Author Topic: The thread for things being taken down.  (Read 4436 times)

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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2015, 11:49:58 AM »
The problem I've always had is that I find mob calls for bans and boycotts destructive, so it isn't about forming a counter-protest effectively.  It is that competing boycotts just burn the whole thing down.  If I don't like a TV show, I don't watch that TV show.  I don't boycott the entire network.  If I think a particular product is harmful, I buy a corresponding product that is better.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2015, 11:56:09 AM »
Don't you find that boycotts are an unavoidable consequence of "market centered" politics, a la Libertarianism or conservative Republicanism?  If you are going to give so much power to the market, the boycott is the way for the consumer to organize to affect the market.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2015, 12:33:46 PM »
Not really. I think we have to differentiate. Private citizens should be able to fly the flag as much as they want, and I never really argued otherwise.

My issue is what comes from the government. By omitting the word "nigger" from legal documents, you're not denying that there ever was a problem, and the same thing is my issue with the Confederate Flag. A state has no issue flying it.

I will agree that the outrage has, as is often the case, gone way too far, be it through bullying or through pre-emptive obedience. But that doesn't mean that everyone who wants the Confederate Flag to disappear from goverment buildings and the like has tunnel vision, as Calvin put it. Even if it were not the symbol of a systematic denial of rights on racist grounds, it is still the flag of a secessionist movement that fought and lost to the United States.

EDIT: Basically what hef said. I agree with everything in his post.

You're right, we have to differentiate, but the reality is we are not differentiating.  Fine, let's concede the government buildings.   Please tell me where that gives the right to Moveon.org to call for Macy's to boycott Trump?   Why did Jeff Bezo's then feel the need to get out in front of this and refuse to sell it?

I know, I know, it's their right, I got it, I've argued that in the past and I have the t-shirt to prove it.  But that's not what is happening, and you (collective) can't, with a straight face, say it is.  Commerce is running scared of the people that don't have any interest in differentiating, and in fact, have a vested interest in NOT differentiating. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2015, 12:37:50 PM »
Hopefully a lot of DOH fans will let TVLand know what they think.

DoH was on when I was a very young kid.  It had a car doing jumps, so like Knight Rider, the boys would talk about the crazy stunt they saw on the show the night before.  The way them Duke boys barely made it out of trouble.  And a sucker for the going into commercial mid jump cliffhanger.

But by the time you reach about 10, the show went from thrilling to ridiculously formulaic.  Nothing changed in the show.  You just became slightly more sophisticated in your viewing habits (for a 10yo).  DoH isn't even a show I watch for nostalgic purposes.

So I wouldn't count on a large DoH support group.  It will be more about principle than people actually wanting to see DoH on TVLand again.

Uh, that is revisionist history and I can prove it.   Ten lines and over 5 years of viewing experience and you didn't mention Catherine Bach ONCE?  I'm calling bullshit.  :)   

Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2015, 12:50:02 PM »
Don't you find that boycotts are an unavoidable consequence of "market centered" politics, a la Libertarianism or conservative Republicanism?  If you are going to give so much power to the market, the boycott is the way for the consumer to organize to affect the market.

If you haven't guessed, I think about this a lot and it is one aspect of my politics/economic viewpoint that I have the most uneasiness.   I agree it is a powerful and necessary tool, and while I personally tend toward the "personal responsibility" (I either buy it or I don't, I either watch it or I don't) I can understand the need for information. 

But we're past that.  It's one thing to say "Hey, folks, Monsanto tested this bug spray on real humans, and those humans died as a result.  Buy responsibly."   No question, make sure the information is out there for people to make informed decisions.   But to say "HEY! AXL ROSE USED THE F-WORD IN HIS SONG!   BURN ALL HIS CDS AND MAKE SURE AMAZON IS SHAMED INTO NOT SELLING THEM THROUGH GUILT BY ASSOCIATION!" is very different.   One, "boycott" means you don't buy and you get others to not buy.    Here, we're pre-empting the sale outright.   If I, at arms length, say I'm just not going to watch DoH, and CBS cancels them because ratings aren't working, that's a boycott.  Here, CBS is taking DpH off before the market can even vote.  That's bullying.

And I think it is because the "boycotters" are not at all confident in their message and in the power of their position.  If they did, they'd have no problem in letting the market actually decide.  Because with that, comes the responsibility to accept an answer you don't want to hear.    The evangelicals have had to deal with this market reality for a long time; they can squeal about "Darling Nikki" all they want, the market has spoken (Purple Rain has gone 13x platinum, last I checked). 

"A strong democracy is how it deals with the most unsavory of ideas"; so said someone I consider both a very smart man and a friend, and not coincidentally, someone who's political views are almost 180 degrees from mine.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2015, 01:00:25 PM »
Axl does a good enough job turning his fans against him.  He doesn't need help. :lol

Though, to your point, I thing the loud minority always gets the attention and people then overreact.  The majority who doesn't care is silent and then mock this decision on Facebook because that's all they can muster.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2015, 01:50:31 PM »
But we're past that.  It's one thing to say "Hey, folks, Monsanto tested this bug spray on real humans, and those humans died as a result.  Buy responsibly."   No question, make sure the information is out there for people to make informed decisions.   But to say "HEY! AXL ROSE USED THE F-WORD IN HIS SONG!   BURN ALL HIS CDS AND MAKE SURE AMAZON IS SHAMED INTO NOT SELLING THEM THROUGH GUILT BY ASSOCIATION!" is very different.   One, "boycott" means you don't buy and you get others to not buy.    Here, we're pre-empting the sale outright.   If I, at arms length, say I'm just not going to watch DoH, and CBS cancels them because ratings aren't working, that's a boycott.  Here, CBS is taking DpH off before the market can even vote.  That's bullying.

As you know I'm on your side with this. However, I don't really see your distinction IRL. The mob has no authority to preemptively force Amazon to pull a product. Amazon is just terrified of what the mob might do and acts on its own. Seems to me that it's merely the threat of bad press or a boycott that results in the action. The problem isn't with the mechanics of how this works. The problem is that we're a bunch of stupid pussies.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2015, 01:56:27 PM »
If you haven't guessed, I think about this a lot and it is one aspect of my politics/economic viewpoint that I have the most uneasiness.   I agree it is a powerful and necessary tool, and while I personally tend toward the "personal responsibility" (I either buy it or I don't, I either watch it or I don't) I can understand the need for information. 
I am much the same way.

But we're past that.  It's one thing to say "Hey, folks, Monsanto tested this bug spray on real humans, and those humans died as a result.  Buy responsibly."   No question, make sure the information is out there for people to make informed decisions.   But to say "HEY! AXL ROSE USED THE F-WORD IN HIS SONG!   BURN ALL HIS CDS AND MAKE SURE AMAZON IS SHAMED INTO NOT SELLING THEM THROUGH GUILT BY ASSOCIATION!" is very different.   One, "boycott" means you don't buy and you get others to not buy.    Here, we're pre-empting the sale outright.   If I, at arms length, say I'm just not going to watch DoH, and CBS cancels them because ratings aren't working, that's a boycott.  Here, CBS is taking DpH off before the market can even vote.  That's bullying.
I don't know that it is bullying.  I haven't seen a huge outcry against DOH.  Or anything else commercial.  All of these businesses are acting like, to quote El Barto, "stupid pussies."  They are acting before any outcry.

There's not really a boycott in this case.  I was just thinking out loud.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2015, 03:11:31 PM »
The problem isn't with the mechanics of how this works. The problem is that we're a bunch of stupid pussies.

Ha!  Can't argue with that. 

My point was, under the current "scheme" there's no chance for the "boycotters" to fail.  If your idea is so strong, and you believe it so forcefully, put it out there and see who bites.  See who supports you and who doesn't.  That's not the way it's set up now. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2015, 03:16:05 PM »
If you haven't guessed, I think about this a lot and it is one aspect of my politics/economic viewpoint that I have the most uneasiness.   I agree it is a powerful and necessary tool, and while I personally tend toward the "personal responsibility" (I either buy it or I don't, I either watch it or I don't) I can understand the need for information. 
I am much the same way.

But we're past that.  It's one thing to say "Hey, folks, Monsanto tested this bug spray on real humans, and those humans died as a result.  Buy responsibly."   No question, make sure the information is out there for people to make informed decisions.   But to say "HEY! AXL ROSE USED THE F-WORD IN HIS SONG!   BURN ALL HIS CDS AND MAKE SURE AMAZON IS SHAMED INTO NOT SELLING THEM THROUGH GUILT BY ASSOCIATION!" is very different.   One, "boycott" means you don't buy and you get others to not buy.    Here, we're pre-empting the sale outright.   If I, at arms length, say I'm just not going to watch DoH, and CBS cancels them because ratings aren't working, that's a boycott.  Here, CBS is taking DpH off before the market can even vote.  That's bullying.
I don't know that it is bullying.  I haven't seen a huge outcry against DOH.  Or anything else commercial.  All of these businesses are acting like, to quote El Barto, "stupid pussies."  They are acting before any outcry.

There's not really a boycott in this case.  I was just thinking out loud.

Fair point, and I am using DoH as a hypothetical example, not anything concrete.   I just think it has to be more "honest", or maybe "authentic" is the right word.    I get that any company can make it's own decisions, but I think I want a little less activism on the cash register side of the equation, and a little more activism on the wallet side of the equation.  I don't want Amazon to decide - with suitable fanfare - that I don't have the right to have a confederate flag, or 7-Eleven - with suitable fanfare - to decide that I can't look at boobies (I love that word), or want to be able to buy - or not buy - Ted Nugent records because it's my choice, and if I do buy one, I don't want to be subject to being a 'racist' by association. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2015, 04:14:50 PM »
I am waiting for the day that the loud minority, as kingshmegland called them, demand that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington be removed from Mount Rushmore because they owned slaves.  Don't laugh, it's inevitable.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2015, 04:37:31 PM »
This are the squeaky chain that gets the WD-40.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2015, 04:49:27 PM »
I am waiting for the day that the loud minority, as kingshmegland called them, demand that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington be removed from Mount Rushmore because they owned slaves.  Don't laugh, it's inevitable.

I almost kind of want to start an online petition for that just to see how many people would sign it.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2015, 05:34:48 PM »
I am waiting for the day that the loud minority, as kingshmegland called them, demand that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington be removed from Mount Rushmore because they owned slaves.  Don't laugh, it's inevitable.

I almost kind of want to start an online petition for that just to see how many people would sign it.

Seriously; I say the "over-under" is the number of people that bought the last DT album.   My gut:  OVER.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2015, 06:33:52 PM »
I am waiting for the day that the loud minority, as kingshmegland called them, demand that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington be removed from Mount Rushmore because they owned slaves.  Don't laugh, it's inevitable.

I almost kind of want to start an online petition for that just to see how many people would sign it.

Seriously; I say the "over-under" is the number of people that bought the last DT album.   My gut:  OVER.
Easily over. Not only were they slave owners, but they both contributed to preventing this from being an officially Christian nation.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2015, 05:28:08 AM »
I am waiting for the day that the loud minority, as kingshmegland called them, demand that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington be removed from Mount Rushmore because they owned slaves.  Don't laugh, it's inevitable.

I almost kind of want to start an online petition for that just to see how many people would sign it.
I kind of want you not to, because I'm afraid of the results.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2015, 06:06:56 AM »
Can't say that I'm surprised by this one. I don't disagree with the decision. So sad.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/08/bill-cosby-disney-world-statue_n_7750380.html

Quote
A bronze bust of the actor, who has been accused of sexual misconduct by more than two dozen women, was removed on Tuesday night from a section of the Disney's Hollywood Studios theme park that pays tribute to TV legends, according to the Orlando Sentinel.


Offline Scorpion

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2015, 07:18:27 AM »
He pleaded guilty, didn't he? Why does it say that he was accused of sexual misconduct then?
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Offline Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2015, 07:29:56 AM »
He pleaded guilty, didn't he? Why does it say that he was accused of sexual misconduct then?

I think he admitted to possessing drugs that he intended to use on women. I haven't heard anything about him admitting he actually drugged anybody.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2015, 08:38:05 AM »
He hasn't pled guilty.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2015, 08:48:30 AM »
He pleaded guilty, didn't he? Why does it say that he was accused of sexual misconduct then?

I think he admitted to possessing drugs that he intended to use on women. I haven't heard anything about him admitting he actually drugged anybody.
Yeah, I've been arguing this elsewhere. Given the popular usage of ludes at the time, his remarks at the deposition were pretty innocuous. The problem is that since we all think he's guilty, myself included, it's difficult to not infer intent in his remarks, which would mean that he was going to use the ludes surreptitiously.
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Offline Scorpion

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2015, 08:51:55 AM »
Huh. German news magazine SPIEGEL has reported that he admitted in 2005 that he bought them with the intent to drug women that he wanted to have sex with and also admitting that he gave ludes to one of the women accusing him of doing so. According to SPIEGEL, he fought the release of the court documents but it happened anyway.

Link (in German only): http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/leute/bill-cosby-setzte-frauen-unter-drogen-um-sex-mit-ihnen-zu-haben-a-1042391.html
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2015, 09:14:36 AM »
Huh. German news magazine SPIEGEL has reported that he admitted in 2005 that he bought them with the intent to drug women that he wanted to have sex with and also admitting that he gave ludes to one of the women accusing him of doing so. According to SPIEGEL, he fought the release of the court documents but it happened anyway.

Link (in German only): http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/leute/bill-cosby-setzte-frauen-unter-drogen-um-sex-mit-ihnen-zu-haben-a-1042391.html
That's certainly the way the whole thing has been spun by the media, and why I've got a problem with it. Personally, I've thought he was guilty all along. However, the various media sources reporting on this are hyping the deposition up as a bombshell confession; it is not.

With regards to your synopsis of the article, it is essentially true. The problem is that there was nothing to suggest that any of this was non-consensual. People were eating quaaludes and fucking constantly back then. The fact that he obtained ludes to give to girls he was going to screw doesn't really mean much. Without the surreptitious element inferred, this isn't really different than picking up a bottle of wine on the way to your girlfriend's house.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2015, 09:17:49 AM »
Except that wine is not an illegal substance.  Not that I disagree with your overall stance.  But that is a key detail you are glossing over.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2015, 09:29:37 AM »
Nobody is accusing Cosby of being a druggy or a dealer. They're accusing him of being a date-rapist. I don't see how the legality of the drugs in question matters there.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2015, 09:34:25 AM »
Good point, but my answer would be:  "it depends." 

This conversation originated with Disney's decision to take down the bust.  Their decision is likely being made, not on the basis of any conviction, but based on his admissions in and of themselves regardless of whether they go to innocence or guilt of the crime he is actually charged with.  In that context, the fact that he admitted to having an illegal substance may be highly relevant to Disney.

In the context of being convicted as a date rapist in a criminal court, I would probably tend to agree that it is significantly less relevant.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2015, 09:41:21 AM »
Well observed. The Disney aspect is an excellent point. However, I was responding to Scorpion's remarks about how SPIEGEL portrayed this, and how he interpreted it as a confession of sorts to the sexual misconduct.
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Offline bosk1

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"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Scorpion

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2015, 10:04:40 AM »
Well observed. The Disney aspect is an excellent point. However, I was responding to Scorpion's remarks about how SPIEGEL portrayed this, and how he interpreted it as a confession of sorts to the sexual misconduct.

You were, and thank you for clearing that up. I'm not usually that interested in what celebrities do anyway, so I just read that article today by accident and, without further background knowledge of the case, it certainly seemed pretty damning. Should have done some more research before posting what I did, I guess. :P
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Offline bosk1

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2015, 11:35:15 AM »
Stupid.  But also increasingly common.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2015, 11:40:40 AM »
It's just like when schools can't celebrate Christmas.  Can't offend those who are not Christian.  The world is becoming to PC.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2015, 11:44:28 AM »
Stupid.  But also increasingly common.
That's not like a lot of the other things I've seen lately.  Yes, it's a "religious" thing, but the circumstances are different.

But it's definitely stupid.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2015, 11:52:07 AM »
It's just like when schools can't celebrate Christmas.  Can't offend those who are not Christian.  The world is becoming to PC.
The fascinating thing is that as consumerism has completely marginalized Jesus' involvement in Christmas, I have less and less problem with schools promoting it. Santa Clause, Jingle Bells, Christmas trees, none of these bother me. Nativity scenes are a bit problematic, but since I reckon that schools are having to deal with most religious holidays nowadays, even that's less of a concern to me. I'm just very much of the opinion that schools are the last place that should be promoting religion. If they insist on doing it, then equal time somewhat mitigates my issue. 
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E.F. Benson

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2015, 11:55:38 AM »
It's more about the festivities in school that about religion.  I never thought of Jesus during the festivities at school and I went to a Catholic school! :lol
“I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam