Mike Mangini through the years

[Ben_Jamin]

I don't get why that quote is upsetting some people. It reads like a pamphlet, describing a good article that ties into his The Grid.

It is sad though when people would just rather stay with their usual, than to explore and discover theirs more beauty.

[Enigmachine]

From MM's Facebook:

These comments are fantastic!! Just what I'd hope to see! Of course, I did not mean anything negative about 4/4 ! I thought I was transparent, but one should never assume! So Sorry but it is funny if anyone though that I did because "Neanderthal" evokes images of a caveman trying to play a beat, which is slightly funny, and actually really cool to me if he means it and is trying to say something without "knowing a thing." This would also occur while not knowing the universe of fun and happiness that can be put within the confines of 4/4, including the impossible task of even copying somebody else's signature sound within it. That's the point... explore what can be done within one beat, never mind and odd string, or odd phrase of them. New DT early next year I'm expecting. I know the guys have said this in interviews. Still looks good. And yes... some of my best fun is within a 4/4 frame-work... there just might a 25:7 somewhere that is the perfect, emotional drum fill where playing 24 notes, or normal triplets, just doesn't do it. Forge on everybody !!! Enjoy the talk !!

He isn't saying 4/4 is inherently worse than more complex rhythms, but that it is such a common time signature that we are all very familiar and that it'd be cool to get into the feel of more strange things like a 11/16 groove to be more open to exotic rhythms and new possibilities (yet also acknowledging that 4/4 covers a very wide area). At least that's what I can get from that. Dream Theater, alongside other bands that Mike has been in, have played in 4/4 above all other time signatures anyway so it would definitely be hypocritical of him to trash it.

[Calvin6s]

He wasn't being arrogant at all.  He was just letting you know he's on a higher level than you.  He's up nyare and you're down nyare ... maybe nyarrrre.  Screw you guys.  He's going home.

He just stepped in it.  That's all.  Still need to get The Grid DVDs (or whatever other format is offered).

[Sycsa]

He's up nyare and you're down nyare ... maybe nyarrrre.  Screw you guys.  He's going home.

Which episode is that? I can hear Cartman's voice in my head, but I can't put my finger on the episode.

[erwinrafael]

What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?

What he really said if you actually look at how he phrased it was that people who don't completely understand the rhythms aren't allowed to have an opinion on whether they like it or not. To that I say "shut the fuck up".

Where did he say that opinions to like or not like a polyrhythm are not ALLOWED for people who dod not completely understand the rhythm? He did NOT say that. What he said, and I will quote:

MM forwards a hypothesis that "a friend that just doesn't 'get' Prog Music when the music gets rhythmically crazy" most likely "can't process it in order to even have an opinion that they "like it [ the music] or not.""[/i] because scientific studies have shown that " humans HAVE TO WIRE UP WITH POLYRHYTHMS OR THE AREA DOESN'T WORK SO A PERSON CAN PROCESS WHAT THEY'RE HEARING." When people who are not wired to tap the BA47 sector of their brains say that they do not like the music rhythmically when they hear polyrhythms, MM's hypothesis is that "what they don't like is the feeling of not knowing" what they are hearing, "not the music" in itself. Hearing polyrhythms musically does not come naturally for a lot of us because "one HAS to learn polyrhythms to wire up in order to process", so somebody who is not wired up would most likely opine ""I just don't' like it." Derrrrrrrrrrrrr... What else would they say?"

[erwinrafael]

So where in this statement did he say that prog is just about numbers? He did NOT say that.

What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?

I was referencing something Blob said about him talking about drumming and he talks mostly in numbers.

Where is this reference? I am just curious because you bring it up in this thread and I do not have an idea what you are talking about.

[Calvin6s]

He's up nyare and you're down nyare ... maybe nyarrrre.  Screw you guys.  He's going home.

Which episode is that? I can hear Cartman's voice in my head, but I can't put my finger on the episode.

I don't recall the exact episode.  I'm thinking it was either when he bragged about getting his pubes or getting his period.

[rumborak]

So where in this statement did he say that prog is just about numbers? He did NOT say that.

What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?

I was referencing something Blob said about him talking about drumming and he talks mostly in numbers.

Where is this reference? I am just curious because you bring it up in this thread and I do not have an idea what you are talking about.

MM is a big proponent of "The Grid", which is essentially all numbers, and JP himself has said about MM that music is math to MM.

[Train of Naught]

On top of that, MM also said that himself during the Q&A call they did for DTF.

[Calvin6s]

MM is a big proponent of "The Grid", which is essentially all numbers, and JP himself has said about MM that music is math to MM.

To be fair, I've also heard JR (and maybe JP) talk about how musical MM is.

I don't have a problem with MM analyzing beats with a mathematical mind.  Although, let's be fair.  This is rudimentary math.  It isn't really about how complex the equation is, but hopefully the end result.  Case in point, the Learning to Live intro is full of neat little numbers thing that translates to very interesting music.  JP is mathing off KM and MP is mathing off them both.  And I love every second of it.  It is extremely musical.

The problem is MM should have asked for somebody to read that post before he sent it, because it did come off pretty condescending.  But he owned up to it, so ... next.

I bet if MM did what MP did and have tons of easily accessible and promoted videos of him breaking down his DT drum tracks, he'd grow his fan base (or at least strengthen what is already there).  Haven't read all of this thread, but it is probably what MM needs to do.  Maybe he already is, but the general DT fan base seem unaware of it if he is.

[Rodni Demental]

What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?

What he really said if you actually look at how he phrased it was that people who don't completely understand the rhythms aren't allowed to have an opinion on whether they like it or not. To that I say "shut the fuck up".

Honestly, what he said is just like when some newb comes on here and says "if you don't like this thing that I like, that just means you don't understand it". That always annoys the shit out of me. Professionals on this level should really be above that. THAT'S my main problem with this quote. I'm not doubting anything about the science here, that's all fine. But how this guy says it is just bad and condescending.

Well for one thing, it's very likely this comes from him feeling the need to defend himself from all the endless accusations and assumptions about groove and whatnot. Also, he's not saying they're not allowed to have an opinion, but if they're going to write something off before they understand it, then it's going to be a fairly ignorant opinion. And really, the only way I could possibly imagine his post seeming offensive, is if you think he's talking about you.

I'm not sure what you mean about professionalism here, but isn't this that how it works: if I don't like this thing you like, then I simply don't understand it in the same way as YOU do. I might have a conception about why I think some people like it, and I can describe why I don't like it. But really, I shouldn't be pretending that I "understand" it.
I dunno, lets bring up say, rap music. I can appreciate aspects of it, the writing and wordplay, the rhythm, but as a whole, I don't understand it on the level of those who are passionate about it. I mean, lets say there's a generic pop song that I'm describing and writing off, if I think I understand it (and the emotional responses of all the people who feel something from it) then I'm kind of arrogantly invalidating the experiences of those who connect with it on an emotional level beyond the conceptual level that I have.

And then there's the inversion of this (the side MM is defending) where people write things off because they've formulated a conception after they didn't feel anything from it (not musical, too technical etc.) and then assume they've sufficiently accurately described the situation all the while completely invalidating the views of those that would claim otherwise.

[BlackInk]

And really, the only way I could possibly imagine his post seeming offensive, is if you think he's talking about you.

No, I think complicated rhythms are awesome. Specifically, I love polyrhythms, and have no real trouble understanding them.

[Enigmachine]

New video about the Rhythm Seminars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGVXnfJO2U

It seems really odd to see him holding a guitar.

[erwinrafael]

He is using a John Petrucci 7-string! And the poor guitar when he was tapping the pick on it! 

[erwinrafael]

So where in this statement did he say that prog is just about numbers? He did NOT say that.

What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?

I was referencing something Blob said about him talking about drumming and he talks mostly in numbers.

Where is this reference? I am just curious because you bring it up in this thread and I do not have an idea what you are talking about.

MM is a big proponent of "The Grid", which is essentially all numbers, and JP himself has said about MM that music is math to MM.

What? The Grid is not about numbers. The Grid is about Method, not Math.

[Kotowboy]

He is using a John Petrucci 7-string! And the poor guitar when he was tapping the pick on it! 

Holy Crap when he tapped on the body with the pick.  If he was a guitarist - his downbeats would be insane.

He could probably downpick that " flight of the bumblebee " section at the start of All Nightmare Long...

[Calvin6s]

New video about the Rhythm Seminars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGVXnfJO2U

I'm not really getting what he is trying to teach other than binary?
0000 0000 0000 0000 = 1st combination (don't play a single 16th note)
0000 0000 0000 0001 = 2nd combination (play the last 16th note only)

I don't think people practice that way.  If anything, you just practice the one beat
0000
0001
0010
0011
0100
etc or
2^4 = 16 combinations of a beat divided into 4.

It is kind of why they group the 16th notes together.  So you can see a 4 note pattern instead 16 different notes.  And that is of course just rhythmic.  Doesn't take into account the sync to the left hand and sync to the string.

Is this some paid seminar he's promoting?  I always like the take on music from different instrumentalists.

[erwinrafael]

Yes, it's a series of classes in Europe on rhythm, open to all instrumentalists.

[Kotowboy]

IE " how to play like a robot and not from the soul ".

[Sycsa]

It's a vague term, but I think that basically every competent musician can "play from the soul", with "feel" or "groove" (ew). Mangini is on the next level, his approach is unique, technical and interesting, I wouldn't put him down for being precise, technical and math-oriented. Watching him play, either solos or with DT, is incredibly entertaining, that's where it all boils down to.

[Kotowboy]

He is a great guy and kudos for teaching himself all that stuff. He sounds great when playing with the band but whenever he solos I am bored rigid.

[erwinrafael]

IE " how to play like a robot and not from the soul ".

Or "you can actually learn this stuff, it can be taught, it's not some elitist bullshit by people who claim that you can only play from some mystical mumbo jumbo residing within yourself"

[Kotowboy]

Yeah fuck playing with any feel. It's all about how fast you can play 64th notes at 240BPM.

[Enigmachine]

Yeah fuck playing with any feel. It's all about how fast you can play 64th notes at 240BPM.

I don't get this, MM has never taken that attitude. 'Feel' and 'soul' don't really exist anyway and surely practicing something to a high level makes performing stuff that 'comes from the heart' (another vague and hollow term) so much more easy and natural. Why does passionate investment and methodical technicality have to be seperated? It's completely fine if people don't like MM's style or approach to music, but to argue that he doesn't play with any emotion would just be false.

[Kotowboy]

Feel definitely exists. It's the difference between playing a rigid 4/4 beat with perfectly even 16ths on the hi hat and the bass drum smack bang on the 1 and the snare on 3 with exactly the

same velocity every single hit like a machine.

Or you could play it like the intro to " When The Levee Breaks ".

Not saying Mangini couldn't play like Bonham - but yes there definitely is such a thing as feel.

[Enigmachine]

Feel definitely exists. It's the difference between playing a rigid 4/4 beat with perfectly even 16ths on the hi hat and the bass drum smack bang on the 1 and the snare on 3 with exactly the

same velocity every single hit like a machine.

Or you could play it like the intro to " When The Levee Breaks ".

Not saying Mangini couldn't play like Bonham - but yes there definitely is such a thing as feel.

Isn't everyone be playing with feel then? No drummer, not even MM, plays absolutely perfectly in time to the nanosecond or plays each hit (unless quantised) played at an even volume (unless triggered) and that was never even his goal. If you define 'feel' that way, then the attribute is useless as it applies to any living thing. Even if it's applied less strictly, like say with people playing with a loose edge, I'd say that he definitely shows it in videos like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbWz-yFl_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFsomDtZpfw

Even if you find them boring (as I do, I don't generally find drum solos entertaining unless it's Neal Peart and only him), there are some really cool grooves in there with usage of enough dynamics and syncopation to make for the typical sound of a drummer with 'feel' (like Bonham).

[Kotowboy]

Hasn't MM explicitly stated that he trained himself to hit every drum with the exact same velocity ?

[BlackInk]

What he does in some polish clinic is fine, but what I care about is how he sounds with the band, on the albums, and so far he has either done okay (ADToE) or disappointed gravely (DT12). Now, whether that's his fault or not is another matter, and one I'm not overly interested in as long as he improves in the future.

[emtee]

What he does in some polish clinic is fine, but what I care about is how he sounds with the band, on the albums, and so far he has either done okay (ADToE) or disappointed gravely (DT12). Now, whether that's his fault or not is another matter, and one I'm not overly interested in as long as he improves in the future.

Agree 100%. The whole team needs to get the drum and cymbal sounds right on #13. I won't buy it unless I know for sure it's vastly
superior to the last 2.

[Enigmachine]

Hasn't MM explicitly stated that he trained himself to hit every drum with the exact same velocity ?

Yes, but it's about control. Training himself to do things like that can lead him to play in a dynamic way when appropriate, but when playing full-on metal, he can get consistently powerful hits. There's nothing wrong with that.

What he does in some polish clinic is fine, but what I care about is how he sounds with the band, on the albums, and so far he has either done okay (ADToE) or disappointed gravely (DT12). Now, whether that's his fault or not is another matter, and one I'm not overly interested in as long as he improves in the future.

I remember MM expressing disappointment at the sound of his kit in an interview I can't seem to track down right now. It was something to do with JP wanting a very specific sound at the time and MM and Rick Chychi being happy to follow along with it. I have a feeling that sonically, DT13 will be an improvement over the last two and MM will be able to shine.

I won't buy it unless I know for sure it's vastly superior to the last 2.

But surely even if it wasn't an improvement, the actual music matters above all, right?

[Rodni Demental]

Feel definitely exists. It's the difference between playing a rigid 4/4 beat with perfectly even 16ths on the hi hat and the bass drum smack bang on the 1 and the snare on 3 with exactly the

same velocity every single hit like a machine.

Or you could play it like the intro to " When The Levee Breaks ".

Not saying Mangini couldn't play like Bonham - but yes there definitely is such a thing as feel.

Well yeah, playing with "feeling" exists, but it's a pretty vague term and probably means a few things. Also if playing something less precise is part of feeling then really that's the just the human element to it right? I think playing with "soul" or "feeling" could also mean playing with sincerity, with passion. Furthermore, trying to figure this stuff out in a theoretical way is sometimes part of that passion or drive to appreciate or even integrate these things in different ways.

[BlackInk]

I won't buy it unless I know for sure it's vastly superior to the last 2.

But surely even if it wasn't an improvement, the actual music matters above all, right?

Bad sound kills good music. I think there's an okay song beneath the mess of The Bigger Picture's awful production, but I never listen to it anymore because whenever I do I just get frustrated by how bad it sounds.

[Onno]

^word. That's the biggest problem I have with DT12.

[Vandalism]

Yeah! I realize it when I am listening to some other DT album and switch to a DT12 track. I m like WTF just happened!

[pcs90]

The higher quality tracks really do help with the sound. I mean, it's still not great, but it's much better than the CD.