Author Topic: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words  (Read 6773 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Calvin6s

  • Guest
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #105 on: June 17, 2015, 05:58:09 PM »
I have no doubt Portnoy recognized the reused structures after three listens at most. 

As they said, Thiago posted prior to release.  I was listening to the songs on YouTube prior to release myself and was waiting patiently to talk about it.  If Portnoy was doing the same, then of course he wasn't going to be the first to point it out.  It is best that he wasn't the first.  It would have received ten fold the venom if that were the timeline.

Whether Petrucci was aware is a totally different story.  People tend to repeat themselves, and when you don't paint visually or with words, it is harder to recognize when you are having a similar inspiration. Usually takes someone else to point it out to you.  But that is usually confined to a section of a song as opposed to an entire song with an abstract structure to begin with.

But back to the original thread point.  This must mean DT12 is a copy of Awake.  And because Awake > I&W, then DT12 >I&W.  Clearly, Illumination Theory is a rehash of Space Dye Vest.  How can you not hear it?


Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 74109
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #106 on: June 17, 2015, 06:35:29 PM »
The parallels are glaring to be sure, but my theory is that DT tried to make an album "in the style of" I&W. Similar to Metallica making Death Magnetic "in the style of" their classic stuff.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Cable

  • Posts: 1513
  • Gender: Male
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #107 on: June 17, 2015, 09:06:55 PM »

I gave a measure by measure breakdown of a few songs on the John Petrucci forum.  I can understand that some may never get it.  Especially if they've never made a serious attempt to write some songs.  This was about reusing song forms, not copying riffs note for note.  A few joined the discussion, but it was mainly treated as blasphemy.  And yet Muse comparisons are just dandy.


Given the attention most DT fans give to their music, there should be no reason why anyone should not get it. I got railroaded in 2012 I think for saying LNF "tickle section" was in the same spirit to UAGM atonal/chromatic unison or whatever. It sounded completely different I was told.

I think that if anyone doesn't get it who has good knowledge of I&W, then the DT rose colored glasses are glued to the head. I haven't written a song, and I believe many non-musicians who know I&W very well can pick up on them.

Solid point about the inspiration corner rips being acceptable conversation.
---

Offline erwinrafael

  • Posts: 3436
  • Gender: Male
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #108 on: June 17, 2015, 09:32:11 PM »
I think it is fair to say that on I&W, he was playing a lot of "lead bass", so to speak, and not playing with MP in a traditional rock "rhythm section" role.  But that's OK, because they weren't a traditional rock band.  Musicianship was an important part of their formula.

However, with the songs on DT12, he (for the most part) is playing more WITH MM than he ever did with MP.   They are a lot closer to a rhythm section than on any other DT album I can remember.  And that's fine; the songwriting style on that album is more concise and less flamboyant overall, with all of the musicians.

He played a lot of rhythm on I&W, but he just has a sharp dichotomy back then between rhythm and lead playing, where the lead playing is superb but the rhythm playing is just ok. The exceptions would be TTT and LtL. If you would listen to SFAM, for example, where songs are quite in the same area stylistically as in I&W, you could hear a much better John Myung, where his rhythm sections give the songs the heft that bass playing should do in a song while blending in flamboyance and a confident voice that does not just get lost behind the sound of the other instruments. If SFAM-era Myung did Images and Words, that would be amazing.

I see Myung's playing in the Dream Theater album as being along that vein. It plays well its role as the rhythmic backbone of the songs, but at the same time, it has a particular flair and voice that does not let itself just be drowned out by the other instruments. The bass playing in the Dream Theater album does not lack flamboyance, engaging Petrucci and Ruddess' lead parts a lot of times while also doing outstanding rhythm work. 

I think I'll just start a thread on this.  :lol

Offline ReaPsTA

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 11204
  • Gender: Male
  • Addicted to the pain
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #109 on: June 17, 2015, 10:04:54 PM »
But back to the original thread point.  This must mean DT12 is a copy of Awake.  And because Awake > I&W, then DT12 >I&W.  Clearly, Illumination Theory is a rehash of Space Dye Vest.  How can you not hear it?

They aren't as directly similar, but the Awake influences are clear.  I think JP even said in some interview that they looked at Awake for inspiration when it came to making a DT album of more concise sounds.  Like Awake, DT12 is a very dark album.  And DT doing an Awake set during their last tour has to indicate at least some level of respect.
Take a chance you may die
Over and over again

Offline Dream Team

  • Posts: 5631
  • Gender: Male
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #110 on: June 18, 2015, 06:17:22 AM »
Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.
That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.

He is great on DT12, no doubt.  But it doesn't touch I&W.

But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.

If we're just talking mere chops, it would be like saying that 6:00 is the masterpiece song of Myung.

On WDADU I definitely think he hadn't found his role, and was playing for technicality rather than musicality (which I'd say about every member on WDADU), but on IaW he really nailed that balance (which I'd say about every member on IaW). Even when he's playing fast and higher up on the neck, it's always adding to the song and complementing the rest of the band.

And there's nothing on DT12 even half as awesome as the bassline to TtT. Case closed. :biggrin:

He's got a lot of great sad, emotional basslines on WDADU. This was mentioned in the commentary for WDADRU. He wasn't just flying around the fretboard.

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

  • The Original Unseasoned Fan
  • DTF.com Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6974
  • Gender: Male
  • The Original Unseasoned Fan
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #111 on: June 19, 2015, 06:35:05 AM »
Is it okay to talk about this yet?  The structures on PMU/OTBOA, UAGM/LNF, and AD/TITL are almost exactly the same.  And the WFS/LTL connection is used again for FFH/BAI.

This comment is not meant to be a disparagement of Dream Theater or their songwriting.  On the most basic, perhaps cynical level, they did the smart thing.  I like listening to Dream Theater albums so I prefer that they keep their career going.  In terms of subjective opinion, it's not like any of the songs actually feel like ripoffs.  I actually like TITL better than AD.  OTBOA and LNF are excellent songs.

I think the problem was that all the Thiago posts were insinuating that DT were a bunch of hacks, and then MP got on that train, and the fans who agreed with it got on that train, and so rather than a discussion of the song structures it became a dividing line between whether or not you respect the band on even a basic level.

But it's like almost five years later.  Is it finally cool?

I'm on the same page as you here. ADTOE is a terrific album, and I always enjoy it, but I don't feel like listening to it much for the reasons stated above. I dunno... It doesn't have its own identity or something. The similarities to I&W are enough that I'd rather just listen to I&W.
:TOX: <-- My own emoticon!

Offline Madman Shepherd

  • Posts: 3718
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #112 on: June 27, 2015, 12:07:14 AM »
He had already heard a leaked copy of it (BobS, who was with me, and I, had not heard the album yet aside from OtBoA) and he was telling us how all the parts of several songs matched up with songs on IaW. He didn't comment on the connection between AD and TitL, but he did with the PMU/OtBoA, LNF/UaGM, Outcry/Metropolis and FFH-BAI/WFS-LtL. The ONLY reason why he didn't say something before Thiago did was because of the backlash he expected to face online by commenting on these "coincidences".

So he waited until after someone said something so he could say he noticed the same thing, and somehow expected that only then would he not face any backlash?!   :rollin

Offline Darkstarshades

  • Posts: 1045
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #113 on: June 27, 2015, 12:51:53 AM »
Stop being like that.
Most of you had no idea of the similarities until you read about it.
The only part most of you felt familiar was the Lost not Forgotten guitar intro and the relation FFH/BAI.
Because that's the only thing that is really really similar in any way of both albums.
Oh sure, it has intro, voice, lenghty instrumental and then voice again to the end, must be Metropolis! Except that Endless Sacrifice and Beyond This Life also match this description. Most of these things are so detailed I doubt the vast majority of you had a slight idea.

I agree that when seen at a much more detailed point of view you can spot references here and there. But I really think that going as far as saying that one would rather listen I&W instead just because it's "so similar" to ADTOE doesn't really make that much sense.
And I still think DT12 pwns I&W.
(Which btw, some of you actually gave some nice arguments! It's awesome to see these opinions and thoughts, altho I really didn't expect it to spark SUCH controversy, I tho it was largely viewed as a good album around here)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 12:57:48 AM by Darkstarshades »
Jatruccyundessgini

Calvin6s

  • Guest
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #114 on: June 27, 2015, 02:38:18 AM »
Oh sure, it has intro, voice, lenghty instrumental and then voice again to the end, must be Metropolis! Except that Endless Sacrifice and Beyond This Life also match this description.

If you can't hear it, that's fine.  But don't assume we can't or how and when we figured it out.

Offline ?

  • Apparently the best username
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11742
  • Gender: Male
  • Less=Moore, Even Less=Wilson
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #115 on: June 27, 2015, 06:52:19 AM »
The ONLY reason why he didn't say something before Thiago did was because of the backlash he expected to face online by commenting on these "coincidences". So no, he "didn't "notice" it until after the post was made..." - he was well aware of them before.
...and he would've admitted that he had listened to a leak of the album. :P
I think the problem was that all the Thiago posts were insinuating that DT were a bunch of hacks
I don't get that impression from the original post: https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150771825130184
Quote
I have no idea why Dream Theater did this. Maybe because it was the album that “made them” in a time where it was a do or die for their careers, so it’s an inspiring model. Maybe because this represents a new beginning for them with Mike Mangini, as it was when James Labrie joined the band back then. Maybe to celebrate 20 years of the album that defined the Dream Theater sound? Maybe they just thought it would be a fun challenge to write unique songs over pre-established charts, much like a few fans did (myself included) when they held the Stream of Consciousness song-writing contest back in 2002-2003. Either way, I applaud them for having the balls to do it and for the overall quality the end result turned out to have. I know how hard it is to write a song based off of a pre-established arrangement and have it sound concise, genuine and inspired. The tendency is to have a fucked up Frankenstein instead of music, so props to DT for pulling it off.

Offline IdoSC

  • Posts: 901
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #116 on: June 27, 2015, 08:57:33 AM »
I'm in constant inner-conflict about which album I like more out of these two. Going song-by-song I might prefer DT12, but Images and Words always manages to put a huge smile on my face when listening through.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #117 on: June 27, 2015, 09:00:57 AM »

And I still think DT12 pwns I&W.
(Which btw, some of you actually gave some nice arguments! It's awesome to see these opinions and thoughts, altho I really didn't expect it to spark SUCH controversy, I tho it was largely viewed as a good album around here)

It can still be viewed as a good album, yet not as good as I&W.  I like DT12 seemingly more than most here, but I&W still spanks it.  :hat

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12791
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #118 on: June 27, 2015, 09:26:57 AM »
Most of you had no idea of the similarities until you read about it.

Well, yes.  But that is because Tiago posted it BEFORE THE ALBUM CAME OUT.  Hence, most of us read it before we had a chance to hear the album. 

But quite a few of the similarities are pretty up front and obvious.  True that many people WAY overstate them and/or reach for similarities that just aren't there.  But on a very nontechnical level, it is obvious, for example that:
-On the Backs of Angels shares many similar sounds and structural elements with Pull Me Under--so much so that I found it very distracting for the longest time, which, sadly, hampered me from appreciating what a terrific song OTBOA is in its own right for awhile.  The fact that it is the opening track enhances the similarity.
-The beginning of Lost Not Forgotten, as well as some other parts of the song, sound pretty similar to Under A Glass Moon.  Moreover, the similar parts appear in similar sections of the two songs.
-This one is more attenuated, but Outcry sounds similar in many respects to Metropolis and contains similar structural elements at similar points in the song.
-You already noted the similarities of FFH/BAI and WFS/LTL.

I think a lot of folks would have picked up on a lot of those just from listening to the album a few times.

And I still think DT12 pwns I&W.
(Which btw, some of you actually gave some nice arguments! It's awesome to see these opinions and thoughts, altho I really didn't expect it to spark SUCH controversy, I tho it was largely viewed as a good album around here)

I think "pwns" is too strong.  But, again, I generally agree.  I love I&W.  But I think DT12 is the stronger, more consistent album.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Darkstarshades

  • Posts: 1045
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #119 on: June 27, 2015, 09:59:29 AM »
Apologies for looking too harsh, Bosk.
The whole point of the post was to say that many people over-exaggerate the similarities. Anyway, DT12 feels more like the band knew what they were going to work on, unlike I&W, where they were still pretty uncertain of how they wanted to sound like. I understand this, they were still unknown before I&W came out, and had way less experience, which isn't the case with DT12
Jatruccyundessgini

Offline RJ86

  • Posts: 37
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #120 on: June 28, 2015, 01:02:22 PM »
Not sure I am ready to go there, myself. DT12 is a great album beginning to end. I can listen to every song and enjoy it. I&W had a couple of "Stinkers" on it.. Surrounded and Another Day. I used to make cassettes of I&W to listen to in my car and would always cut those 2 songs from it.
That being said, I think the more memorable (and arguably their better) songs have come from I&W. Learning to Live, Metropolis, Take the Time, Pull Me Under, Under a Glass Moon, and even Wait for Sleep. So I still have to say I&W is the better release.
But, as always, just my opinion. I do believe that DT12 is their best effort since SDOIT with ADTOE running a close second.

Offline IdoSC

  • Posts: 901
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #121 on: June 28, 2015, 01:37:32 PM »
Personally I'd much rather have I&W as the "inspiration corner" for every DT album than any other band or album.

Offline Setlist Scotty

  • Posts: 4474
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #122 on: June 28, 2015, 03:11:05 PM »
Personally I'd much rather have I&W as the "inspiration corner" for every DT album than any other band or album.
It obviously was for ADToE!   :P

But I know that BCaSL didn't have an inspiration corner, and I'd wager that the s/t album didn't either.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Mosh

  • For I have dined on honeydew!
  • Posts: 3825
  • Gender: Male
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #123 on: June 28, 2015, 06:53:43 PM »
I'd guess inspiration corner left with MP. They don't channel other bands as blatantly as they used to. Obvious exception being Rush but I'm sure JP knows the Rush discography just as well as his own.  :lol
New Animal Soup scifi space opera for fans of Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Iron Maiden: Chariots of the Gods

https://animalsoup.bandcamp.com/album/chariots-of-the-gods

Offline bl5150

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9132
  • Gender: Male
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #124 on: June 28, 2015, 07:20:24 PM »
Not sure I am ready to go there, myself. DT12 is a great album beginning to end. I can listen to every song and enjoy it. I&W had a couple of "Stinkers" on it.. Surrounded and Another Day. I used to make cassettes of I&W to listen to in my car and would always cut those 2 songs from it.
That being said, I think the more memorable (and arguably their better) songs have come from I&W. Learning to Live, Metropolis, Take the Time, Pull Me Under, Under a Glass Moon, and even Wait for Sleep. So I still have to say I&W is the better release.
But, as always, just my opinion. I do believe that DT12 is their best effort since SDOIT with ADTOE running a close second.

I agree with almost everything you have posted - even your "controversial" ones (ToT is one of the least favourite albums by anyone in my collection and not much changes until ADTOE)- but to me Surrounded and Another Day are just nice variations on a perfect album.
"I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle." - DLR

www.theguitardojo.com.au

Offline Setlist Scotty

  • Posts: 4474
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #125 on: June 28, 2015, 07:50:57 PM »
I'd guess inspiration corner left with MP.
Well, remember that BCaSL was with MP, and that was the first album that didn't have an inspiration corner. When I interviewed him in 2009 and asked him how things went without inspiration corner, he said it was a good thing. The impression being that going forward they would continue without an inspiration corner. So I wouldn't say that it left with MP. Besides, as I said before, IaW served as an obvious inspiration corner for ADToE.   :P
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline de_fromage

  • Posts: 69
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #126 on: June 28, 2015, 09:50:13 PM »
they were still pretty uncertain of how they wanted to sound like

So they made DT12 sound like Metallica and Rush
Ringo is one of my top 5 Beatles.

Offline Mosh

  • For I have dined on honeydew!
  • Posts: 3825
  • Gender: Male
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #127 on: June 29, 2015, 10:56:59 AM »
I'd guess inspiration corner left with MP.
Well, remember that BCaSL was with MP, and that was the first album that didn't have an inspiration corner. When I interviewed him in 2009 and asked him how things went without inspiration corner, he said it was a good thing. The impression being that going forward they would continue without an inspiration corner. So I wouldn't say that it left with MP. Besides, as I said before, IaW served as an obvious inspiration corner for ADToE.   :P
Interesting. Do we know if Mp brought it to other bands? Flying Colors at least sounded like it had an inspiration corner of some sort.
New Animal Soup scifi space opera for fans of Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Iron Maiden: Chariots of the Gods

https://animalsoup.bandcamp.com/album/chariots-of-the-gods

Offline Setlist Scotty

  • Posts: 4474
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #128 on: June 29, 2015, 12:56:50 PM »
I'd guess inspiration corner left with MP.
Well, remember that BCaSL was with MP, and that was the first album that didn't have an inspiration corner. When I interviewed him in 2009 and asked him how things went without inspiration corner, he said it was a good thing. The impression being that going forward they would continue without an inspiration corner. So I wouldn't say that it left with MP. Besides, as I said before, IaW served as an obvious inspiration corner for ADToE.   :P
Interesting. Do we know if Mp brought it to other bands? Flying Colors at least sounded like it had an inspiration corner of some sort.
That I don't know. But considering that all the guys in FC and most of the other projects he's involved with are already seasoned professionals, I doubt he would. He strikes me as the kind of person that just enjoys collaborating with others and seeing what develops from the blend of personalities. With DT, back in the days of WDaDU, the band probably wanted to try a lot of different ideas and so used various CDs as references for ideas, thus starting "inspiration corner". I'd wager it probably just became a habit to always have an inspiration corner from that time onward just to take the band in different directions.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Dublagent66

  • Devouring consciousness...
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9695
  • Gender: Male
  • ...Digesting power
Re: I think DT12 is better than Images & Words
« Reply #129 on: June 29, 2015, 01:15:35 PM »
they were still pretty uncertain of how they wanted to sound like

So they made DT12 sound like Metallica and Rush

Plus a bunch of similarities of previously released DT material thrown in for good measure.
"Two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
"There's not a pill you can take.  There's not a class you can go to.  Stupid is foreva."  -Ron White