The Savatage Discography - Result and cause...

[Deathless]

Only complaint I have from the Wacken clips is the tempo. They seem to be really slow on a lot of the songs.

[The Dark Master]

Poets and Madmen write-up coming today.  I'm hoping to have it done by the afternoon as I have to work this evening.  In the event that I cannot finish it before I go to work, then I will post it later tonight before I go to sleep.

[The Dark Master]

Part 12 – Result and cause...




Released   April 3, 2001
Recorded   2000 – 2001
Genre   Heavy metal, power metal
Length   62:36
Label   SPV/Steamhammer
Nuclear Blast Records
Producer   Paul O'Neill, Jon Oliva

Track listing

All lyrics written by Paul O'Neill.

1.   "Stay with Me Awhile"     Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   5:06
2.   "There in the Silence"     Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   4:57
3.   "Commissar"     Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   5:36
4.   "I Seek Power"     Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   6:03
5.   "Drive"     Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   3:17
6.   "Morphine Child"     Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   10:12
7.   "The Rumor"     Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   5:16
8.   "Man in the Mirror"     Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   5:56
9.   "Surrender"     Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   6:40
10.   "Awaken"     Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   3:23
11.   "Back to a Reason"     Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   6:10

Personnel

Jon Oliva – lead vocals, keyboards
Chris Caffery - lead & rhythm guitars, backing vocals
Johnny Lee Middleton – bass guitar, backing vocals
Jeff Plate – drums, backing vocals

Additional musicians

Bob Kinkel - additional keyboards & backing vocals
Al Pitrelli - additional lead guitars (featured on tracks "Stay With Me A While", "Commissar", "Morphine Child" & "The Rumor")
John West - backing vocalist

Further Credits

Produced by Paul O'Neill
Co-produced by Jon Oliva
Engineered & Mixed by Dave Wittman
Assistant engineer: Darren Rapp, Ed Osbeck
Additional engineering: Bob Kinkel
Recorded and mixed at Soundtracks Studios
Overdubs at Studio 900, New York City
Mastered at the Master Cutting Room by Kevin Hodge
Studio managers: Jeff Thompson, Chris Rich, Ken Thornhill
Cover art: Edgar Jerins
Design: Deborah Lauren

   By the end of 1999, Savatage was beginning to appear as something of an anachronism.  While the band struggled to remain profitable and find mainstream recognition, their offshoot side-project Trans-Siberian Orchestra was seeling millions of records in the United States alone.  The band's record label, and more then a few of their fans, wondered why Jon Oliva and company would choose to remain active as Savatage when TSO sounded so similar and was so much more successful.  In fact, the only factors that kept Savatage going after The Wake of Magellan were the band's brighter prospects overseas as well as the relative stability of their current lineup.  Nevertheless, as TSO became ever more popular, it was proving increasingly difficult to allocate the appropriate amount of time and energy to activities as Savatage.   By the time the band even started working on their twelfth studio release, it had already been over two years since the initial release of their last album, and at the earliest, the next record would be out on the shelves by spring of 2000.  In fact, the recording process of what would become Poets and Madmen would prove to be even more of an ordeal then had been originally anticipated.  The record would not see the light of day until April of 2001, and owing to personal issues among some of the band members, the Savatage that would return to the stage that year was a rather different beast then the band that had last performed in Europe in the summer of 1999.  The story of Poets and Madmen would be one of great trauma that would fatally undermine the precarious stability Savatage had been able to attain between 1995 and 2000, so much so that the band would be put on hiatus for 13 years as Jon Oliva, exhausted and disillusioned, would form a new band that would have to serve as an ersatz Savatage in the place of the original.

   After The Wake of Magellan, Paul O'Neill and the members of Savatage first turned their attention to the making of a second TSO album.  Initially, Paul had intended the new record to be a non-Christmas affair.  However, possibily owing to record label pressures to capitalize on the success of the first album, the second TSO offering would be yet another Christmas record, released on the cusp of the holiday season in 1998.  Perhaps fearful of TSO becoming pigeon-holed into the role of a Christmastime only act, the band immediately commenced recording the next TSO record, their first non-holiday album, a rock opera called Beethoven's Last Night, which was eventually released in March of 2000.  The album, which wove a story about the great composer attempting to weasel out of making a deal with the devil on his deathbed, was noticeably darker and heavier then previous TSO records, and it is perhaps for this reason that the record has sold the least of all the TSO albums (as of 2015).  Nevertheless, the album did go gold in America, despite the lack of a supporting tour, proving that even a non-holiday TSO could still sell more records then Savatage. 

   Even more portentous of the future was the success of the first TSO Christmas tour in 1999.  Paul had previously resisted taking the group out on the road, but in 1999 he finally caved.  The results were surprising.  Without having performed any previous shows, the band was instantly able to sell out large theaters, playing to hundreds of thousands across the country.  Jon Oliva would later note bitterly how TSO was able to play before more people on their first tour then Savatage had in their entire career.  With TSO now becoming a touring entity as well as branching out beyond the Christmas season, Savatage was starting to appear redundant.

   In the midst of this flurry of TSO activity, Jon Oliva and Chris Caffery had begun writing for what would ultimately become Poets and Madmen.  The work had initially started as the band was wrapping up the recording of Beethoven's Last Night in mid-1999.  Whereas Jon had written the previous two Savatage records on piano with Paul, the creative process for the new album was quite different.  Much as the band had operated back in the old days, Jon and Chris began by writing on two guitars and bouncing ideas back and forth until they had come up with songs worthy of being demoed and presented to Paul.  In all, Jon would produce nearly 30 songs during the sessions for Poets and Madmen, yet less then half of that number would actually be considered for the final product.  A defining feature of the music for the new album would be the juxtaposing of the lighter and heavier elements of the band's sound.  By 1999, Savatage had become aware of a certain duality in their music, and Jon had arranged the music on the new album to take advantage of this distinctive element of Savatage.  Poets and Madmen was also intended to be the first record to fully utilize the vocal prowess of both Jon Oliva and Zak Stevens.  The two singers would split the lead vocal work evenly, with some of the songs including vocal trades between the two frontmen.  Vocally, Poets and Madmen would be the most ambitious album Savatage to date.

   Yet in many other respects, the record would be far more stripped down and simplified compared to it's immediate predecessors.  The music on the whole was more raw and aggressive then anything Savatage had done in quite a while, with few of the band's signature ballads appearing in the tracklist.  While the album would feature orchestration, it would be nowhere near as extensive then what had been used on the previous two releases.  Perhaps most striking of all, Poets and Madmen would feature no instrumental tracks.  While Chris Caffery had initially intended for the album to feature some instrumentals, Jon Oliva would reject this, feeling that Savatage needed to move away from a sound that had become very closely associated with TSO.  The record was also planned to be a regular album, rather then a rock opera, as Jon felt that Paul's epic concepts had also become a TSO signature.  However, when the early demos of the album were presented to Paul, the band's longtime producer and lyricist would ultimately manage to weave a story into the record, a fact that would later prove to be of much annoyance to Jon.  Even so, the story for Poets and Madmen, about a group of teens loosely based off the band members who break into an abandoned asylum, was still far less lofty then that of the previous two albums. Poets and Madmen was thus intended to be something of a compromise between the two distinct sides of Savatage; an all-out metal opera featuring twin lead vocals.  It was perhaps hoped that this compromise of the band's two styles would help to heal the rift that had formed between the band's older and younger fans, and would solidify Savatage's commercial position.

   However, as the making of the record took place, changes were occurring within the Savatage family that was making the stability of the current lineup untenable.  The first member to leave would be guitarist Al Pitrelli.  Perceived by many to be more of a hired gun then a true band member, the lengthy break between albums had compelled Al to seek a source of income elsewhere, and when an opportunity to join Megadeth presented itself, Pitrelli would leave Savatage for a new band, although he would record a few solos for the album.  The departure of the former Asia/ Alice Cooper/ Dee Snider's Widowmaker axeman had long since been anticipated by Jon Oliva, and had little effect on the making of the new record.

   On the other hand, the sudden departure of Zak Stevens would take the band and their fans completely by surprise.  Having fronted Savatage for nearly a decade, Zak had long since become a vital component of the Savatage sound.  However, while a lack of touring may have motivated Pitrelli to leave Savatage, Zak's exit from the band was created by the prospect of more touring.  After having just bought a new house and had his first child, Zak was reluctant to leave his family for the better part of the year to support the new record.  Unfortunately, he did not inform Jon Oliva of his decision to leave until very late in the recording process, a state of affairs that would place Savatage in an impossible position.  The entire album had been built around the dual lead vocals of Jon and Zak, and now it appeared that one of the singers would soon be leaving the band.  Zak did indeed offer to sing on the record if the band was willing to push back the release a further six months, but with the album having already been postponed for an entire year, Jon was reluctant to delay the record even futher.  Jon also rejected a proposal by Zak that would have seen both singers perform on the album even if he was unable to tour.

   Thus at the last minute, radical changes had to be made to Poets and Madmen.  John West of Royal Hunt was offered the gig as Zak's replacement, but he declined.  West was nevertheless brought in to sing back-up on the album while Jon Oliva would sing all of the lead vocals himself.  As a result of this decision, some of the songs on the record were rearranged to better suit Jon's voice, while at least one song, the album's title track, was left off the record, as it was felt the song did not work without both Jon and Zak singing.  Conversely, the track “Stay With Me Awhile”, which was not originally intended to appear in the tracklist, was added to the record as the opening number.  These last minute changes would only serve to cloud Jon Oliva's opinion of the record.  While he would later state that he better enjoyed the final tracklisting, Jon would always remain somewhat disappointed in the overall sound of the album, as most of the songs had originally been written for two vocalists rather then just one.  For Jon Oliva, Poets and Madmen would forever exist in the shadow of what it was originally envisioned to be, and his disappointment in the final product would be one of several factors that would lead him to place Savatage on the shelf for over a decade.

   Taking the album as it is, Poets and Madmen is certainly a departure from what had come before.  Despite still ostensibly being a rock opera, the lyrics are far less narrative then those of the previous two records.  The story of the album therefore often falls to the wayside, and is easily forgotten when listening to the music.  Stylistically, the album is in many way a continuation of the shift back toward a heavier, more riff-driven sound that had begun in earnest on The Wake of Magellan. Poets and Madmen is by far the heaviest thing made by Savatage at least since Hall of the Mountain King, and is one of the heaviest albums of the band's entire career.  The overall more metal feel of the album is further buttressed by Jon Oliva's vocals.  Having to sing both his own parts, as well as those written originally for Zak, Jon's performance on Poets and Madmen is one of his most varied on record, and remains one of the best examples of the versatility of the Mountain King's unique voice.

   However, despite all the apparent metal-ness of Poets and Madmen, the record is still very much a product of late-era Savatage, and it is a far cry from the wild, untamed style of Sirens and Dungeons.  This is most apparent in the writing and arrangements of many of the tracks.  Even with all the crunchy riffs Caffery brings to bear, the guitars on the record are used primarily to support the vocal melodies, which are the true basis of many compositions on the album.  The overall heaviness of the record is further offset by the constant alternation between softer and louder parts featured on many of the tracks.  While Poets and Madmen is definitely more of a metal record then it's predecessors, the constant juxtaposing of heavier and lighter song sections breaks up the overall metal sound of the album.  Unlike a true balls-to-the-wall metal record in the vein of, say, Judas Priest's Painkiller, the style of Poets and Madmen is constantly in flux, giving the album more of a Jekyll-and-Hyde sort of nature, rather then that of a singular, monolithic metal beast.

   Unlike the two previous records, Poets and Madmen forgoes the opening combo of an instrumental followed by a narrative introduction and leads off with a full length song.  “Stay With Me Awhile” was added to the album mere weeks before the release date, which is surprising considering how perfectly the song sets the tone of the record.  A gently menacing piano led opening immediately dispenses any preconceived notions one may have come to expect from a Savatage album by this point in their careers.  “Stay With Me Awhile” jumps between darkly soft verses and a hard hitting chorus, setting up the overall style of the album.  Jon Oliva's vocals never sounded more varied then on this album.  His first full Savatage record since Streets, Jon's voice alternates with the music between very Alice Cooper-esque lower register parts and a gritter approach to the more metal sections.  Right off the bat, “Stay With Me Awhile” thus encapsulates perfectly the musical duality the forms the basis of many songs on Poets and Madmen, providing the first taste of the album's defining features.

   In one of the band's most flawless one-two punches, the second track picks up the pace.  “There in the Silence” opens with some slick keyboards that add a new element to the Savatage sound while Jon introduces us to the lyrical concepts of the record.  Chris Caffery give the song a good deal of chunk, his riffs solid and crunchy.  While not the heaviest track on the album, “There in the Silence” certainly helps to bring back a metal metal element that had long since been on the decline in Savatage throughout the 90's.  By contrast, the third track, “Commissar” starts of rather quiet before exploding into a vocal duel between Jon Oliva and thickly layered choral vocals led primarily by John West.  Had Zak Stevens remained in the band, “Commissar” doubtlessly would have been one of the songs to prominently feature vocal trades between himself and Jon Oliva.  As it is, the track is still quite impressive.  The tempo kicks into overdrive about two minutes in, some galloping riffage serving to add some long missed metal energy to the music of Savatage.  The soloing on this track is particularly excellent, being one of the few tracks on the record to feature solos from both Caffery and Pitrelli, their twin guitar work turning the later sections of the song into one of Savatage's finest shredfests.  “Commissar” was chosen as the lead single from the record, and was also placed as the opening song in the setlists for the subsequent tour.  Hard-hitting but still possessing an epic majesty, “Commissar” is easily one of the more stand-out tracks on the record, although it's commercial appeal as a single is questionable.

[The Dark Master]

Part 12 – Result and cause... (cont.)


   The next track starts off with a very bass heavy intro as Jon Oliva brings us some of his very best softer vocal work.  For a number of reasons, including the song title and the overall sound of the track, “I Seek Power” is highly reminiscent of something from Alic Cooper's near contemporary release, Brutal Planet.  Even so, the song is unmistakably a Savatage track, nowhere moreso in the very distinctive ride-out that serves as the the ending.  Poets and Madmen has often been called Chris Caffery's Savatage album given the large amount songwriting credits he has on the record.  While the exact extent of his creative contributions are debatable (Jon and Paul were undoubtedly the masterminds of the album, and Caffery would later imply in interviews that many of his ideas for the record were shot down), Criss Oliva's heir apparent makes his presence felt on this album as never before.  From the deliciously crunchy riffs to the high-octane solos, Caffery imbues Poets and Madmen with the signature mark of his guitar work that sets it apart from any other Savatage record.  This is even more apparent on the following track, “Drive”.  The shortest and fastest song on the album, “Drive” extensively features Caffery's first class riffs and licks.  This brief track was also intended to feature overlapping vocals from both Jon and Zak, but ultimately only features Jon on the leads.  Live versions of this song with Jon singing in tandem along side Zak's on tour replacement, Damond Jiniya, show what the song, and perhaps much of the album, would have sounded like in it's intended form.

   The sixth track on the album is undoubtedly the centerpiece of the record.  Originally titled “Cantations”, the song that was ultimately named “Morphine Child” has long since gone on to become arguably the signature song from the record.  Clocking in at just over ten minutes, this plodding epic of a track steps back from the more metal approach of the record to indulge in extensive rock opera vocal arrangements.  The end result of the experimentation in multiple vocal parts that had begun with “Chance” seven years earlier reaches it's grand conclusion on “Morphine Child”.  Jon Oliva once again trades vocals with West's backing choir in another track that was originally intended to extensively feature Zak on leads.  The entire song builds up to a regal counterpoint vocal section and a bombastic finale that easily makes this once of the most impressive tracks in the Savatage catalog.  Jon and Paul would later state that the song featured no less then 40 vocal tracks in the studio, and while the song is certainly one of the strongest in the Savatage discography, in many ways “Morphine Child” represented the limitations of just how far the band could take vocal cannons with a lineup of only six members.  A performance of the song with TSO would be one of the highlights of the 2015 reunion concert at Wacken, perhaps offering the most comprehensive view of just how big Jon and Paul's  musical ambitions had become by the time they recorded Poets and Madmen, and how inadequate Savatage was to execute such a grandiose vision.

   The next track, “The Rumor”, drew the ire of many long time Savatage fans upon the album's release for the overtly religious nature of it's lyrics.  Featuring the most dramatic musical juxtaposing on the album between an acoustic verse and a blisteringly heavy groove-metal chorus, “The Rumor” is definitely one of the more lyrically spiritual songs Savatage have ever written, which perhaps put off many fans.  Even so, considering the lyrical territory Jon Oliva would later explore with Jon Oliva's Pain, as well as the fact that Savatage had never shied away from such religious topics in their past, one is left to wonder precisely what was so wrong with this song.  “The Rumor” is hardly one of the strongest tracks from Poets and Madmen, but the amount of flak thrown it's way seems a bit overwrought all things considered.  The following song created far less of a fuss.  Dealing with alcoholism, “Man in the Mirror” is in many ways a call back to such tracks as “Scraggy's Tomb” and “Handful of Rain”.  Also noteworthy is that, moreso then any other song on the album, “Man in the Mirror” most prominently uses riffs and melodies left over from Oliva and Caffery's Doctor Butcher side project.  The first half of the song switches back and forth between a bass-driven acoustic verse and a much heavier rapid-fire chorus, while the lengthy second half of the track is replete with heavy riffage and deft soloing courtesy of Caffery, all underlain by Middleton's bass and Jon's piano.
   
   The album's ninth song, “Surrender”, has long since gone on to become one of Jon Oliva's favorites from Poets and Madmen, and has been played with Jon Oliva's Pain more then any other song from the record.  This is unsurprising, since out of all the songs from Poets and Madmen, “Surrender” best foreshadows the musical style of JOP.  Piano driven and yet still quite heavy, with big Queen-esque vocals in the chorus, the lyrics interweave lunatic madness with spiritual questions, a distinctive feature of the songs Jon would later pen with JOP.  Perhaps the most memorable part of the song is the lengthy coda, a slow, inexorable beat underlying some rapid-fire poetry from Jon.  Given the lyrical similarities between Poets and Madmen and many of the works of JOP, the fact that all the lyrics on the twelfth Savatage album were written by Paul is all the more surprising, leaving one to wonder about the influence Paul and Jon may have exerted over each other while writing songs together. 

   “Surrender” is followed by “Awaken”, a short guitar and bass driven groovy piece featuring some of Jon's most aggressive vocal work on the album.  An enjoyable little song, “Awaken” is one of the less memorable tracks off Poets and Madmen.  The album's grand finale is the touching ballad, “Back to a Reason”.  The only ballad on an otherwise very metal album, “Back to a Reason” showcases some of Jon's Beatles influences rather prominently in the main verse and chorus sections while the song's lush middle features some very distinctively Queen-esque epic vocal work.  Curiously, a track entitled “Back to a Reason, pt. 2” would appear on the fourth TSO album, featuring the same main verse/chorus section but with an entirely different (and far less dynamic) middle portion.  An emotional piece, “Back to a Reason” perhaps best embodies the state of Savatage at the dawn of the 21st century, a band caught at a crossroads in their careers, and in search of a new identity and meaning,

   No record in the Savatage canon is more controversial then Poets and Madmen.  As a compromise between the two distinct sides of the band, the album was intended to appeal to everyone but ultimately satisfied only a few.  The band's younger fans were disappointed by the departure of Zak and were taken aback by the somewhat more straight forward metal sound of the record.  By contrast, the older Savatage faithful had gotten their hopes up when it was announced that the new album would not be a rock opera, and had become further excited when it was revealed that Jon Oliva would sing all the vocal leads on the album.  Yet any hopes that the record would signify a return to the power metal glory of Hall of the Mountain King were swiftly dashed, and the more tenured among the Savatage fanbase finally realized that there was little chance that Savatage would ever completely turn back the clock on their musical evolution. 

   In truth, however, both sides missed the point of the record entirely.  Even taking into consideration the changes that were made between the album's conception and the final product, Poets and Madmen was never intended to be be a continuation of the grandiose rock opera style of the two previous records, nor was it intended to be a complete return to the more aggressive sound Savatage had explored in the 80's.  From the beginning, the whole point of the album was to create a hybrid of the two eras of Savatage, and find some sort of common ground for both the band and their fans.  This goal was imperfectly attained due to the loss of Zak Stevens, but it was attained nevertheless.  The constant juxtaposing of lighter and heavier music and the blending of the band's metal and operatic elements was ever present on Poets and Madmen, and this unique combination of elements would have set the stage for a third period of Savatage had the band continued.  Unfortunately, due to the expectations of their fans (for which, admittedly, the band had set themselves up), Poets and Madmen was a disappointment to just about everyone, including the band themselves.  Only a handful recognized the true brilliance of the album, and were left by subsequent events to mourn what might have been.

   The process of touring to support Poets and Madmen was as much of an ordeal as the making of the album itself.  With John West electing to reamin in Royal Hunt, Damond Jiniya from the far more obscure act Diet of Worms was brought on as Zak's replacement.  Despite some minor grousing over the new singer's more “goth” appearance, Jiniya's vocal talents proved ample enough to win over most fans for the duration of the tour.  Fulfilling the second guitar position proved to be a bit more complicated.  The band initially toured for nearly a year with guitarist Jack Frost, who was subsequently ousted in early 2002 when Al Pitrelli opted to rejoin Savatage after Megadeth broke up.  However, Pitrelli was unable to tour with Savatage during the summer of that year, so the band was joined by Jeff Waters from Annihilator for the remainder of the live commitments.  In the midst of these lineup changes, the band was faced with the unfortunate reality of being out on tour, and away from their families, during the September 11th attacks, an experience that Jon Oliva later described as something of a breaking point for the band.

   Savatage had cheated death twice in the past, first in the wake of the critical failure of Fight for the Rock, and second in the aftermath of Criss Oliva's passing, but by 2002 the problems the band faced appeared insurmountable.  The band's position in America had dwindled to insignificance while their popularity overseas had taken a hit due to the vast changes that had occurred during the Poets and Madmen era, and the stability the band had achieved between 1995 and 2000 lay in tatters.  Even worse, the delicate balancing act the band had maintained between TSO and Savatage had become untenable.  As early as 1996 Savatage had been taking a back seat to its more successful side-project, and in the wake of all the issues that confronted the band by 2002, continuing on as Savatage probably seemed to not be worth the effort.

   But perhaps what finally broke the back of Savatage was doubts that had been mounting in the mind of Jon Oliva over the course of the past decade.  Ever since “Christmas Eve/ Sarajevo (12/24)” had become a smash hit as TSO while only receiving middling success as Savatage, Jon had come to the believe that the biggest barrier to success as Savatage was the name Savatage itself.  This idea that Savatage was unmarketable was compounded by growing feelings that Savatage had never really been Savatage since Criss had died, and that the band that had followed from Edge of Thorns onward had merely been a precursor to TSO.  The attempt to buck this trend with Poets and Madmen had provided disappointing results, and with Paul O'Neill exerting so much creative influence over Savatage as well as TSO, Jon Oliva probably felt that there was no point to continuing on with Savatage if it was just going to be a less profitable incarnation of TSO anyways.  The collapse of Savatage's last complete stable lineup in 2000 provided the final straw.  With Savatage devolving into a revolving door of musicians for the second time in less then a decade, Jon Oliva probably lost whatever remaining interest he had in maintaining Savatage as a unit.  The only constant in Savatage was him alone.  If Jon Oliva was indeed Savatage, and if the name Savatage was truly unmarketable, then what point was there in continuing with the charade that Jon Oliva needed the name Savatage to release his music?

   With so much unused material left over from the Poets and Madmen sessions, Jon was able to write the follow-up in short order.  However, as the members of Savatage were busy with TSO, the songs written for the next album were left to wait in limbo until Jon finally decided to strike out on his own.  Jon had helped Zak Stevens form a new band, Circle II Circle, in 2003, and the success Zak was able to achieve under a new name doubtlessly inspired Jon to try to form a new band of his own.  When the members of Circle II Circle returned to Jon after they had a falling out with Zak, Jon found himself with a fresh new band already made and a new full album ready to record.  All he needed was a new name.  At first he opted to call his new project Jon Oliva's 'Tage Mahal (after his brother's unmade solo project) and his new album Pain.  However, the presence of blues musician Taj Mahal made this impossible, so Jon opted to reverse the titles and call his new band Jon Oliva's Pain and the album 'Tage Mahal. 

   JOP played their first gig in October of 2003 on the tenth anniversary of Criss Oliva's death, and were joined on stage by a one time only lineup of Caffery, Middleton, Wacholz and Stevens.  The concert, intended as a tribute to the memory of Criss, was also in many ways an unintentional tribute to the memory of Savatage.  As JOP opened the show and the members of Savatage closed it, an era had truly ended.  For the moment, Jon Oliva's past with Savatage had reached a conclusion, while a brave new future with his new band was just beginning...

[wolfking]

I fucking love this album.  It's absolutely brilliant.

[jjrock88]

I've had two different versions of this album.  The first had Shotgun Innocence as a bonus track and the most recent has some acoustic tracks at the end.

Awesome album!!

[wolfking]

I didn't know Jeff Waters toured with them for a bit.

I remember seeing live vids of that Jiniya guy and he was pretty good.

[Lowdz]

I might be a dissenting voice here but I was underwhelmed by this album at the time and I wasn't too upset when they called it a day as it had been a case of dwindling returns for me for several years.

I don't remember much about the album other than not liking CommisR and I Seek Power, and nothing really stood out.
I got the special edition in the box with a poster and a photo supposed to be of the girl in the story in a bikini.

I listened to it again at the start of this discog thread and it was still pretty meh..

I did really enjoy the TSO beethovens Last Night album, though with each TSO albums there are the Broadway voices I can't stand.

[wolfking]

When I first heard it I wasn't too sure.  I can't describe it but it sounded very raw, harsh and maybe blunt.  Repeated listens though and it grew into an absolute monster.

[Cyclopssss]

Love this one as well. I for one find the lack of ballady songs refreshing.

[abydos]

P&M to me is in their top 3 albums, easily. I"ve loved it ever since it came out- was never a huge fan of the albums with Zak (although I love his voice).  To me it was always the perfect mixture of old/new Savatage - the best of both worlds.

[T-ski]

I listened to this album maybe just a handful of times and shelved it.  The only song I remember being on it was "Shotgun Innocence", and that was a bonus track.

Maybe I'll try it again.

[Art]

Wow, i had no idea that John West was called to be a singer for Savatage. That would be awesome. It´s a shame that he turned it down. I saw them on the Poets and Madmen tour, and it was a nice show, i remember being very impressed with Damond´s live performance, he has a great voice. It was the first leg of the tour, i imagine, because it was Jack Frost playing the second guitar. I like the album, and as i recall they played a lot of it live. And after the show i got to meet most of the band in a bar near the venue (actually i dont think it was after the show..maybe it was the day after) and they were all nice guys. Me and some friends got to talk to Jon Oliva a lot, since he was the only one without a crowd of girls around him , and he was extremely nice, chatting about a lot of non-music stuff (gambling, drinks, brazilian girls etc  ). I think he was happy to find someone who (kind of) spoke english.

[wolfking]

This album was in my top 50.

[James Mypetgiress]

I have to say, one of my favourite albums (possibly) of all time. There isn't a song I don't like on it.

[The Dark Master]

So if anyone was wondering where I have been for the past week or so, I got appendicitis the weekend after Thanksgiving and had to be hospitalized.  I got out Monday and have gradually been getting better, but still feel rather crappy.  I will post more of my thought on Poets and Madmen when I feel up to it.

[Podaar]

Glad to hear you're on the mend, DM. Take care and we'll look forward to your post!

[Prog Snob]

I might be a dissenting voice here but I was underwhelmed by this album at the time and I wasn't too upset when they called it a day as it had been a case of dwindling returns for me for several years.

I don't remember much about the album other than not liking CommisR and I Seek Power, and nothing really stood out.
I got the special edition in the box with a poster and a photo supposed to be of the girl in the story in a bikini.

I listened to it again at the start of this discog thread and it was still pretty meh..

I did really enjoy the TSO beethovens Last Night album, though with each TSO albums there are the Broadway voices I can't stand.

I was also disappointed by P & M. I listened to it maybe three or four times when it came out and haven't listened to it since.

[James Mypetgiress]

I might be a dissenting voice here but I was underwhelmed by this album at the time and I wasn't too upset when they called it a day as it had been a case of dwindling returns for me for several years.

I don't remember much about the album other than not liking CommisR and I Seek Power, and nothing really stood out.
I got the special edition in the box with a poster and a photo supposed to be of the girl in the story in a bikini.

I listened to it again at the start of this discog thread and it was still pretty meh..

I did really enjoy the TSO beethovens Last Night album, though with each TSO albums there are the Broadway voices I can't stand.

I was also disappointed by P & M. I listened to it maybe three or four times when it came out and haven't listened to it since.

How are you guys disappointed by it? IMHO it's one of the best metal albums out there... that being said I haven't listened to much other Savatage stuff...

[jjrock88]

So if anyone was wondering where I have been for the past week or so, I got appendicitis the weekend after Thanksgiving and had to be hospitalized.  I got out Monday and have gradually been getting better, but still feel rather crappy.  I will post more of my thought on Poets and Madmen when I feel up to it.

Hope you feel better soon dude!

[wolfking]

So if anyone was wondering where I have been for the past week or so, I got appendicitis the weekend after Thanksgiving and had to be hospitalized.  I got out Monday and have gradually been getting better, but still feel rather crappy.  I will post more of my thought on Poets and Madmen when I feel up to it.

Damn bro, that sucks, rest up and feel better.

[Cyclopssss]

Get well, bro.

[Lowdz]

Get well soon. This thread will wait 

[bl5150]

Get well soon.

Mentally yours,

Brent 

[Prog Snob]

I might be a dissenting voice here but I was underwhelmed by this album at the time and I wasn't too upset when they called it a day as it had been a case of dwindling returns for me for several years.

I don't remember much about the album other than not liking CommisR and I Seek Power, and nothing really stood out.
I got the special edition in the box with a poster and a photo supposed to be of the girl in the story in a bikini.

I listened to it again at the start of this discog thread and it was still pretty meh..

I did really enjoy the TSO beethovens Last Night album, though with each TSO albums there are the Broadway voices I can't stand.

I was also disappointed by P & M. I listened to it maybe three or four times when it came out and haven't listened to it since.

How are you guys disappointed by it? IMHO it's one of the best metal albums out there... that being said I haven't listened to much other Savatage stuff...

That last comment of yours is the key here. To me, and many others, it pales in comparison to most of their CDs. Check out The Wake of Magellan, Gutter Ballet, Streets, Edge of Thorns, Handful of Rain, etc.

[James Mypetgiress]

I might be a dissenting voice here but I was underwhelmed by this album at the time and I wasn't too upset when they called it a day as it had been a case of dwindling returns for me for several years.

I don't remember much about the album other than not liking CommisR and I Seek Power, and nothing really stood out.
I got the special edition in the box with a poster and a photo supposed to be of the girl in the story in a bikini.

I listened to it again at the start of this discog thread and it was still pretty meh..

I did really enjoy the TSO beethovens Last Night album, though with each TSO albums there are the Broadway voices I can't stand.

I was also disappointed by P & M. I listened to it maybe three or four times when it came out and haven't listened to it since.

How are you guys disappointed by it? IMHO it's one of the best metal albums out there... that being said I haven't listened to much other Savatage stuff...

That last comment of yours is the key here. To me, and many others, it pales in comparison to most of their CDs. Check out The Wake of Magellan, Gutter Ballet, Streets, Edge of Thorns, Handful of Rain, etc.

I will listen to all of the above this weekend.

[Kwyjibo]

I fucking love this album.  It's absolutely brilliant.

Couldn't have said it better. Maybe it helped that I didn't know the circumstances when the album came out. i just enjoyed it for what it was, a very good metal record and one of Savatage's best.

Stay With Me Awhile, There In The Silence, Commissar, Drive, the anthemic Morphine Child and the closer Back To A Reason are just Savatage at it's best. If only they had continued making records like this.

[wolfking]

I fucking love this album.  It's absolutely brilliant.

Couldn't have said it better. Maybe it helped that I didn't know the circumstances when the album came out. i just enjoyed it for what it was, a very good metal record and one of Savatage's best.

Stay With Me Awhile, There In The Silence, Commissar, Drive, the anthemic Morphine Child and the closer Back To A Reason are just Savatage at it's best. If only they had continued making records like this.

That thought is like a wet dream.

[The Dark Master]

Next week I think I am going to post my conclusions on Savatage's career.  I realize that it has been a month and a half, but even though I covered every album, I feel a bit odd just leaving this thread without giving it a proper ending.  I will give my thoughts on Savatage's career as a whole and why they never achieved their big break, TSO, JOP, and the legacy of the band.  I'm still not certain exactly what the future holds in store for the band, but given Jon's recent comments, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Savatage from this point forward will only exist as a part of TSO.  So this seems as good a time as any to finish up this thread.

[jjrock88]

That will be a good read!

[Hanz Gruber]

Poets and Madmen write-up coming today.  I'm hoping to have it done by the afternoon as I have to work this evening.  In the event that I cannot finish it before I go to work, then I will post it later tonight before I go to sleep.

I really liked Poets and Madmen.  I was crushed when Zak left the band and didn't think I would like the album but picked it up anyway.  Still prefer Dead Winter Dead and the The Wake of Magellan but this album was pretty killer.

[jingle.boy]

That will be a good read!

Indeedy.

[Calvin6s]

So if anyone was wondering where I have been for the past week or so, I got appendicitis the weekend after Thanksgiving and had to be hospitalized. 

Sorry to hear that.  What stage was it at and how did everything go medically?

[The Dark Master]

So if anyone was wondering where I have been for the past week or so, I got appendicitis the weekend after Thanksgiving and had to be hospitalized. 

Sorry to hear that.  What stage was it at and how did everything go medically?

Fortunately, despite waiting two days before going to the hospital, it had not yet burst, largely thanks to my wife who suspected my pains were from appendicitis and had me eat a lot of bananas (apparently, the potassium helped to prevent the appendix from exploding; my surgeon commented after the operation that had I not had the bananas, by appendix would have burst before I made it to the ER).  The recovery went well, although it was slow.  The doctor said a complete recovery from appendicitis takes on average at least 4 to 6 weeks, and mine certainly lasted the full six weeks!  I was only bedridden for the first week, so I was able to get back to work pretty quick, but all of December and the first half of January was pretty rough.

On an partially related note, I haven't written my conclusion to the thread yet because, in addition to the above medical issues, I haven't been listening to a lot of Savatage in the past few weeks (Symphony X and, to a lesser extent, the new DT album are taking up much of my time.)  Some day soon though I intend to make a point to have a day of Savatage to get me in the mood to look over their discography and history as a whole so I can gather my thoughts on the band's career and finally bring this thread to a suitable ending.

[wolfking]

Damn, keep getting better man.