Author Topic: The thread for things being taken down.  (Read 4707 times)

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Online Chino

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The thread for things being taken down.
« on: July 01, 2015, 07:15:12 AM »
In the event this confederate flag removal spraks a wave of things being taken down, I thought we should have a thread to discuss them.

Latest one I've seen;
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/01/oklahoma-supreme-court-rules-ten-commandments-statue-must-be-removed/

Quote
An Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that a Ten Commandments monument on the Oklahoma Capitol grounds must be removed because it violates the state’s constitutional ban on using public property to benefit religion.

Probably not a surprise, but I don't have a problem with it.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2015, 07:29:21 AM »
Does "our dignity" count? How about "our common sense"?  How about "the level of our intellectual discourse"?   How about "the respect for others' right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?  How about "our respect for tolerance"?

All these things have been taken down.  Is that what you mean? 

Online Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2015, 07:35:39 AM »
Is that what you mean?

No

Do I still have the following?

Dignity : Check
Common Sense : Check
Intellectual Discourse : Check
Respect for Others: Check
Right to Life : Check
Right to Liberty : Check
Right to Persue Happiness : Check
Respect for Tolerance : Check (it's the intolerance I have a problem with)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 08:03:51 AM by Chino »

Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2015, 08:39:29 AM »
Is that what you mean?

No

Do I still have the following?

Dignity : Check
Common Sense : Check
Intellectual Discourse : Check
Respect for Others: Check
Right to Life : Check
Right to Liberty : Check
Right to Persue Happiness : Check
Respect for Tolerance : Check (it's the intolerance I have a problem with)
How would your checklist look when you're discussing the whitewashing of Huck Finn? Story today about a Spanish teacher being fired for using negro to refer to black students. Common sense and intellectual discourse going on there? Like I've been saying, it's easy to support these sorts of things when you agree with the aim. The problem is that won't always be the case.
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Offline vtgrad

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2015, 09:04:27 AM »
Well, in my view (as well as in other's views), since our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution were likely INFLUENCED (notice I did not say strictly based-on, I'm sure Stadler could expound more eloquently than I) by the Decalogue, having it on the the grounds of any government office could likely be view as historical instead of "using public property to benefit religion".

I'm sure that the state's argument to that view would be that their State Constitution may not have been "influenced" by the Decalogue... however, I'm sure that it was influence in some way by THE Constitution of the US, which was likely influenced by the Decalogue.  So the state constitution would be de facto influenced by the 10-Commandments.

Just my opinion.

And I think Barto's right too; the manner in which something changes is just as important as what is being changed (maybe more so).
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."  Ecclesiastes 12:13

Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2015, 10:23:32 AM »
I think it depends on why the thing was put up in the first place.

If it was put up by the state as a way to honor the Judeo-Christian heritage that framed our laws, then I guess I could see it (although I'm not sure how the specifically religious laws therein survive being categorized as establishing religion - but I'm sure there's a workaround).

In this case, that's not what happened.  The monument was privately funded by a Republican lawmaker, for which purposes I could only guess (which means it doesn't matter that much).

Not sure if that has anything to do with it.  Although they obviously let him do it (twice, since the original monument was destroyed and then replaced).

At any rate, IMO, it's a matter for the people of Oklahoma.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline vtgrad

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2015, 11:11:02 AM »

At any rate, IMO, it's a matter for the people of Oklahoma.

Exactly... put it on the ballot and let the people of the state being governed decide what they want.
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."  Ecclesiastes 12:13

Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

Online Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 11:45:03 AM »
I feel like this time around, stores and states are preemptively taking stuff down. As far as social media goes, I have seen almost nothing in regards to taking the confederate flags down (not to confuse celebrations with demands), and I saw literally nothing regarding the removal of the ten commandments in Oklahoma. I think corporate execs and legislators are making these decissions on their own accord and with very little input/pressure from Americans.

Online Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2015, 11:51:35 AM »
Looks like Donald is the next target.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/01/politics/donald-trump-macys/

Quote
In light of statements made by Donald Trump, which are inconsistent with Macy's values, we have decided to discontinue our business relationship with Mr. Trump

Not that I am defending Trump in anyway (there was an element to truth to what he said), but I'm curious to know what Macy's makes of the workers that make their cheap clothing lines.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2015, 11:54:05 AM »
I feel like this time around, stores and states are preemptively taking stuff down. As far as social media goes, I have seen almost nothing in regards to taking the confederate flags down (not to confuse celebrations with demands), and I saw literally nothing regarding the removal of the ten commandments in Oklahoma. I think corporate execs and legislators are making these decissions on their own accord and with very little input/pressure from Americans.
Pressure isn't necessary when abject terror will suffice. If you don't have any idea what the mob is going to freak out over, you have to be afraid of everything.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2015, 12:57:32 PM »
Is that what you mean?

No

Do I still have the following?

Dignity : Check
Common Sense : Check
Intellectual Discourse : Check
Respect for Others: Check
Right to Life : Check
Right to Liberty : Check
Right to Persue Happiness : Check
Respect for Tolerance : Check (it's the intolerance I have a problem with)

HA!  Calling bullshit on almost that whole list.  And no, I'm not referring to you personally (though if we're going to split hairs, there are probably some things in there we can talk about even on a personal level).

We have no dignity at this point.  We have no respect for others - UNLESS WE AGREE WITH THEM.  Where's the respect for Diane von Furstenburg?  Where's the respect for any number of people who have been subject to a de facto silencing for no other reason than they didn't walk the party line with enough deference to the cause du jour?

Hell, I'll even play devil's advocate on the intellectual discourse, and waltz right into your wheelhouse.  A snowball in Congress is "intellectual discourse"?   Not even being allowed to discuss whether being "gender fluid" is an artificial construct without being branded a bigot is "intellectual discourse"?   

On this very forum are some scathing comments about the intellect and veracity of several far right politicians, for no other reason than we disagree with their worldview.  What did you say about "respect for others" again?

I'll give you right to life, but let's talk liberty.  No, wait, let's talk after I go and exercise my rights and buy a Confederate flag. Whoops, can't do that.  Okay, we'll talk right after I put my legal and registered handgun in my safe because I sure as heck can't bring it with me when I leave the house.  Okay, ready to talk... wait, let me just do one more thing, I have cancel my healthcare insurance because it is a waste of my money.  Nope, can't do that either.  Okay, I give up; let's talk about liberty.

Respect for tolerance?  When did "tolerance" come to mean "I have to feel exactly the same way about it as you (the collective) do, or face the economic and social wrath of social media"?  Do I really need to point out all the hateful twats that were sent to people who weren't 1000% in full acceptance and support of Caitlyn Jenner?  See above re: DvF.  She sent a tweet of SUPPORT and got lambasted for it, because it wasn't worded correctly.   Forget tolerance.  Tolerance is almost a hate crime at this point. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2015, 12:59:39 PM »
I feel like this time around, stores and states are preemptively taking stuff down. As far as social media goes, I have seen almost nothing in regards to taking the confederate flags down (not to confuse celebrations with demands), and I saw literally nothing regarding the removal of the ten commandments in Oklahoma. I think corporate execs and legislators are making these decissions on their own accord and with very little input/pressure from Americans.

And why do you think that might be?  Why might Macy's take a whole clothing line out of their store?  Simple:  the downside (cost) of the oncoming social media onslaught will be several multiples of the downside (cost) of proactively removing those goods from the store.  it might be "their own decision" in the sense of proactive, but it is every bit a result of "pressure from Americans". 

I cite (from the same article):  "A MoveOn.org petition calling on Macy's to sever its relationship with Trump had collected well over 700,000 signatures as of Wednesday morning."

Offline bosk1

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2015, 01:19:13 PM »
Well, let's just be thankful that two tv networks that show Dukes of Hazzard reruns didn't overreact and yank the show, or that Warner Bros. Consumer Products didn't discontinue producing die-cast replicas and model kits of the General Lee.  Because that would be silly. 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/dukes-hazzard-dropped-tv-land-150101689.html

Oh, wait...
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Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2015, 01:34:32 PM »
Well, let's just be thankful that two tv networks that show Dukes of Hazzard reruns didn't overreact and yank the show, or that Warner Bros. Consumer Products didn't discontinue producing die-cast replicas and model kits of the General Lee.  Because that would be silly. 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/dukes-hazzard-dropped-tv-land-150101689.html

Oh, wait...
Yea. Pardon my french but that is just fucking bullshit.
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Online Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2015, 01:36:42 PM »
Well, let's just be thankful that two tv networks that show Dukes of Hazzard reruns didn't overreact and yank the show, or that Warner Bros. Consumer Products didn't discontinue producing die-cast replicas and model kits of the General Lee.  Because that would be silly. 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/dukes-hazzard-dropped-tv-land-150101689.html

Oh, wait...
Yea. Pardon my french but that is just fucking bullshit.

Do they still have reruns of Archie Bunker playing?

Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2015, 02:30:12 PM »
Well, let's just be thankful that two tv networks that show Dukes of Hazzard reruns didn't overreact and yank the show, or that Warner Bros. Consumer Products didn't discontinue producing die-cast replicas and model kits of the General Lee.  Because that would be silly. 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/dukes-hazzard-dropped-tv-land-150101689.html

Oh, wait...
Yea. Pardon my french but that is just fucking bullshit.
You mean that's not a good thing? It's the people exercising their rights to effect change when things are too insensitive to others.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2015, 05:33:51 PM »
I am just laughing at how PC and overly sensitive America has become.  What a freaking joke.

I don't hear anyone calling for a ban on Ice T who raps about killing cops, but oh no, a show from 30+ years ago can't be on TV anymore because the two redneck stars of the show had a confederate flag on their car.  :lol :lol :lol

Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2015, 05:35:41 PM »
I am just laughing at how PC and overly sensitive America has become.  What a freaking joke.

I don't hear anyone calling for a ban on Ice T who raps about killing cops, but oh no, a show from 30+ years ago can't be on TV anymore because the two redneck stars of the show had a confederate flag on their car.  :lol :lol :lol
While I agree that we are a fucking joke, I do have to point out that there was all manner of outrage about Cop Killer, including plenty of boycotts.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2015, 05:56:32 PM »
Okay, but that was over 20 years ago, just like the Dukes show was over 30 years ago.  Plus, the landscape is completely different now.  Jay-Z rips cops left and right these days, often in vulgar terms, and no one says anything.  And he is pals with the president.  Must be nice.  :\

Offline Implode

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2015, 08:07:24 PM »
I agree that banning TV shows is stupid. It's not like this kind of thing is new. WB did the right thing with having this disclaimer in front of some of their older cartoons.


Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2015, 09:16:06 PM »
I agree that banning TV shows is stupid. It's not like this kind of thing is new. WB did the right thing with having this disclaimer in front of some of their older cartoons.


Loony Tunes were more offensive than the Dukes of Hazard (unless we're talking about aesthetics), and they got by with a polite disclaimer and an introduction by Whoopie Goldberg. That's actually quite reasonable. What we're seeing now is frightened pandering to a histrionic mob.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2015, 11:25:12 PM »
I agree that banning TV shows is stupid. It's not like this kind of thing is new. WB did the right thing with having this disclaimer in front of some of their older cartoons.



The last sentence of that pretty much sums up why I think this whole hysteria over the Confederate flag is a bunch of idiotic nonsense.  Just proves that America doesn't want to learn from it's past; it wants to act like it never happened in the first place.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2015, 04:50:31 AM »
What we're seeing now is frightened pandering to a histrionic mob.

I submit that the mob were just useful idiots directed by places such as change.org.

There are a bunch of people refreshing *social media* wringing their hands thinking "we got to do something" and organizations like change.org step in and give them *a* something.  Rather than take some time to think about it, they rush to be the first (for bragging rights) to push that something.  Some even delude themselves into thinking it was their own idea.

These are the same people that talk about the Bush administration rush to judgment on Iraq.  That GWB's team was only open to the evidence that fed their narrative, but rejected anything that goes against it.   GWB was so stupid because they only thought about the immediate but failed to see how it could result in 1 step forward, 3 steps back.

But let's ignore the parallels.  Obviously tunnel vision is considered a badge of honor with these useful idiots.
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Offline Scorpion

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2015, 05:53:56 AM »
I agree that banning TV shows is stupid. It's not like this kind of thing is new. WB did the right thing with having this disclaimer in front of some of their older cartoons.



The last sentence of that pretty much sums up why I think this whole hysteria over the Confederate flag is a bunch of idiotic nonsense.  Just proves that America doesn't want to learn from it's past; it wants to act like it never happened in the first place.

Not really. I think we have to differentiate. Private citizens should be able to fly the flag as much as they want, and I never really argued otherwise.

My issue is what comes from the government. By omitting the word "nigger" from legal documents, you're not denying that there ever was a problem, and the same thing is my issue with the Confederate Flag. A state has no issue flying it.

I will agree that the outrage has, as is often the case, gone way too far, be it through bullying or through pre-emptive obedience. But that doesn't mean that everyone who wants the Confederate Flag to disappear from goverment buildings and the like has tunnel vision, as Calvin put it. Even if it were not the symbol of a systematic denial of rights on racist grounds, it is still the flag of a secessionist movement that fought and lost to the United States.

EDIT: Basically what hef said. I agree with everything in his post.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2015, 07:53:37 AM »
TVLand's pulling of Dukes of Hazard is ridiculous.  If anything, maybe put a disclaimer on it like the old cartoons, but frankly I don't think even that is really necessary.

Hopefully a lot of DOH fans will let TVLand know what they think.
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Online Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2015, 07:55:17 AM »
TVLand's pulling of Dukes of Hazard is ridiculous.  If anything, maybe put a disclaimer on it like the old cartoons, but frankly I don't think even that is really necessary.

Hopefully a lot of DOH fans will let TVLand know what they think.

They'll reply that they're going to digitally remove the flag from all scenes and call it a compromise.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2015, 08:07:08 AM »
Nah, then they'd have to edit the dialogue to remover references to The General Lee. That's what makes this thing so silly.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2015, 08:11:47 AM »
TVLand's pulling of Dukes of Hazard is ridiculous.  If anything, maybe put a disclaimer on it like the old cartoons, but frankly I don't think even that is really necessary.

Hopefully a lot of DOH fans will let TVLand know what they think.

They'll reply that they're going to digitally remove the flag from all scenes and call it a compromise.
No show is worth that expense.

Especially this show.
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Online Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2015, 08:15:21 AM »
I wonder if Rockstar is going to pull Johnny Cash's General Lee from the GTA-V soundtrack.













*sarcasm*

Online Chino

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2015, 08:34:00 AM »
I was waiting for this one to resurface.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/digger/wp/2015/07/01/obama-administration-rebuffs-d-c-s-efforts-to-bring-back-the-redskins/

Quote
Efforts to lure the Washington Redskins back to the District have come up against a potentially insurmountable challenge: the Obama administration’s objections to the team’s name.

Offline Implode

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2015, 08:48:32 AM »
I wonder how long the Chicago Blackhawks's name/theme/logo is going to last. It's only a matter of time before that gets changed like the U of Illinois teams.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2015, 10:24:14 AM »


Not really. I think we have to differentiate. Private citizens should be able to fly the flag as much as they want, and I never really argued otherwise.

My issue is what comes from the government. By omitting the word "nigger" from legal documents, you're not denying that there ever was a problem, and the same thing is my issue with the Confederate Flag. A state has no issue flying it.

I will agree that the outrage has, as is often the case, gone way too far, be it through bullying or through pre-emptive obedience. But that doesn't mean that everyone who wants the Confederate Flag to disappear from goverment buildings and the like has tunnel vision, as Calvin put it. Even if it were not the symbol of a systematic denial of rights on racist grounds, it is still the flag of a secessionist movement that fought and lost to the United States.

EDIT: Basically what hef said. I agree with everything in his post.

I wasn't taking issue with state governments taking the flag down.  I was more taking issue with the banning of Dukes of Hazzard, Civil War computer games and the like for no reason other then simply bearing the flag, even when used in a completely historically or culturally accurate context.  Taking it down from government buildings is one thing.  Trying to wipe it's existence away from not only history, but the public consciousness as a whole, is essentially like trying to pretend that everything that the flag stands for, good or ill, never happened.  And it's this attempt to "sanitize" both American history and culture just to satisfy a small, noisy, oversensitive minority that I find so ridiculous about this whole thing.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 10:33:14 AM by The Dark Master »

Offline El Barto

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2015, 10:50:33 AM »
No, I think tunnel vision is pretty accurate. I get that people were thinking in narrow terms about what should be done with the flag, but what we're seeing is the quite easily predictable continuation of that same premise.

What about re-runs of The Dukes of Hazard?

And more concerning to me, where does it end? Do you honestly think that when people succeed in getting rid of something they disagree with that they pack up and go home? I said before, do we have to rename streets now because of this guy, because a lot of the people chanting "take it down" are going to call for it? How about the aforementioned elementary school or park? The Klan? Should it as an organization be banned?

We've really lost sight of one of the important fundamentals of this country. Some of our traditions are based on the defense of ugliness. Ansel Adams doesn't need first amendment protections. Maplethorpe does. The right to assemble doesn't need to be invoked for girlscouts selling cookies. Those God Hates Fags assholes absolutely do need it, though. In both cases it's a matter of protecting all things so that we don't have art police determining whether or not a picture of an ass is art, or some bumfuck town mayor determining if a political message is worthy of being heard. While I obviously recognize that we're not talking about government intrusion here, the fundamentals remain the same. If you aren't willing to stand up for the ugly, you have no one to blame but yourself when people decide that something you support isn't pretty enough.

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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2015, 11:40:22 AM »
Hopefully a lot of DOH fans will let TVLand know what they think.

DoH was on when I was a very young kid.  It had a car doing jumps, so like Knight Rider, the boys would talk about the crazy stunt they saw on the show the night before.  The way them Duke boys barely made it out of trouble.  And a sucker for the going into commercial mid jump cliffhanger.

But by the time you reach about 10, the show went from thrilling to ridiculously formulaic.  Nothing changed in the show.  You just became slightly more sophisticated in your viewing habits (for a 10yo).  DoH isn't even a show I watch for nostalgic purposes.

So I wouldn't count on a large DoH support group.  It will be more about principle than people actually wanting to see DoH on TVLand again.
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The thread for things being taken down.
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2015, 11:46:34 AM »
Hopefully a lot of DOH fans will let TVLand know what they think.

DoH was on when I was a very young kid.  It had a car doing jumps, so like Knight Rider, the boys would talk about the crazy stunt they saw on the show the night before.  The way them Duke boys barely made it out of trouble.  And a sucker for the going into commercial mid jump cliffhanger.

But by the time you reach about 10, the show went from thrilling to ridiculously formulaic.  Nothing changed in the show.  You just became slightly more sophisticated in your viewing habits (for a 10yo).  DoH isn't even a show I watch for nostalgic purposes.

So I wouldn't count on a large DoH support group.  It will be more about principle than people actually wanting to see DoH on TVLand again.
I have the same opnion of the show.  I liked it when I was small, but it doesn't appeal in any way to the older me.

I understand the principle, and I might sign a petition to that effect if one were started.  But I have no interest in the show itself, so I don't care if it comes back or not.  I still won't watch it.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.