It's Out of Control....

[vtgrad]

Is Podaar's daughter, or her friend, inappropriately dressed in that photo?    I'm saying not.  First, they're 19.  Second, the angle is hinky; that may be the view for Yao Ming but not me.   Third, still photos and "real life" are different.  There are women that can make your knees quiver without showing a lick of skin between neck and ankle. 

I agree.  Nothing inappropriate there.

The camera angle is quite "hinky"... perhaps giving the impression of more cleavage than would be present if they both were standing or walking.  But I will say... as a VERY happily married man... that I would struggle not to double take at both of them if I was in their vicinity.  Also, if I was in the vicinity of the first photo, I would struggle not to double take at her in that instance as well; because she is attractive regardless of her dress.  That goes more to Stadler's point I think... regarding knees quivering and such.

When I first met my wife (she was 15 and I was 18 home from college), she was working for a local clothing shop on main street in our home town; it was Halloween and everyone was dressed up for the trick-or-treaters.  She blew my socks off (and I'll never forget it) wearing a witch outfit that DIDN'T SHOW A BIT of skin (neck to ankle) but was form fitting.

My point... honestly I'm not sure.  I think both parties (the male and female) need to seriously think about how they react in situations like what GMD describes in the OP.  My personal opinion is that the attire one wears should be considered (especially for females in that age range); but the person who is having the reaction should consider their own thoughts as well.

That's not a stab in any way at GMD, and I'm not saying he had an inappropriate reaction (or inappropriate thoughts) because he thought they were dressed inappropriately.  Actually, he supports my point (as abstract as it is).  The female body is a work of art (Praise God for it!) and dressing in the manner GMD describes in the OP is going to attract attention.  In his case (and please correct me if I'm wrong), I think his attention was in the line of a father's attention... worrying about how other males might view the clothing choice.

[gmillerdrake]

In his case (and please correct me if I'm wrong), I think his attention was in the line of a father's attention... worrying about how other males might view the clothing choice.

Correct. I am not the father of girls...all boys, so it's hard to say for certain how I'd handle the 'dress' thing if I had a girl. I'm certain my way of thinking is way more conservative and old fashioned than I guess where society is actually at...but I don't think I'd go along with the way 12-17 year old girls are dressing now days.

[jingle.boy]

Great thread here.  Excellent debate and dialog from a number of different views - some I agree with; some I don't.  Hard to pull out specific comments from 2.5 pages of dialog, so I'll just offer some thoughts that pop into mind.  My views below are distinguishing between a skimpy outfit that doesn't totally cover up (full length tank top + modestly short-shorts... ie, no butt hanging out) vs being extremely scantily clad (both butt and side-boob showing, probably midrift and butt crack as well).  The latter, I'm thinking something like this and/or this (not gonna post the actual pictures).

The argument that girls wear extremely skimpy clothes because it's hot outside is weak.  There's plenty of fabric these days that allows heat to escape, so I'm not buying that girls dress like the pics I linked because it's hot.

My perspective is that GIRLS who dress like that are trying to grow up too fast.  Is it ok to dress like that as an adult?  Maybe... but the problem is that it's damn hard to tell a 14 year old from a 19 year old sometimes.  15 years ago, I wouldn't think twice about doing a double take on hot/scantily clad younger women.  But now, with a 14 (15 in 5 weeks) year old myself, I sure as shit don't want her turning the heads of 25-30 year old men, having the thoughts I know they're likely to have - all because she doesn't look or dress like a 14 year old.  I attach a recent picture of the jingle.family.  Tell me, do these two look like they are 14 years old?



Stadler nailed it about teaching these girls what message extremely skimpy clothes delivers.  And it goes for boys too - honestly, that's where I have bigger problems.  jingle.son hates wearing a belt.  He doesn't mean to be one of those low-rider boys with his gitch hanging out a bit, but he is (who knows, maybe he DOES mean for it).  Mrs.jingle and I try to encourage him not to dress that way, but simply let him know what others are likely thinking about his appearance.

And that's the real point isn't it?  What others think?  Right or wrong, we have cultural norms, and as a society (at least here in North America) are quick to make judgments.  Bosk is quick to judge a lack of self respect; Gregg thinks they're dressing for heat; Gary assumes the parents aren't raising them right.  We all pass some kind of judgment, as will the general public when viewing women dressed in this attire.  And if young teens want to attract attention to themselves as a sexual being, then so be it.  I can manage my thoughts about that, but as Gary said, not everyone can.

So, I sure as hell wouldn't want my daughter wearing clothes that show butt crack/cleavage, or side boob - for the message it delivers, and the impressions it will leave, whether on a specific individual, a group of friends/peers, or the general public.  It's inevitable (because of her figure) that she'll be showing cleavage, but can do so tastefully.

[gmillerdrake]

Always nice to get Chad's POV

[bosk1]

I agree with all of that.

And I always love seeing pics of Chad's family.

[jingle.boy]

And I always love seeing pics of Chad's family.

Fuckin creeper!   

[bosk1]

[King Postwhore]

And I always love seeing pics of Chad's family.

Fuckin creeper!   

 

[Podaar]

 

It seems it's frightfully easy for a Canadian to throw out the heat argument. It's 104 F here today, Chad. I'm wearing nothing but a Speedo and sunscreen. Now, THAT is inappropriate and disrespectful of myself and society...but, at this point, I don't care!

[King Postwhore]

Where's bosk1 when you need this line?


"Pictures or it didn't happen."

[gmillerdrake]

"Pictures or it didn't happen."

I'm picturing the 'George Costanza' picture shoot.....

[King Postwhore]

Or Kramer with the butter slathered on him on the rooftop.

[vtgrad]

The timeless art of seduction...

"Stick a fork in me Jerry... I'm done."

[jingle.boy]

It seems it's frightfully easy for a Canadian to throw out the heat argument. It's 104 F here today, Chad. I'm wearing nothing but a Speedo and sunscreen. Now, THAT is inappropriate and disrespectful of myself and society...but, at this point, I don't care!

Suck it up buttercup!  I travel to AZ frequently enough to know how that feels.  Stop wearing 100% cotton with jeans, and you'll be just fine, sweetheart.   

Put that 'eye-patch' away.  You're blinding the children.

[JayOctavarium]

Chad totally won this thread.

[JayOctavarium]

I have to say that while I don't have a teenage daughter (that would be a tad awkward seeing as I am 24)... I do have a teenage sister. I am lucky that she is far from the type of person who would dress unmodestly. She's almost too uptight about it. (she's also now 18 so it may change...)


And I have my niece, who is turning 13 in a few months. It's going to be interesting to see how she turns out. I don't think that she would be one to even want to dress in anything "skimpy"... but only time will tell.

[jingle.boy]

The more I think about it, the more I believe it is about these girls wanting to grow up too fast.  And the issue of being so scantily clad is about presenting themselves as sexual beings - which can be done tastefully, or trashy.  Either way, these girls want to dress like adults, they want to act like adults, they want to be treated like adults... but they aren't adults.  They aren't mature enough to be held accountable or responsible like adults, nor do they have the ability to accept or handle the consequences of their decisions like an adult.  Hell, I'd even argue that 19 year olds can't, but 19 year olds are (in the eyes of the law) old enough for society to treat them like adults.  It's not irresponsible or creepy for men in their 20s, 30s, or even 40s to oogle at adult women that choose to dress that way, but it is if the girl is only seventeen   And as I pointed out before, it can be very hard to tell the difference.

[CDrice]

They aren't mature enough to be held accountable or responsible like adults, nor do they have the ability to accept or handle the consequences of their decisions like an adult.  Hell, I'd even argue that 19 year olds can't, but 19 year olds are (in the eyes of the law) old enough for society to treat them like adults.

To be honest, I've seen a few 15 years old who were probably more mature and ready for life than some adults I've met. 

But yeah I agree with your point. Teenage years is a weird time. You're not really a kid and you're transforming into an adult, but you're not one. It's sort of step where you're trying to figure out who you are and who you want to be. And I think that may explain why you see young girls dressing like that. They are imitating what adults do. It's basically how we've learned since we were kids, so that makes sense.

The problem arise when the adult models they choose to follow have questionnable wardrobe choices. Wether it's relatives or famous people. And in my opinion, the parents, being the primary adult models in a child life, can do a few things to alleviate the problem. First, be there for your kid (duh!) and preach by the example. If you're a mother, avoid wearing clothings you would not want to see your teenage girl wear. And if you're a father, try to not drool like an idiot at every woman who wear revealing clothings    Otherwise it just sends the signal that it's okay to dress like this and that it is how woman get noticed.

So be there for your kids, talk to them and preach by the example the best you can! At least that's what I think... I haven't had the chance to put those things into practice yet... and I probably won't for a loooong while 

[Chino]

I'd say that I didn't start acting like an adult until about 24 or so. Even today some of my behavior is questionable (I fell asleep watching Bill Nye the Science Guy last night), but at least it's not dangerous like the old days.

[jingle.boy]

To be honest, I've seen a few 15 years old who were probably more mature and ready for life than some adults I've met. 

True... and the rest of your post was pretty damn good.

I'd say that I didn't start acting like an adult until about 24 or so. Even today some of my behavior is questionable (I fell asleep watching Bill Nye the Science Guy last night), but at least it's not dangerous like the old days.

No balcony walking?

[hefdaddy42]

lol

[Stadler]

Even today some of my behavior is questionable (I fell asleep watching Bill Nye the Science Guy last night), but at least it's not dangerous like the old days.

Uh, bro... that doesn't get any better.  I fell asleep last night pretty much walking into the kitchen. 

[npiazza91]

Hm...I'm going to chime in here.  While I didn't read the whole thread, I want to put out my opinion on the topic in general.  I'm not trying to start a heated argument here, so please don't respond with insults.  This is merely my opinion, and no hard feelings because of it.

There is one main difference between wearing a revealing outfit and wearing something "classy" (for lack of a better term).  One shows more skin vs the other.  That is an observable fact.  Using this fact, it is safe to come to the conclusion that when women choose to wear something revealing, the reasoning behind it is because it shows more skin.  Am I wrong?  I mean, they specifically make outfits that advertise the fact that they show more body.  They wouldn't advertise this fact all over sales and marketing if it wasn't the main reason a woman would wear it.  Victoria Secret anyone?

So, the only reason a woman would wear something that would show more skin would be to "look good", since men generally like seeing women in more revealing outfits.  "Looking good" in society is all about your physical aspects, the ones that the opposite sex finds attractive.    For women, this means showing more of your body, since to a man, this turns them on.

How would you feel if a woman walked around asking guys for sex?  You wouldn't think too highly of them right?  How is wearing revealing clothing any different?  What other message is it trying to portray other than "look at me, I'm hot"?  In the unconscious mind, the more skin you show the closer you are to full vulnerability, which is a sign of an intimate situation.  I mean, nobody looks at a beautiful girls' legs and says "wow, I wish I didn't see those".  Sure, ok, part of the problem is that guys DO look for the physical aspect when looking at a girl, but don't girls do the same thing when looking at guys?  Men don't walk around in underwear trying to impress women.  It's a difference in class.  Also, it doesn't matter what the guy thinks, because the INTENT of a woman wearing revealing clothing is, in itself, not very respectable.

How do I know the intent of a woman wearing revealing clothing?  Well...what other message is she trying to put out there?  What other logical reasoning could their be?  Please tell me, I want to know, because when I see women wearing revealing clothes, the only reason I can think of is "look at me".

Again, this is just my side of the debate, I know I may have come across a bit forceful, but I sincerely hope a reasonable, respectable discussion can come out of what I said.  I am ready to be proven wrong.

[Scorpion]

Okay. There's several things I disagree with there, and I'll address them.

1. You say that the only reason why women would show skin is to look hot. I don't think that that's true. The temperature is a factor here, for instance. If a man wears shorts in the summer, do you think he's wearing them because he wants the ladies to look at his legs? Probably true for some, but not really the majority - it's been 30°C here for a while and I don't think I've worn long pants/trousers in about a month, but it's not so that women look at my legs. Similar with women - just because a women wears shorts and a tank-top does not mean that she wants to show off how hot her body is. Another possibility is, as I mentioned above, with a certain figure and within certain budgetary concerns, it is sometimes not possible to wear something that fits perfectly - sometimes that leads to what some people would call an indecent amount of cleavage or a too-short dress.

2. That ties directly to your second and third paragraph, because they all work on the assumption that women wear clothing that you consider to not be classy solely to impress the opposite sex. However - and this will probably come done very much to personal beliefs, so I won't go into it too much - why is it a problem if that is indeed the case? If a woman dresses to impress guys, and does so by showing skin, why is that not respectful? You paint the analogy to asking guys for sex, and even though I don't really thnk that it is an apt one - why is that a problem? One-night stands are a thing, and you are certainly free to disapprove of them, but to say that all women engage in them are disrespecting themselves seems like a dangerous assumption to make.

(The second paragraph applies to women, that is, adults. There has been talk about children in this thread, but not by npiazza91, to whom I am responding. I'm not quite sure about my stance on the issue regarding minors, which is why I have refrained from commenting on that particular facet of the discussion).

[Calvin6s]

I have to call semi-BS on the heat and budget conclusions.
Heat:  If it were just about heat, then men's fashion wouldn't have gone from men wearing super short and tight shorts to super long and baggy shorts.  You can wear summer wear without your balls hanging out.
Budget:  most clothing items are charged the same whether it is S or XL.  Is side boob really happening because they top would have cost $20 more to cover that side boob?  If anything, those strategic cuts cost more.

But I will also call BS on the showing skin just being a sex call out.  Although it might be turning on every dude, every dude doesn't have an invitation for sex.

[El Barto]

More often than not fashion trumps sluttiness. The reason a girl might show more skin is because that's what's fashionable. The fact that it's fashionable because it looks sexy doesn't necessarily affect the girl's intention.

[Implode]

EB's right here. Sure, temperature is a factor, but it's vastly overshadowed by fashion. Unfortunately, modern fashion is all about showing off a woman's body.

[Scorpion]

I have to call semi-BS on the heat and budget conclusions.
Heat:  If it were just about heat, then men's fashion wouldn't have gone from men wearing super short and tight shorts to super long and baggy shorts.  You can wear summer wear without your balls hanging out.
Budget:  most clothing items are charged the same whether it is S or XL.  Is side boob really happening because they top would have cost $20 more to cover that side boob?  If anything, those strategic cuts cost more.

But I will also call BS on the showing skin just being a sex call out.  Although it might be turning on every dude, every dude doesn't have an invitation for sex.

I agree with your final point, so this is probably just arguing small issues, because that's the main thing that I was trying to argue.

That said, I'm not quite sure what you mean on the topic of heat. The less skin clothing covers, the more comfortable it is (in most cases, at least) during heat, so to say that women dressing scantily is not because of the heat is ignoring a huge part of clothing choice. I might be misunderstanding what you are trying to say though.

Size/budget concerns: this is probably the smaller part of the equation, but I do know that it exists, and it's not really about S or XL, it's about proportions - if you are very short and, at the same time, very busty, it can often be hard to find something fashionable without showing a lot of cleavage - that does not mean that showing cleavage is the intention, just a side effect that one is (hopefully) aware of.

Fashion is a big one though. I should have mentioned that - just dressing fashionably does not mean that one is sending an open invitation for sex to everyone who wants it.