Author Topic: Serious question about Mangini's drumming (maybe drummers can chime in?)  (Read 2766 times)

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Online goo-goo

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Mangini just posted this video (which is awesome btw).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEqcL-eaHGk&feature=youtu.be

This made me think and ask the following question:
Would having the cymbals and cannon toms so high reduce his speed to hit? Not trying to criticize his playing or anything. Just wondering if lowering the upper hardware would increase speed and reduce the energy in his playing...In other words, could lowering the hardware be beneficial?

And just to clarify, I'm not trying to offend Mangini or anything like that...I'm not a drummer and do not play drums at all. This question just comes from a curious mind (and from an engineering point of view, since E=mgh).

Thanks

Offline rumborak

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It's more about reach, which inevitably would slow you down. But i think he compensates through redundancy (i.e. many similar pieces of equipment spread over the kit).

I have a different question though: What's wrong with playing drums with your fingers? That's what the video seems to be about. It strikes me as weird to try to optimize away the use of the most expressive part of your body.
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Offline lucasembarbosa

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As rumborak said, it's all about the reach - and the best positioning of the kit pieces so the drummer gets comfortable to hit everything around...

Online hefdaddy42

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Would having the cymbals and cannon toms so high reduce his speed to hit?
If that were true, he would be even more of a beast if they were lower.  He's already one of the fastest drummers in the world.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Kotowboy

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I'd love a super slow mo of him going between regular toms and octobans at full speed.

That would be awesome as I 've no idea how he does that.

Offline TheSilentHam

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Speed doesn't seem to be a problem for him. It has got to create more movement = more energy required (more pasta).  If he likes it that way, then more power to him.  This is just an assumption because I've got no backing evidence from interviews, but I always thought the high equipment 1) Is for showmanship because it looks cool reaching up for the high toms and cymbals 2) It takes equipment that is usually around face level (on a large kit) and brings it up above his head so you can see him better.  I really never got the opinion that he is hiding behind this large kit.  I really feel like you can see all his facial expressions and also see more of what he is playing than with traditional large kit designs.

Offline rumborak

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I don't think anybody says he's hiding behind the kit. People are saying he's hidden behind the kit.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Mangini is obviously aware of Moeller technique but I can imagine he's extrapolated and built upon it to the nth degree.

Offline erwinrafael

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It's more about reach, which inevitably would slow you down. But i think he compensates through redundancy (i.e. many similar pieces of equipment spread over the kit).

I have a different question though: What's wrong with playing drums with your fingers? That's what the video seems to be about. It strikes me as weird to try to optimize away the use of the most expressive part of your body.

He is advocating a different technique that, based on his studies, would yield less injuries and more power, while still generating speen. He has been talking about this for several years now, about the importance of using the big muscles instead of the small muscles to generate speed.

Here is a short clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN3n-zmvJJA

By setting world records on drum speed, and by retaining his drum speed even in his 50s, I think he is proving that his case is legit.

This made me think and ask the following question:
Would having the cymbals and cannon toms so high reduce his speed to hit? Not trying to criticize his playing or anything. Just wondering if lowering the upper hardware would increase speed and reduce the energy in his playing...In other words, could lowering the hardware be beneficial?

And just to clarify, I'm not trying to offend Mangini or anything like that...I'm not a drummer and do not play drums at all. This question just comes from a curious mind (and from an engineering point of view, since E=mgh).

Mike's cymbals arrangement is based on pitch, where they go R - L -R - L -R - L - R - L from the center going down the scale. As to why they  seem so high, I think Mangini prioritizes spacing more, because having cymbals close to each other muddle the orchestration.

For the octobans, it's a combo of many things, practical, musical and aesthetic. From Mike himself:

"Firstly they’re in the middle for the same reason as my signature snares because I need to access them with either hand. I can’t have them stuck way to the left because sometimes my other hand is tied up. I just need them in the center for access. Another reason, which would make the most sense and be the most simple for anybody to understand even if they’re not a drummer, is there’s no other place to put them. Finally, they look like exhaust pipes up there. It’s just a good, fun look. I think that’s a great way to conclude the whole basis of my setup beyond the musical purpose of it. Me being who and what I’m making myself to be, and being happy to play, and all that. It’s fun. Drums are fun. Setting them up is fun. Hitting stuff is fun. I don’t know a better way for it to hit home than to say “putting those octobans way up high in the middle was a lot of fun”. I think that’s a good explanation."

Offline Darkstarshades

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Speed doesn't seem to be a problem for him. It has got to create more movement = more energy required (more pasta).  If he likes it that way, then more power to him.  This is just an assumption because I've got no backing evidence from interviews, but I always thought the high equipment 1) Is for showmanship because it looks cool reaching up for the high toms and cymbals 2) It takes equipment that is usually around face level (on a large kit) and brings it up above his head so you can see him better.  I really never got the opinion that he is hiding behind this large kit.  I really feel like you can see all his facial expressions and also see more of what he is playing than with traditional large kit designs.

Agree. I think it's an aesthethic matter rather than what's so "better". Besides, I doubt he would place his drums in a place where it would actually slower or ruin his drumming, so if he can give himself the luxury of having more space and being more visible to the audience, then why not doing it? He knows why he does that and it's cool, just as in an interview where he explicity stated "they understand why I put my kit like this" (or something like that).

Btw
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« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 01:01:37 AM by Darkstarshades »
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Offline Cyclopssss

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As an 'ex' drummer, I suppose it would take more strength having to hit upward. I used to tilt my toms at an angle a little, my snare as well. I never could manage the totally 'flat' horizontal position (in drumming, that is).  But he seems to manage quiete well. 
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Offline Kotowboy

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Yeah I could never have my snare and toms totally horizontal like Mike Bordin does. That seems really inefficient to me.

Offline TheSilentHam

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Btw
Your profile picture makes me sad.

Oh lol what is that?  I always worried about it offending SuperDude because I'm not kosher at all, but he liked it  :D

Offline rumborak

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He is advocating a different technique that, based on his studies, would yield less injuries and more power, while still generating speen. He has been talking about this for several years now, about the importance of using the big muscles instead of the small muscles to generate speed.

Here is a short clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN3n-zmvJJA

By setting world records on drum speed, and by retaining his drum speed even in his 50s, I think he is proving that his case is legit.

I strikes me that this particular technique optimizes the specific style MM is going for. If I had to put adjectives to MM's style, it's "hard, fast and consistent". If you are going to try this type of drumming through your fingers, you will injure yourself in the long run, and thus trying to shift as much as possible to the big muscles (MM even engages his whole core) is key.
At the same time, I think someone like Gavin Harrison, who is much more about dynamics, would not benefit from MM's technique.
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Online hefdaddy42

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I would tend to agree with that.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Kotowboy

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Oooh right . I read that as Gavin Harrison would benefit from this technique !

I was thinking - of all the drummers - gavin's control is amazing.

Offline Cyclopssss

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Man, the memories of my early days of playing cramping up from the lower arms down, to not being to hold on to the stick no more because my entire hand cramped up and still having to finish the damn song.... all from wrong technique and ignorance.

I got better over time just because of doing it over and over again, but with a little more training and studying (and just relaxing while playing)  I could have been so much better at the simple basics of drumming. These kinds of tips could have been a big help.
From the ocean comes the notion that the realise lies in rhythm. The rhythm of vision is dancer, and when you dance you´re always on the one. From the looking comes to see, wondrous realise real eyes....

Offline Kotowboy

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Weirdly - Kotow had ONE SONG where my hand would lose all power whilst playing it and i'd have to hold on to the stick with my whole fist by the end of it.

Never got to the bottom of it.


Offline rumborak

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Oooh right . I read that as Gavin Harrison would benefit from this technique !

I was thinking - of all the drummers - gavin's control is amazing.

Given how much of a Gavin fanboi I am, if anything I would say MM could benefit from Gavin's technique :lol
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."