Listened to as one song, which of these do you like best to worst?

[npiazza91]

I love long DT songs and I love making them longer by listening to the ones that share a theme as one song.  Most of these were intended as one song, but I always prefer listening to the 12 Step Suite as one, and Metropolis 1 & 2 as one.  I usually put The Mirror in front of the 12 Step Suite and Lie at the end, but I'm sure I'm one of the only ones that do this.

A Mind Beside Itself
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A Change of Seasons
Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
12 Step Suite
Metropolis 1 & 2

I'd probably say Six Degrees is the best here.  Octavarium is fantastic, but I prefer Six Degrees.  The 12 Step Suite is also amazing.  F- it, all of these songs here are amazing.  Anyone here want to take a stab at ranking these?  I guess I'll go.

8. Illumination Thoery- Clearly the last.  Great song, but it just doesn't compare to the others.

7. A Change of Seasons- I hate putting this so low, but something had to be 7th.

6. The Count of Tuscany- Something had to be 6th.

5.  A Mind Beside Itself- Fantastic, but The Silent Man brings it down slightly.  It feels out of place, in my opinion.

4. Metropolis 1 & 2- At over an hour and a half long, this one's LONG.  Still, it's amazing and tells a near perfect story.  little to complain about here, maybe except for the fact that it's hard to think of as one song.

3. Octavarium- Something had to be 3rd.  Also a bit too short (lol) to be able to compete with Six Degrees and 12 Step Suite.

2. 12 Step Suite- Amazing from beginning to end.  Individually, a few of these songs are lacking a bit, but listened to as one, there is very little (if at all) to complain about here.

1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence- Nothing needs to be said here, in my opinion.

This was extremely difficult to do.  Anyone else want to rise up to the challenge of ordering these?

[Darkstarshades]

Actually some of these you've ranked were written as one song.
I'm amazed that you left out In the Presence of Enemies!
Here's my ranking anyway

1.- Octavarium: Personally, the best song by DT ever, and yeah, this kicks Metropolis's ass for me because it does so many things so good, idk, my fav song by DT ever. Kicked ass, kicks ass, and will kick ass.

2.- Now, for Metropolis. I do count Metropolis Pt2 as a single song split in parts. But I can't count Metropolis Pt 1 as anything else as a prequel and overall different material, even though many things are reprised in Pt2. Beautifully written and filled with energy, as well as having some of the best segments in DT discography.

3.- 6DOIT: This one is one song, longest OFFICIAL song in DT discography. I love it, absolutely love it. Especially the Score version. Emotive, great, deals with a topic that I'm very interested on, awesome. The only letdown is probably the fact that I'm not very fan of the studio version and how short War Inside my Head is, but everywhere else, it's awesome.


4.- In the Presence of Enemies: The ultimate DT Epic. It has been proven, by people who have actually covered it, that this is the single most difficult piece ever written by DT. And if not, at least it's the hardest epic. It puts everything that DT is in a single song, melodic calm parts, epic choruses and extremely agressive and crazy hard solos. Telling an awesome story. My issue with this? Nothing, not really.

5.- Twelve Step Suite: The band did see it as a single song (or work) spread across 5 albums. And it's the longest song NONOFICIALLY in DT discography. A total carnage heavyfest for any metalhead, nearly completely heavy from beggining to end, except for Repentance which does a great job being a letdown but halfway, stops being really calm and slowly returns to the kickassery of TSF. MY GREATEST PROBLEM: The lyrics. Sure, it has some nice parts here and there, especially in TGP, but god, TSF isn't a good song lyrically. "I am responsible, when anyone..." sure, that fits as a promise by an AA member, but not as a line in a metal song.

6.- A Mind Beside Itself: Listen to the LSFNY version. They do an awesome job in placing it all together as one piece and it flows perfectly into The Silent Man. My greatest issue is actually Erotomania, don't get me wrong, love the second half of it, but at the beggining it's actually pretty random and not very attractive for me. Voices is perfect.

7.- Illumination Theory: Love it as well. My issue? Too much time without DT main members, too little lyrics and very long solo section which really doesn't add that much. Ending is beautiful and perfect and the piano passage at the veery end is also awesome. The intro really does an incredible job. Best song on DT12 for me, and has very meaningful lyrics that could be adapted into something bigger.

8.- The Count of Tuscany: Beautiful intro, the best on DT has ever done. Beautiful outro, awesome as well. The issue? The middle part, as well as the verses and chorus, are rather weak and feel not soo inspired as the intro. The enormous silent part is mood-dependant, sometimes I want to hear it, others I just skip it, and that's not something good.

9.- A Change of Season: My least favorite DT epic. Probably because of how much I hate the studio version and just... I don't know, it doesn't feel... cool. I cannot say I love it, but I cannot say I don't like it, it's just... Meh, well, I can't say anything else.

[Zyzzyva17]

I think Dream Theater could record JLB blowing his nose for 30 minutes, and some people would love it on the sole basis of its length.

In all seriousness, long songs are great because of their ability to go through multiple emotional stages, but there's a point where "longer is better" doesn't hold anymore. Octavarium is my favorite DT work regardless of whether it lasted 10 minutes or 24 minutes or 60 minutes. 12 Step Suite is 50+ minutes of some of my less favorite DT music, and its length does nothing to help that.

[erwinrafael]

Best to Worst?

1. Illumination Theory - because of the way I interpreted this song, it all makes perfect sense to me. And it does not have sections that overstay their welcome. I love how the song is a narrative in message but circular in structure.

2. Octavarium - more thematic than a narrative, the buildup is great. The melodies and the playing are great.

3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - the great thing about this song is that it goes through several styles, which fit each specific chapter.

4. A Change of Seasons - a good first attempt at an epic. Some parts could be excrssive. The narrative is great.

5. 12 Step Suite - good concept, but not really good in one listen because the recurring riffs and melodies make listening a chore. For me, better to listen to separately.

6. Metropolis 1 and 2 - these are very good. But when listened as one, all I can think of is that Metropolis Part 1 is really talking about something else, not the murder mystery in Metropolis Part 2.

7. The Count of Tuscany - the song portion is just bad for me. Could have been good because the intro and the ending is amazing.

8. A Mind Beside Itself - I love these songs. I just don't hear it as a suite because there is nothing tying these songs together to warrant it being considered a long song.

[BlobVanDam]

1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - One of if not the best stretch of music DT has ever written. Perfection.

2. Metropolis 1 and 2 - It's not really fair to compare a whole album to individual songs or even the suites here, but still, it's hard to top the near perfect album of SFAM. The only reason I'm bumping this down slightly is because I don't think of Metropolis pts 1 and 2 as a single listening experience, despite the common themes.

3. Octavarium - Easily the best of DT's ~20 minute epics, beautiful buildup and payoff, with a lot to tie it all together.

4. 12 Step Suite - Works better as a whole than you'd think from the individual parts, and includes some of DT's best songs, but after TROAE it does lose steam, with the still very good but overly drawn out Repentance, and the very disappointing rehash of TSF.

5. A Mind Beside Itself - All fantastic songs, but I don't get anything more out of them as a whole. It's 3 songs with some common bits. All great, but no better as a suite than individually.

6. The Count of Tuscany - The entire start and end of this song are among the best things DT has ever written, and I'd argue they haven't come close since, but the weak verses and vocal melodies unfortunately let it down a bit. The song can still give me chills though.

7. A Change of Seasons - Good, but not great, and doesn't reach the heights of their later and better epics.

8. Illumination Theory - Some excellent sections and flashes of brilliance, but it's not very cohesive overall, and has some reused epic cliches, and I find the instrumental sections a chore to get through now.

[Stadler]

In all seriousness, long songs are great because of their ability to go through multiple emotional stages, but there's a point where "longer is better" doesn't hold anymore.

It NEVER holds.   There is absolutely no correlation between "song length" and whatever standard it is that we judge "good songs".   "Yesterday"; two minutes and three seconds of perfection. 

[425]

In all seriousness, long songs are great because of their ability to go through multiple emotional stages, but there's a point where "longer is better" doesn't hold anymore.

It NEVER holds.   There is absolutely no correlation between "song length" and whatever standard it is that we judge "good songs".   "Yesterday"; two minutes and three seconds of perfection.

There's no direct relationship, as in, a song being longer does not automatically make it better. But there are some artists, like Dream Theater, who seemingly work extra hard to make sure their epics have a lot of good musical ideas that build on each other and work together to form a bigger whole. In the case of those artists, I think it's perfectly fair to say that in many cases, their long songs are among their best works.

In response to the topic:

1. Octavarium
2. The Count of Tuscany
3. Illumination Theory
4. Metropolis
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
6. A Change of Seasons
7. In the Presence of Enemies (not sure why this wasn't included in the OP?)
8. Twelve-Step Suite
9. A Mind Beside Itself

[TheCountOfNYC]

1- Octavarium
2- The Count of Tuscany
3- A Change of Seasons
4- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5- Illumination Theory
6- In the Presence of Enemies
7- A Mind Beside Itself
8- The Twelve Step Suite
9- Metropolis Pt 1 and 2

After the first six which are all officially one song and are ranked by how much I like them, I ranked the choices by how much they work as one continuous piece. If you take Metropolis Pt 1 away, I would put SFaM at the top. I prefer the Metropolis' as two separate parts. The Twelve Step Suite would work as one piece with some cross fading but in general I like to hear all five songs together. A Mind Beside Itself already flows together but I can definitely tell that it's three songs. Still, I like listening to the whole suite as one.

[Sacul]

1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - One of if not the best stretch of music DT has ever written. Perfection.

2. Metropolis 1 and 2 - It's not really fair to compare a whole album to individual songs or even the suites here, but still, it's hard to top the near perfect album of SFAM. The only reason I'm bumping this down slightly is because I don't think of Metropolis pts 1 and 2 as a single listening experience, despite the common themes.

3. Octavarium - Easily the best of DT's ~20 minute epics, beautiful buildup and payoff, with a lot to tie it all together.

4. 12 Step Suite - Works better as a whole than you'd think from the individual parts, and includes some of DT's best songs, but after TROAE it does lose steam, with the still very good but overly drawn out Repentance, and the very disappointing rehash of TSF.

5. A Mind Beside Itself - All fantastic songs, but I don't get anything more out of them as a whole. It's 3 songs with some common bits. All great, but no better as a suite than individually.

6. The Count of Tuscany - The entire start and end of this song are among the best things DT has ever written, and I'd argue they haven't come close since, but the weak verses and vocal melodies unfortunately let it down a bit. The song can still give me chills though.

7. A Change of Seasons - Good, but not great, and doesn't reach the heights of their later and better epics.

8. Illumination Theory - Some excellent sections and flashes of brilliance, but it's not very cohesive overall, and has some reused epic cliches, and I find the instrumental sections a chore to get through now.

All of this, except that Repentance is brilliant, and TSF is quite great

[Cable]

Fascinating! By including SFAM, I feel if you made this a poll that would easily win.

1 best, 9 worst

1. Metropolis parts 1 & 2 - only flaw is Regression breaking up the transition. But Regression is still cool.

2. A Change of Seasons- enough said. If I had a gun to my head, I would say this is their best song IMO. The song had so many years to grow. Minus the fast wah riff, there really isn't a part of the song I don't like. It loses a touch of steam with the second vocal section, but it picks back up. For better or for worse, the only thing truly missing is a JP shred part, but he usually does that live during the bluesy part. The lyrics are absolutely perfect, and probably MP's best ever. The song actually is quite heavy throughout. I didn't think so, and one day I had it on in my vehicle. I really here a lot of chugged riffs, but they blend in well.

3. 12 Step Suite-  fracking love this thing. And I love it even more when I made a continuous track. The transitions are pretty sweet, and ironically the least expected one is the best one IMO - Repentance > TSF. I spliced in the beginning of the instrumental TSF, so after Repentance TSF hits FULL volume = awesome

4. In The Presence of Enemies - I will fight for the Dark Master of this song always! I just love so much about it. And if we take out 12SS, this is their most intense song from start to finish. Minus the transition, the song starts pedal to the metal and stays that way. I love a good chunk of the vocal melodies, there are multiple reprises of riffs, and the pre-instrumental section chorus in pt2 feels a lot like the choruses in pt1. The chants fit really well, vs. in POW where they don't so much. Just love this darn thing- not the lyrics though.

5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Awesome song, just cannot compete with the others for me anymore. Back when it may have been top 2 of the epics, maybe even fighting ACOS at times. Live Score version was great, but at the same time I wish they would have played the Overture with the orchestra. The transitions are kind of meh for some of it unfortunately.

6. The Count of Tuscany - a great exercise in DT being more restrained, while still having technical sections. Song is catchy and flows extremely well, my brutha or not.

7. Octavarium - This could swap at times with TCOT. But I just overall don't like the flow of the song. After the big band intro, and the great mellow section, including vocals, I expect the song to pick back up- it doesn't. We go into medicate. The instrumental after that is cool, and the Full Circle riff is cool. The idea of the lyrics is cool in the secion- just not in a song that ties an album together. Yes, I know the lyrics and songs come full circle. But what Owen Wilson and Jack the Ripper have to do with that, I don't know. The 8 steps part is awesome, and the outro with JP is incredible. So there are many great parts to me, but the song loses drive to me.

8. A Mind Beside Itself - meh. Voices the lyrics are the only redeemable part of it for me, sorry. Silent Man is cool though, love the backing vocals and Erotomania reprise.

9. Illumination Theory - just not very good yet IMO. It's not terrible, but there is only one riff reprise. The falling off the cliff thing is cool, but not the classical string part. Some cool ideas here and there, and I like the "consider this question." But it just doesn't hold up overall compared to all the others.

[Kotowboy]

DarkStarShades speaks the truth. Octavarium is the best them and A Change Of Seasons is the worst them !

[npiazza91]

Actually some of these you've ranked were written as one song.
I'm amazed that you left out In the Presence of Enemies!
Here's my ranking anyway

1.- Octavarium: Personally, the best song by DT ever, and yeah, this kicks Metropolis's ass for me because it does so many things so good, idk, my fav song by DT ever. Kicked ass, kicks ass, and will kick ass.

2.- Now, for Metropolis. I do count Metropolis Pt2 as a single song split in parts. But I can't count Metropolis Pt 1 as anything else as a prequel and overall different material, even though many things are reprised in Pt2. Beautifully written and filled with energy, as well as having some of the best segments in DT discography.

3.- 6DOIT: This one is one song, longest OFFICIAL song in DT discography. I love it, absolutely love it. Especially the Score version. Emotive, great, deals with a topic that I'm very interested on, awesome. The only letdown is probably the fact that I'm not very fan of the studio version and how short War Inside my Head is, but everywhere else, it's awesome.


4.- In the Presence of Enemies: The ultimate DT Epic. It has been proven, by people who have actually covered it, that this is the single most difficult piece ever written by DT. And if not, at least it's the hardest epic. It puts everything that DT is in a single song, melodic calm parts, epic choruses and extremely agressive and crazy hard solos. Telling an awesome story. My issue with this? Nothing, not really.

5.- Twelve Step Suite: The band did see it as a single song (or work) spread across 5 albums. And it's the longest song NONOFICIALLY in DT discography. A total carnage heavyfest for any metalhead, nearly completely heavy from beggining to end, except for Repentance which does a great job being a letdown but halfway, stops being really calm and slowly returns to the kickassery of TSF. MY GREATEST PROBLEM: The lyrics. Sure, it has some nice parts here and there, especially in TGP, but god, TSF isn't a good song lyrically. "I am responsible, when anyone..." sure, that fits as a promise by an AA member, but not as a line in a metal song.

6.- A Mind Beside Itself: Listen to the LSFNY version. They do an awesome job in placing it all together as one piece and it flows perfectly into The Silent Man. My greatest issue is actually Erotomania, don't get me wrong, love the second half of it, but at the beggining it's actually pretty random and not very attractive for me. Voices is perfect.

7.- Illumination Theory: Love it as well. My issue? Too much time without DT main members, too little lyrics and very long solo section which really doesn't add that much. Ending is beautiful and perfect and the piano passage at the veery end is also awesome. The intro really does an incredible job. Best song on DT12 for me, and has very meaningful lyrics that could be adapted into something bigger.

8.- The Count of Tuscany: Beautiful intro, the best on DT has ever done. Beautiful outro, awesome as well. The issue? The middle part, as well as the verses and chorus, are rather weak and feel not soo inspired as the intro. The enormous silent part is mood-dependant, sometimes I want to hear it, others I just skip it, and that's not something good.

9.- A Change of Season: My least favorite DT epic. Probably because of how much I hate the studio version and just... I don't know, it doesn't feel... cool. I cannot say I love it, but I cannot say I don't like it, it's just... Meh, well, I can't say anything else.

Wow...how could I forget In the Presence of Enemies?  Might as well add that one too.  I would put it at number 5 personally.  Amazing song, but it does meander a bit in the middle of part 2.

[Mosh]

In all seriousness, long songs are great because of their ability to go through multiple emotional stages, but there's a point where "longer is better" doesn't hold anymore.

It NEVER holds.   There is absolutely no correlation between "song length" and whatever standard it is that we judge "good songs".   "Yesterday"; two minutes and three seconds of perfection.

There's no direct relationship, as in, a song being longer does not automatically make it better. But there are some artists, like Dream Theater, who seemingly work extra hard to make sure their epics have a lot of good musical ideas that build on each other and work together to form a bigger whole. In the case of those artists, I think it's perfectly fair to say that in many cases, their long songs are among their best works.

Exactly. It's not like people decide they'll like the song automatically because of length, it's because the bands will generally spend more time and effort on them, which ends up making them better. A great example is Neal Morse. Every album he does it seems very obvious that he spent significantly more effort into the epics, to the point where the shorter songs seem like filler.

[JediKnight1969]

1- Metropolis 1 & 2 (Absolute perfection)
2- A Change of Seasons (Next to perfection)
3- A Mind Beside Itself (Brilliant)
4- In the presence of enemies (Criminally underrated)
5- The Count of Tuscany (Nice tune)
6- Octavarium (Nice too)
7- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Overrated)
8- 12 Step Suite (Nonsense)
9- Illumination Theory (Total disappointment)

[Train of Naught]

1. A Change of Seasons
2. Metropolis
3. Octavarium
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In the Presence of Enemies
7. A Mind Beside Itself
8. Twelve-Step Suite
9. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

Granted, I like pretty much every piece on this list, just had to make some hard decisions to order them.

[Kotowboy]

Maybe one day i'll enjoy A Change Of Seasons as much as everyone else


But I doubt it.

[jammindude]

I love long DT songs and I love making them longer by listening to the ones that share a theme as one song.  Most of these were intended as one song, but I always prefer listening to the 12 Step Suite as one, and Metropolis 1 & 2 as one.  I usually put The Mirror in front of the 12 Step Suite and Lie at the end, but I'm sure I'm one of the only ones that do this.

<snip>

I have a mix of the 12SS that I did.   I put The Mirror in front, but I did a mix in Audacity where I cut out Lie altogether and just have the ending of The Mirror cut straight to the repeating power chords at the end of Lie.   (the band played The Mirror this way live on the LSFNY album if you want to hear what I'm talking about...I just did a studio mix of the exact same thing) 

Lie is really not a very good song, and absolutely not related to the 12SS the way that The Mirror is, so there is really no reason to include it. 

[54_diplomats]

1. A Change of Seasons
2. Metropolis
3. A Mind Beside Itself
4. Octavarium
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
6. The Count of Tuscany
7. 12 Step Suite
8. Illumination Theory
9. In the Presence of Enemies

[kaos2900]

This was hard, but on first instinct.

1. Metropolis
2. Octavarium
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. The Count of Tuscany
5. 12 Step Suite
6. A Change of Seasons
7. Illumination Theory
8. A Mind Beside Itself
9. In the Presence of Enemies

[Lolzeez]

-The Great Tier-

Metropolis
A Change Of Seasons
Octavarium

-Alright Tier-

Illumination Theory
A Mind Beside Itself
12 Step Suite
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence

-"No Thanks" Tier-

The Count Of Tuscany
In The Presence Of Enemies