Author Topic: The thread for things being taken down.  (Read 5114 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2015, 11:57:10 AM »
It's just like when schools can't celebrate Christmas.  Can't offend those who are not Christian.  The world is becoming to PC.

In all fairness, if was a Muslim, an atheist, or a Hindu parent, and I'm getting fucked in the ass for taxes to fund a public school, I might not want Chirstmas being shoved down my kid's throat. There is plenty of Christmas stuff out there. Just walk into Kohls or JC Penny the second week of September, the kids will see plenty of it. I really don't see a need to have it in school.
 
My objection to Christmas these days has absolutely zero to do with religion. I loathe the fact that the day is preceded by three months of every company in the world trying to get me to give them money. Buy your American children these clothes made by these other kids who don't get a Christmas. YAY! My girlfriend spent $200 last Christmas on cards alone. Fuck that. If I had my way, every school would celebrate Christmas my taking field trips to soup kitchens and homeless shelters and having the kids do vounteer work. Enough with the me, me, me, me, me bullshit.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2015, 11:58:32 AM »
In other news:  http://news.yahoo.com/appeals-court-considers-big-mountain-jesus-case-195149578.html

 
Quote
The judge, Obama appointee Dana Christensen, said no reasonable observer would conclude the Forest Service was endorsing Christianity by permitting a private party to place it on land it leases from the government.
The point I'd be wanting to know is whether or not the Forest Service was issuing permits to other people to erect statuary. Howabout billboards? Seems to me that if they're issuing and denying permits based on the content of the message, then they are making endorsements.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2015, 12:00:23 PM »

 
Quote
The judge, Obama appointee Dana Christensen, said no reasonable observer would conclude the Forest Service was endorsing Christianity by permitting a private party to place it on land it leases from the government.
The point I'd be wanting to know is whether or not the Forest Service was issuing permits to other people to erect statuary. Howabout billboards? Seems to me that if they're issuing and denying permits based on the content of the message, then they are making endorsements.

That's what I was wondering as well. If the FS was allowing this in order to raise money, then a group of satanists should also be allowed to contribute an equal amount and also be able to erect a statue.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2015, 12:00:33 PM »
It's just like when schools can't celebrate Christmas.  Can't offend those who are not Christian.  The world is becoming to PC.

In all fairness, if was a Muslim, an atheist, or a Hindu parent, and I'm getting fucked in the ass for taxes to fund a public school, I might not want Chirstmas being shoved down my kid's throat. There is plenty of Christmas stuff out there. Just walk into Kohls or JC Penny the second week of September, the kids will see plenty of it. I really don't see a need to have it in school.
 
My objection to Christmas these days has absolutely zero to do with religion. I loathe the fact that the day is preceded by three months of every company in the world trying to get me to give them money. Buy your American children these clothes made by these other kids who don't get a Christmas. YAY! My girlfriend spent $200 last Christmas on cards alone. Fuck that. If I had my way, every school would celebrate Christmas my taking field trips to soup kitchens and homeless shelters and having the kids do vounteer work. Enough with the me, me, me, me, me bullshit.

In school you didn't have to join in.  Like I said, It was more about not doing schoolwork really.  Just give me cake and presents and no schoolwork.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2015, 01:35:08 PM »
In all fairness, if was a Muslim, an atheist, or a Hindu parent

We had all that and more in my schools.  They enjoyed celebrating Christmas and we enjoyed learning about how their holidays differed.  And we didn't feel like we were contrasting and comparing religions, but cultures.  That's the difference between then and now.  Back then we talked about each other's culture in the interest of sharing.   Now we just have to apologize to each other.  And yet somehow we mistake the latter as "more enlightened."
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2015, 04:43:31 PM »

 
Quote
The judge, Obama appointee Dana Christensen, said no reasonable observer would conclude the Forest Service was endorsing Christianity by permitting a private party to place it on land it leases from the government.
The point I'd be wanting to know is whether or not the Forest Service was issuing permits to other people to erect statuary. Howabout billboards? Seems to me that if they're issuing and denying permits based on the content of the message, then they are making endorsements.

That's what I was wondering as well. If the FS was allowing this in order to raise money, then a group of satanists should also be allowed to contribute an equal amount and also be able to erect a statue.

Of who, Satan? :lol :lol  Have at it and let me know how that goes.

Offline Genowyn

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2015, 05:02:02 PM »
If they would not allow a statue of Satan then they are clearly endorsing one religion over another, which is exactly what this judge says they have not done here.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2015, 05:52:09 PM »
Yup. I have no desire to force them to honor Satan (LaVey might be a different matter), but either you're picking sides or you're not.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2015, 05:55:02 PM »
Have them put up a statue of a skiing Mohammed.  I would bet there would be complaints from Christians.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2015, 07:12:12 PM »
It's just like when schools can't celebrate Christmas.  Can't offend those who are not Christian.  The world is becoming to PC.

In all fairness, if was a Muslim, an atheist, or a Hindu parent, and I'm getting fucked in the ass for taxes to fund a public school, I might not want Chirstmas being shoved down my kid's throat. There is plenty of Christmas stuff out there. Just walk into Kohls or JC Penny the second week of September, the kids will see plenty of it. I really don't see a need to have it in school.
 
My objection to Christmas these days has absolutely zero to do with religion. I loathe the fact that the day is preceded by three months of every company in the world trying to get me to give them money. Buy your American children these clothes made by these other kids who don't get a Christmas. YAY! My girlfriend spent $200 last Christmas on cards alone. Fuck that. If I had my way, every school would celebrate Christmas my taking field trips to soup kitchens and homeless shelters and having the kids do vounteer work. Enough with the me, me, me, me, me bullshit.


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Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #80 on: July 11, 2015, 09:26:15 AM »
It's just like when schools can't celebrate Christmas.  Can't offend those who are not Christian.  The world is becoming to PC.

In all fairness, if was a Muslim, an atheist, or a Hindu parent, and I'm getting fucked in the ass for taxes to fund a public school, I might not want Chirstmas being shoved down my kid's throat. There is plenty of Christmas stuff out there. Just walk into Kohls or JC Penny the second week of September, the kids will see plenty of it. I really don't see a need to have it in school.
 

But if you were a Christian, you'd be okay with evolution being shoved down their throats?    Point is not to open that can of worms (and I admit the examples are not directly analogous) but because someone "pays taxes" - reasonable or not - doesn't give them carte blanche to call the shots.  it is a REPRESENTATIVE democracy.   I pay taxes in a town for education and my kid doesn't even go there; I don't feel I have any special classification with respect to what goes on in those schools.  And my recourse is not to opt out, but to move to a different community. 

Quote
My objection to Christmas these days has absolutely zero to do with religion. I loathe the fact that the day is preceded by three months of every company in the world trying to get me to give them money. Buy your American children these clothes made by these other kids who don't get a Christmas. YAY! My girlfriend spent $200 last Christmas on cards alone. Fuck that. If I had my way, every school would celebrate Christmas my taking field trips to soup kitchens and homeless shelters and having the kids do vounteer work. Enough with the me, me, me, me, me bullshit.

Wha?   Why do you get to decide that? if you want to take kids to a soup kitchen, organize it.  Do it.  I don't like the commercialization of Christmas any more than you do, but as long as you get people standing at the Wal-Mart door at 11:59 pm waiting to get in on Black Friday, it's clearly what the majority wants.

Again, the point being you can't have your cake and eat it too; if the majority gets to decide that gay marriage is "right" (in my view wrongly; the "majority deciding" part, not the "gay marriage" part), if the majority gets to decide that pot should be legal, then the majority gets to decide that Christmas is no longer the symbolic birth of Christ, but rather is the not-so-symbolic commercial Superbowl for merchants and retailers. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2015, 09:46:17 AM »
The funny thing is that, despite the numbers declining in recent years, the great majority of this country are still christians or a religion of some sort.  I think it's somewhere around 70-75 percent, so I doubt a large majority of this country have any problem with the christianity involved with Christmas or a nativity scene or anything like that, but as is all too common nowadays, the very vocal minority screams the loudest. 

I still chuckle when non-christians celebrate Christmas; hypocrisy much?  Sure, Christmas is more of a family event to just celebrate life now more than anything, and I get that is how some view it, but if you are a vocal agnostic or atheist, IMO, you are a hypocrite if you celebrate Christmas in a large way.  I say "in a large way," cause I have no problem with someone who is, for example, an atheist celebrating it with their family if the entire family are still christians, because, to me, that is one of those things you do for the good of family unity. 

Offline Randaran

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2015, 10:27:53 AM »
I still chuckle when non-christians celebrate Christmas; hypocrisy much?  Sure, Christmas is more of a family event to just celebrate life now more than anything, and I get that is how some view it, but if you are a vocal agnostic or atheist, IMO, you are a hypocrite if you celebrate Christmas in a large way.  I say "in a large way," cause I have no problem with someone who is, for example, an atheist celebrating it with their family if the entire family are still christians, because, to me, that is one of those things you do for the good of family unity.

I have to strongly disagree with this. It is possible to celebrate Christmas "in a large way" while completely separating it from any potential religious significance (unless I misunderstood what you meant by "in a large way". From your example, I get the impression that it is fine if the atheist plays along, for lack of a better phrase). I don't see how celebrating Christmas as an atheist is in any way hypocritical, as the modern commercial incarnation of the holiday tends to hold little religious meaning.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2015, 12:33:21 PM »
Not to mention that Christmas has it's roots in Yule, Saturnalia, Sol Invictus and myriad other pagan solar festivals that became amalgamated into the modern Christmas.  If some people want to attach a Christian meaning to that holiday and celebrate it for Christian reasons, that's fine, but since the holiday itself is heavily pagan in origin,  it cannot really be claimed that it is exclusively a Christian day of celebration.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2015, 01:04:54 PM »
I don't think it is hypocrisy to share a holiday that has become more about a country's culture than the religious implications for quite a few Americans.

I think the hypocrisy would be somebody constantly whining about the commercialization of Christmas and how it isn't even a real holiday, only to to celebrate it with big gifts, dinners and parties.

Have them put up a statue of a skiing Mohammed.  I would bet there would be complaints from Christians.

Bad example.  The loudest complaints would come from Muslims.  And the complaints would probably have death threats.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #85 on: July 14, 2015, 03:08:50 PM »
Not to mention that Christmas has it's roots in Yule, Saturnalia, Sol Invictus and myriad other pagan solar festivals that became amalgamated into the modern Christmas.  If some people want to attach a Christian meaning to that holiday and celebrate it for Christian reasons, that's fine, but since the holiday itself is heavily pagan in origin,  it cannot really be claimed that it is exclusively a Christian day of celebration.



Very well said.

Most atheists I've met (including myself) celebrate holidays from their respective cultures. I celebrate Christmas - I put up a tree, visit family, send out cards, play along with the Santa illusion for the kids, exchange gifts etc. Not one of those things has to do with Jesus in the least.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 01:05:31 AM by portnoy311 »

Offline Grappler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2017, 09:37:24 AM »
Based on my avatar, I'm an alum of the University of Illinois.  In 2007, the NCAA cracked down on Native American school mascots (schools without tribe approval had to eliminate their mascot or face penalties in that the NCAA would not allow the school to host post-season events.  So the schools and towns would lose out on revenues if they were to host the women's tennis tournament, that year etc., if they chose to keep their mascots). 

So Illinois removes Chief Illiniwek as their "mascot," though the Chief is truly just a symbol for marketing (logos) and the performer was an extension of the marching band itself (he only appeared do dance at halftime, never spoke while in costume, and acted with complete respect, thus, no tomahawk chops for first downs).  I disagree with the university's decision, but they didn't want to risk losing out on NCAA post-season events vs. offending alumni.  The school still retained the name Fighting Illini for its athletic teams.

Today it was confirmed that the school's PC administration has now eliminated the playing of the War Chant during athletic events.  The marching band would play this tune during games:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Untqa9Rg8R4

I'm amazed - you want to get rid of a visual mascot, a performer dressed up in a native American attire that dances at halftime?  Fine, whatever.  But now you're going to say that the band can't play a 30 second snippet of music at games because it has Native American connotations? 

 :censored

Offline cramx3

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2017, 09:48:41 AM »
I like that war chant too

Is FSU going to do the same thing?  I can't believe how many tomahawk chops they do during a game.  I feel like if they stop, then they have lost all of their schools tradition. 

I feel like the Redskins (with that name) is really the only native american sports related team that is offensive to people.  But I'm not, and not associated with, native americans so I certainly don't know how any actually feel about these things.

Offline Grappler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2017, 09:56:25 AM »
I like that war chant too

Is FSU going to do the same thing?  I can't believe how many tomahawk chops they do during a game.  I feel like if they stop, then they have lost all of their schools tradition. 

I feel like the Redskins (with that name) is really the only native american sports related team that is offensive to people.  But I'm not, and not associated with, native americans so I certainly don't know how any actually feel about these things.

To my knowledge, FSU pays money to the Seminole tribe - the tribe isn't going to turn that down, so they give their approval for the university to use the mascot.   The Illini tribe left Illinois years ago and merged with the Sioux, somewhere out in the Midwest/plains and haven't agreed to meet with the university to come to an agreement. 

The Cleveland Indians still use a red-skinned caricature (Chief Wahoo?) as a logo on their hats.  We noticed it during last year's world series. 

Having been a student at Illinois, Chief Illiniwek is much more respectful than some of the other native American names, mascots and images that are used.  I just don't get the elimination of marching band music.  Thankfully, they haven't replaced our fight song and alma mater yet.

Offline cramx3

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2017, 10:00:21 AM »
Didn't realize some tribes had deals in place for this stuff.  That's interesting. 

Offline Kattelox

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2017, 10:04:12 AM »
Hey, Grappler. I am (currently, and have lived here my entire life) in Rantoul, the sleepy town just north of Champaign-Urbana. I'm all too familiar with the Chief controversy. I do find it insane. C-U is, however, as you probably know, an extremely liberal city. While I strongly lean liberal, there are some people who are so outraged over stuff like this that it's impossible to have a level headed conversation with them, so I hardly ever discuss it with anyone outside of my family and close friends. I'm disappointed in the school's recent decisions. (as some around here would say, 'of course, you're a white guy...')

Offline Grappler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2017, 10:24:58 AM »
Hey, Grappler. I am (currently, and have lived here my entire life) in Rantoul, the sleepy town just north of Champaign-Urbana. I'm all too familiar with the Chief controversy. I do find it insane. C-U is, however, as you probably know, an extremely liberal city. While I strongly lean liberal, there are some people who are so outraged over stuff like this that it's impossible to have a level headed conversation with them, so I hardly ever discuss it with anyone outside of my family and close friends. I'm disappointed in the school's recent decisions. (as some around here would say, 'of course, you're a white guy...')

Very cool - reading the Facebook comments on some pro-Illini/pro-Chief pages is just like that today.  As sad and irritated as I am, there's more to life than a mascot and marching band music.  I miss the Chief, but it's been 10 years and I've just accepted it and watch old videos on youtube.  I just think it's silly that it has to come to eliminating marching band music. 

Offline Kattelox

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2017, 10:48:14 AM »
Hey, Grappler. I am (currently, and have lived here my entire life) in Rantoul, the sleepy town just north of Champaign-Urbana. I'm all too familiar with the Chief controversy. I do find it insane. C-U is, however, as you probably know, an extremely liberal city. While I strongly lean liberal, there are some people who are so outraged over stuff like this that it's impossible to have a level headed conversation with them, so I hardly ever discuss it with anyone outside of my family and close friends. I'm disappointed in the school's recent decisions. (as some around here would say, 'of course, you're a white guy...')

Very cool - reading the Facebook comments on some pro-Illini/pro-Chief pages is just like that today.  As sad and irritated as I am, there's more to life than a mascot and marching band music.  I miss the Chief, but it's been 10 years and I've just accepted it and watch old videos on youtube.  I just think it's silly that it has to come to eliminating marching band music.

Couldn't have said it better, especially about eliminating the band music, as someone who was a band geek in school. :)

Offline bosk1

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #93 on: August 25, 2017, 11:36:10 AM »
I feel like the Redskins (with that name) is really the only native american sports related team that is offensive to people.  But I'm not, and not associated with, native americans so I certainly don't know how any actually feel about these things.

No.  Most of us aren't.  Because it isn't offensive.  And, interestingly, most of us in this region anyway think it's dumb to say "Native American" when we call ourselves "Indians."  So there you have it. 
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #94 on: August 25, 2017, 03:03:08 PM »
Chief Wahoo from the Cleveland Indians is worse, IMO. He's an unflattering caricature.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2017, 03:10:57 PM »
Yeah, if there are any to be offended about, that's the one. 
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2017, 03:15:36 PM »
I was just going to come in here to say that Chief Wahoo seems like the most overtly offensive to me.

I feel like the Redskins (with that name) is really the only native american sports related team that is offensive to people.  But I'm not, and not associated with, native americans so I certainly don't know how any actually feel about these things.

No.  Most of us aren't.  Because it isn't offensive.  And, interestingly, most of us in this region anyway think it's dumb to say "Native American" when we call ourselves "Indians."  So there you have it. 

Isn't it widely considered to have taken on a more and more negative connotation over the 1800s and early 1900s?
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Offline Tick

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #97 on: September 09, 2017, 08:30:37 AM »

Vegan protest set for today to have this majestic bacon statue taken down.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #98 on: September 12, 2017, 01:09:23 PM »
According to my father (retired Army Col.), a certain "hippie" viewpoint I have is that humans shouldn't eat pigs. I gave up pork completely due to my feelings on eating an animal of their intelligence. There's a common question to ask what people 100 years from now will think current people are weird / shortsighted for doing. I'd wager slow to act on climate change and eating of pigs have a decent shot.

Also, protests and counterprotests are a pretty pure form of using the rights of Americans.

But, all that being said there's more important things than bacon statutes to worry about. I wouldn't personally care about this statue. But that comes more from an appeal to pragmatism than anything else.

I think the protest will happen, and in 2 weeks everyone will forget it happened.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #99 on: September 12, 2017, 01:21:40 PM »
I'm confused. Which one of you two was being serious?
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #100 on: September 12, 2017, 01:24:38 PM »
 Now I'm confused. We're at the point where I wouldn't put it past some group to protest that. Or for a bacon statue to exist. Maybe I'm just an idiot.


... what is that statue?

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #101 on: September 12, 2017, 01:27:04 PM »
 :rollin

I was under the impression Tick was joking and that wasn't an actual bacon statue (although I can see why someone would think it is  :lol)

But on a serious note, why not eat pig and why do you think people will look back poorly on doing so?  Obviously it isn't due to the delicious taste.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #102 on: September 12, 2017, 01:48:24 PM »
Lol this is hilarious. I'm on my phone 95% of the time I'm here so on a little screen it didn't cross my mind that could or should be anything but bacon.

For not eating it, that is its own thread topic really in how big of a discussion it could be (if it hasn't already been a thread.) Basically, from what I've researched pigs have a greater understanding of suffering than say, a cow or chicken or fish (all of which I eat). Whereas a cow reacts like it's in pain, it'll never think, "I am in pain" because it lacks the thought, "I exist." The pig would think that. That's a stopping point for me personally.

I could be way off (I'm a software engineer, not a biologist or psychologist), but that's my cliff notes thought process
 It really does need its own thread.


Edit: to be clear, I'm not judging anyone for eating pig. I just meant if you were to get in the Delorean and go to where we don't need roads - eating pigs might be viewed differently.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #103 on: September 12, 2017, 02:21:54 PM »
I eat all sorts of meat but I fully believe that a a hundred years from now(give or take)  humans will have stopped eating animals en masse.   It'll be a drastic change in the entire world's economy and I can't imagine what'll take to get there but I'm fairly certain vegetarians and vegans are a trend that is growing and will not go away.

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #104 on: September 12, 2017, 02:28:05 PM »
I eat all sorts of meat but I fully believe that a a hundred years from now(give or take)  humans will have stopped eating animals en masse.   It'll be a drastic change in the entire world's economy and I can't imagine what'll take to get there but I'm fairly certain vegetarians and vegans are a trend that is growing and will not go away.

I don't believe they are going anywhere either, but I wouldn't go so far.  I'd say it's more likely we are eating lab grown meats than giving up eating animals all together.  Humans have been eating meat for a very long time (quick google search says 2.5 million years) so I don't think the next 100 years will change much of that.