover why exactly their new signing, who has appeared so full of promise, had failed to attract even modest mainstream attention. Power of the Night had be produced by Max Norman, who had also produced for one of Jon Oliva's primary influences, Ozzy Osbourne, so the album's disappointing performance was not the result of a producer with a lack of pedigree.  Neither could anything wrong be found with the band themselves; their talents were above reproach.  In particular, Jon's songwriting abilities had been retained by the record label to write songs for some of their other, more commercially successful artists.  It then must have occurred to the head honchos at Atlantic that perhaps that band simply needed some guidance in selecting mainstream friendly tracks for their next album.  After all, if Jon Oliva could write such material for other bands, why couldn't he do the same for Savatage?  The executives at Atlantic decreed that Savatage would record the songs Jon had been writing as their next album.  The band was won over with promises that the record would make them into the next Journey, which, as Jon Oliva would later note, sounded very appealing to a bunch of guys living off of peanut-butter and jelly sandwiches.  And so Savatage was sent into the studio post haste with three weeks to record what was assumed would be a sure fire hit of an album.

   In hindsight, of course, it must be noted that the reasons why Power of the Night failed to break big are much more obvious now then they were back in 1985 and 1986.  As popular as heavy metal was becoming at the time, it was also becoming increasingly fractured, split between the ultra-slick and sleazy hair bands and the more rough and gritty thrash metal scene.  Savatage, a band who could feature songs like “Necrophilia” on the same album as songs like “Hard for Love”, was not an easy sell in such a market.  Perhaps Atlantic would have been better served had they chosen to market Savatage as the new WASP or Alice Cooper, since it was with such shock-rock acts the band seemed to share the most musical similarities.  Yet Savatage lacked the theatrical presence needed to be a shock rock band, despite a few such experiments in their earlier days.  Furthermore, in the mid-80's, Alice Cooper was still a little while away from making a comeback, while WASP was coming under fire from the PMRC, so perhaps billing Savatage as the next big shock rock act did not appear to be in the interests of the band or the label at the time.  Of course, considering that both WASP and Alice Cooper would remain infamous for years to come while Savatage would dwell in perpetual obscurity, perhaps they should have just bit the bullet and re-imagined Savatage as a shock rock act anyways. 

   Truth be told, most of the material to make it onto Fight for the Rock is not all that dissimilar from what was on Power of the Night, particularly on the album's somewhat more consistent back half.  This is still very much the same Savatage fans had come to know by 1985.  Not quite as raw as they had been on Sirens or The Dungeons are Calling, a bit more slick and polished, but undoubtedly the same band.  Jon still shrieks his sirens' wails and Criss' fantastic guitar work still shreds all over the record, and Wacholz still lives up to his Doctor Killdrums moniker.  Johnny Lee Middleton, in his first appearance on record with the band, proves a more then worthy replacement for the recently departed Keith Collins.  The band is still clearly Savatage, at least in sound.

   The main issues with this record are the songs themselves, and it is here that many of their older fans, raised on a diet of such ballsy material like “City Beneath the Surface” surely found their greatest disappointments.  Generally speaking, the tracks on Fight for the Rock are mostly in the same vein as those on Power of the Night, and, with the notable exceptions of the two cover songs, there is nothing on this record that would have appeared out of place on the previous album.  The main problem, it seems, is not so much the style of the music as it is the relative lack of real hard hitting rockers.  There are plenty of great songs on Fight for the Rock, but with the notable exception of “Hyde”, there is really nothing here to fill the void left by the absence of any truly heavy tracks.  What we find in their place is plethora of syth-laden ballads and mid-paced rockers with the typical 80's “sex, drugs, and rock & roll,” lyricism to be found on the offerings by many then-contemporary hair bands, and a near complete lack of bloody madness that had so characterized Savatage's earlier works, “Hyde” notwithstanding.  Power of the Night was a no-nonsense metal record with a couple of more commercially friendly tracks like “Hard for Love” and “In the Dream.”  Fight for the Rock is the near opposite; a slew of commercially friendly tracks with a couple of more metal cuts in the middle.

   The album starts of promisingly enough, with the opening title track offering some good, mid-paced distinctively 80's pop metal.  Sure, it's not as impressive at the opening title track of Power of the Night, but it's a fun and catchy number that is perfectly fine for what it is,  delivering something new with a nifty keyboard solo in the middle before Criss take the spotlight with one of his signature shred-fests.  “Fight for the Rock” may be a bit family friendly, but it's still got some balls.  The real issues start to crop up with track two, a re-recording of the Sirens ballad “Out on the Streets”.  Shortened by over a minute, and layered with all new synths and backing vocals, this version of the song is hardly bad, but it certainly lacks some of the earnestness and youthful charm of the original.  Worse, to anyone who had been following the band since their earliest days, this track will most definitely seem redundant.  I can certainly understand why the band would want to give it a revisit if they had expected this album to be their big break, but honestly, while I like “Out on the Streets” as much as the next Savatage fan, the song's not exactly hit single material, and simply slathering it in synths and backing vocals doesn't make it any better.

   The problems continue on the next song, “Crying for Your Love”.  A demo of this song, entitled “Fighting for Your Love,” appears on one of the re-issues of The Dungeons are Calling.  Perhaps the title change was the result of the band attempting to make up for missing out on the opportunity for radio play with “Hard for Love”.  Much like with “Out on the Streets”, “Crying for Your Love” is all dressed up in synths and reverb for it's appearance on Fight for the Rock, and while not a bad version by any means, it's not quite on par with the original.  Criss does gift us with a rather nice solo though, and as this isn't just a re-record of a song from a previous album, it's not quite as much as an annoyance as “Out on the Streets.”  It's worth pointing out, though, that at this point, three songs deep, two of the tracks have been ballads, something unheard of for Savatage up to this point in time, and something that certainly hammers home the message that this record was made more to please the label rather then the fans.  This trend continues on track four, the third consecutive ballad on the album, a cover of Badfinger's “Day After Day”.  There's some cool piano work here by Jon, but vocally he's very much phoning it in, and the melodies here are rather jarring compared to the established Savatage sound.  Perhaps this song would have been better used as a b-side for a single, but it has no business appearing on a proper Savatage album.

   Fortunately, we are in for a treat with the next song, a personal favourite, “Edge of Midnight.”  A slick synthesizer rendition of a baroque organ fugue sets a horror house mood before giving way to a hard rocking beat courtesy of Wacholz and Middleton.  Jon does his very best Dio impression here while Criss treats us to some of his finest licks on the album.  Perhaps Jon should have offered up his song writing services to Konami, because this song would feel right at home in a Castlevania game.  The lyrics here, doubtlessly intended to warn of supernatural dangers, are particularly ironic given album's dubious place in Savatage history (“Can't bite the hand that feeds ya”).  Definitely one of the highlights on an album that has thus far been rather lacking.  The creepshow thankfully continues on the next track, “Hyde.”  By far the most traditional Savatage track to be found here, “Hyde” has Jon Oliva back in his element, with a lyrical mix of fantasy and insanity, his madman shrieks resounding while Criss, Johnny and Doc push the track along with a relentless and inexorable beat spiced with some eerie synthesizers. 

   The following track, “Lady in Disguise”, is, like “Crying for Your Love”, another song that underwent some rather significant changes on the journey from demo to album.  While the lyrics are much the same, the music and vocal melodies have been completely reworked from the original.  The demo, which is on one of the re-issues of Sirens, is a guitar driven ballad much in the same vein as “Crying/Fighting for Your Love”.  The final version is something rather different and unique; an upbeat rocker laced with keyboards throughout that, much like the last record's track “Warriors” (although in a rather different way), hints strongly at the Broadway influenced direction the band would take on later offerings.  This time around, the changes made from demo to final product are mostly improvements, giving “Lady in Disguise” a rather distinctive identity, which the original demo lacked.  (As an aside, I had the pleasure of hearing Jon Oliva perform this song, in album version form, live on his Storytellers tour, where he noted his fondness for the song, if not for the record as a whole.)
   
   Next up is “She's Only Rock and Roll”.  Rather reminiscent of “Unusual” and “Stuck on You” from Power of the Night, this song is, despite the poppy hooks, one of the harder hitting tracks on Fight for the Rock.  If the last few songs were all about Jon Oliva, with so much focus on the vocals and keyboards, this track is all about the band.  Criss delivers a notably ripping solo here, while Middleton and Wacholz give us their signature twin thumping assault.  After that, we get the second cover tune, Free's “Wishing Well”.  Compared to “Day After Day”, this song is a much better fit for the band.  Wacholz and Criss in particular have some fun on this track with an avalanche of heavy beats and crunchy riffs.  The vocal melodies are clearly not Savatage, but musically this track is a much better choice for the band, as evidenced by the fact that Jon Oliva has performed it live with Jon Oliva's Pain.  One of the highlights of this track for me is the soft section before the solo, where the Castlevania keyboards make a brief return.  The album closes out with the chugging “Red Light Paradise.”  Much like “Hyde”, this is another of the more traditionally Savatage sounding cuts from the record, and would not have appeared out of place on Power of the Night.  Jon wails a bit more like his old self while Criss, Middleton and Doc let it rip all over the song, almost as if they've been waiting for much of the record to have a moment to just rock out.  With “Red Light Paradise,” Savatage finishes their most difficult record with a relatively strong track. 

   It should be noted that in addition to the demos of “Fighting/Crying for Your Love” and “Lady in Disguise”, there was another song that did was recorded during the Fight for the Rock time period but did not make it to the record in any form.  “The Message” is a hard-rocking number that would have added some much needed “oomph” to the album, and why it was left off is a mystery to me.  While not one of Savatage's most memorable tracks, it was certainly suitable for the album, and would have been a welcome addition, perhaps as a replacement for “Out on the Streets.”  The band also demoed up a new version of a doomy old Avatar song called “No More Saturday Nights” around 1985, although whether or not that track was intended for Power of the Night or Fight for the Rock is unknown.  “The Message” can be found on the same re-issue of Sirens as the demo of “Lady in Disguise.”  The '85 demo of “No More Saturday Nights” has never been officially released, although it can be heard on several bootlegs, as well as the original Avatar version.  A drastically reworked version of the song was recorded as a bonus track for the JOP record Global Warning.

   So, is Fight for the Rock as bad as the legends say?  Both the critics and the fans certainly thought so at the time.  While the album was the first by Savatage to crack the Billboard charts, it was widely panned upon release.  The metal press, who had heaped much love upon the first three Savatage albums, were scathing in their views of Fight for the Rock, while the Savatage fanbase was rather vocal in their disapproval of the record.  The band certainly took notice of this overwhelming dislike for the album, and while promoting it, only played songs from the album sparingly, mostly "Hyde" and the title track.  But Jon Oliva, despite his frank criticism of the process by which this record was produced, has notably been rather restrained in his criticism of the music on the record itself.  True, he has jokingly dubbed the album “Fight for the Nightmare” in interviews, but he has also played several songs from the album live, although not so much with Savatage as with JOP and his solo band.  And, truth be told, the songs on here are really not all that bad.  The cover tracks aside, all the original songs on the album sound Savatage enough.  The main problem most people have with this record is the blatantly commercial angle presented here.  With so many ballads and covers, and heavily produced synths and backing vocals, the album was clearly an attempt to polish the raw, young Savatage into something with more mainstream appeal, something that was at odds with the desires of the band's fanbase, and something the band themselves did with a distinct lack of enthusiasm.  But the songs are, for the most part, solid.  Jon Oliva probably put it best when he said that Fight for the Rock isn't a bad album, it's just a bad Savatage album.

   Perhaps it just wasn't time yet for Savatage to branch out into more mainstream territoy, or perhaps the band just didn't know how to do it on their own.  Given the relatively higher degrees of success they would experience with albums like Gutter Ballet and Edge of Thorns, both records with lots of keyboards and ballads, perhaps the only real issue with Fight for the Rock was that the band tried to do too much, too soon.  Savatage was a band brimming with ambition and talent, but they were still limited to a very genre-centric view of what kind of music a heavy metal band in the 80's could make, and so were incapable of fulfilling Atlantic's command of delivering a record that would bring them to the next level.  For that, they needed something more, and a fresh perspective on where they could go musically.  They needed someone who could bring something truly new to the table, a real game changer.  They needed someone like Paul O'Neill.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 05:12:49 PM by The Dark Master »

Online TAC

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Don't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #94 on: August 31, 2015, 04:12:16 PM »
Once I get through with my roulette this week, I have to listen to these early albums. Definitely will catch up.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Don't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #95 on: August 31, 2015, 04:14:58 PM »
Just put this album on.  Can't remember much at all.  Title track sounding decent.
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Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Don't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2015, 06:45:04 PM »
I have no problem with this album at all.  I really enjoy it.

Once again, outstanding write up DM

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Don't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2015, 06:51:31 PM »
I remembered a lot of these songs well when I heard them.  This is actually a really good album, just once you take out the covers, there's just not much there to sink your teeth into.  The songs are good though.
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Offline Deathless

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Don't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2015, 07:24:29 PM »
Fantastic write-up as always, DM.

Just getting into "The Edge of Midnight". After the intro the first half of the album is... really lacking. It's interesting to hear Savatage like this.

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Can't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2015, 07:56:10 PM »
I don't think it's that much of a depature to what they were doing really.  Just Savatage lite, but still with a distinct sound.  I don't think it needs the covers at all.
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Online jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Can't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #100 on: August 31, 2015, 07:58:23 PM »
you can't blame them for changing things up a bit in an effort to get some radio attention.

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Can't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #101 on: August 31, 2015, 07:59:39 PM »
Yeah, it was just what was happening at the time.  Certainly not the only band guilty of it, it just didn't work that well for Savatage.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Can't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #102 on: August 31, 2015, 09:09:54 PM »
I think today was the first time in maybe 5 or 6 years, since I re-discovered Savatage, that I actually listened to all of Fight for the Rock as it is.  My opinion of the album has changed quite a bit over time.  At first, I didn't have any problems with it; I rather liked some of the tracks in fact.  After a while, though, as I dug deeper into the band's history and found out exactly what happened with the album, as well as discovering lost tracks from the era like "The Message", "Lady in Disguise", and "Fighting for Your Love", I began to see some of the albums flaws, and the cover songs in particular began to grate on my nerves.  I've gone through a lot of alternate tracklists for the record over the years that I feel would have improved it.

After listening to it today, though, I am beginning to come back around to seeing it as a fine album, just not the right album for the band to make at that point in time.  Most of the songs are fine as is, and I've even taken a liking to the final version of "Lady in Disguise" after seeing Jon perform it live back in 2013.  I still prefer "Fighting for Your Love" over "Crying for Your Love", and I'm really annoyed by the re-record of "Out on the Streets", not so much because it's bad (although I do prefer the original version on Sirens), but more just that it feel redundant, especially considering that the original was only three year old when this record was made.  At the very least, my modified version of the album would look like this:

1- Fight for the Rock
2- The Message
3- Fighting for Your Love
4- Day After Day
5- Edge of Midnight
6- Hyde
7- Lady in Disguise
8- She's Only Rock and Roll
9- Wishing Well
10- Red Light Paradise

I'm still not certain how I feel about the covers.  I'll admit, I've grown kind of fond of "Wishing Well" recently.  Even so, neither that song or "Day After Day" really fit in with the rest of the Savatage discography.  I still think they would have been better as b-sides rather then on the album proper, although I don't hate them like I used to.  If I were to replace them, I'm not sure which songs I would use.  Two old Avatar songs "No More Saturday Nights" and "Living on the Edge of Time" we both later demoed by Savatage, but both those songs I feel fit better on Dungeons.  There was an unused demo from the Hall of the Mountain King era called "This is Where You Should Be" that sounds like it is probably from the pre-Paul O'Neil era, so it probably could have been used on this record. 

Either way, the album could still use some improvements to make it sound more like a proper Savatage record, but even as it is, it's not a bad album, and is far from the complete train wreck many make it out to be.

By the way, guys, thank you all for your kind comments.  It's really appreciated!    :)

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Can't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #103 on: August 31, 2015, 09:16:27 PM »
I think Wishing Well is a lot better than Day After Day.  Day After Day just doesn't work and having it at track 4 doesn't help the album IMO.  Wishing Well I can live with as it's track number 9.  I really like the first 3 songs, Edge of Midnight and Hyde.  All good stuff.
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Offline Lowdz

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Can't bite the hand that feeds ya...
« Reply #104 on: September 01, 2015, 04:48:51 AM »
I think the big problem was the label expecting Savatage to be a hit at all. They weren't going to be MTV darlings - they didn't have the looks or image for that. They should have been marketed more in the heavier direction with the Thrash bands or maybe Queensryche and the label should have been happy with the "cult" status that would afford. They were never going to be Poison/ Bon Jovi / Def Leppard and to think they were their label must have been snorting some good stuff.
Other than Metallica who had to dilute their sound to do it, I can't think of any bands as heavy as Savatage that had any mainstream success.