Author Topic: Octavarium - 10 Years (Read 15591 times)

weezul · « **Reply #35 on:** June 09, 2015, 03:32:09 PM »

10 years... jeeez.... Octavarium got me into Dream Theater. I still think it is their best song! Gonna have to listen now

*raises glass*

KevShmev · « **Reply #36 on:** June 09, 2015, 04:02:34 PM »

To me, it's crazy to think that when this album came out, I thought it was a really nice bounce back after the largely disappointing Train of Thought, but as time went on, I realized that 8V wasn't that great except for the title track, and Train of Thought is an album I now consider not only good, but superior to its successor.

I still love the title track to pieces, though. Definitely a top 20 DT tune.

hefdaddy42 · « **Reply #37 on:** June 09, 2015, 04:31:33 PM »

Quote from: KevShmev on June 09, 2015, 04:02:34 PM

To me, it's crazy to think that when this album came out, I thought it was a really nice bounce back after the largely disappointing Train of Thought, but as time went on, I realized that 8V wasn't that great except for the title track, and Train of Thought is an album I now consider not only good, but superior to its successor.

I still love the title track to pieces, though. Definitely a top 20 DT tune.

All of this, for sure.

comment · « **Reply #38 on:** June 09, 2015, 05:29:32 PM »

Love this album! Happy 10th 8V! This is the first album of DTs my xgirlfriend would listen to; mainly I Walk Beside You she liked. I thought the album was refreshing. I still remember MP saying it was the album you could share and say "this is what Dream Theater is all about!"

bosk1 · « **Reply #39 on:** June 09, 2015, 05:56:36 PM »

Quote from: mrrct on June 09, 2015, 11:29:54 AM

As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.

Wow, I disagree with almost all of that. There is very little that is disjointed about the song. The parts really go together very well. From your descriptions, it almost seems like you don't really understand some of the sections. For instance, the "Portnoy shoutouts to his favorite bands" and "picking random words out of the air" section--that isn't what is going on there.

mrrct · « **Reply #40 on:** June 09, 2015, 07:16:53 PM »

Then enlighten me, Bosk.

jammindude · « **Reply #41 on:** June 09, 2015, 07:38:03 PM »

TAC · « **Reply #42 on:** June 09, 2015, 07:47:38 PM »

Wow. Just wow.

King Postwhore · « **Reply #43 on:** June 09, 2015, 07:52:27 PM »

JayOctavarium · « **Reply #44 on:** June 09, 2015, 11:12:02 PM »

I didn't discover Octavarium until I discovered Dream Theater (late '06/early '07)...

But when I did, it was when i was at the height of my obsession when it comes to albums and concepts and what not.

SO MANY NUGGETS

It was perfection in my eyes.

Now today it's not my favourite DT album, but there's nothing on there that disappoints (except MAYBE SS). I love just popping on headphones and immersing myself.

TheCountOfNYC · « **Reply #45 on:** June 11, 2015, 02:14:49 PM »

I just listened to this album all the way through for the first time in months and it definitely still holds up. Every song is great and unique, the production is beautiful especially compared to the next four albums, and it flows so well. It's almost flawless.

Kotowboy · « **Reply #46 on:** June 11, 2015, 03:53:36 PM »

Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on June 11, 2015, 02:14:49 PM

I just listened to this album all the way through for the first time in months and it definitely still holds up. Every song is great and unique, the production is beautiful especially compared to the next four albums, and it flows so well. It's almost flawless.

THANK you.

It's easily better than Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds in my opinion. i think if A Dramatic Turn Of Events had similar sonics - it would be up there too.

Madman Shepherd · « **Reply #47 on:** June 11, 2015, 09:31:25 PM »

Quote from: mrrct on June 09, 2015, 11:29:54 AM

I like but don't love the album, placing it middle of the pack in the DT discography. I consider "The Root of All Evil" to be one of the band's very best, but I think that there are too many ballads and mid-tempo songs on the album, although none of them are really terrible. "The Answer Lies Within" is wimpy, but if I'm in a particularly reflective mood it's okay. "These Walls," for a mid-tempo song, is good, especially on the Luna Park version. I actually like "I Walk Beside You," even though I agree with many people on this forum that it sounds like something U2 or Coldplay would write (that's okay, since I like much of both bands' material, especially the former). "Panic Attack" was fun to play on Rock Band with my friends years ago, but it's not a song I ever listen to on its own. "Never Enough" is a chore to get through. And "Sacrificed Sons" is wishy-washy, but I know what it meant to the band as native Long Islanders in the wake of 9/11, and it was something that they had to get out of their systems. I view it as the heavier, unplayed answer to Live's "Overcome," even though it was written four years later, with similar file footage of fire fighters and dust-covered survivors.

As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.

I disagree with a lot of what you said about the album but you are spot on with Full Circle. It is ridiculous to reference Wilson Phillips in a song just because its witty. I mean, on this same album Portnoy writes these awesome lyrics about losing control of himself due to alcoholism, LaBrie writes a very beautiful song questioning the humanity of people, Petrucci writes a thoughtful piece about trying to find inner strength to overcome obstacles, and Portnoy comes back at the end and references David Lee Roth, some Beatles songs, and a joke band the guys put together a few times?!?! WTF?

Scorpion · « **Reply #48 on:** June 12, 2015, 02:39:02 AM »

Quote from: bosk1 on June 09, 2015, 05:56:36 PM

Quote from: mrrct on June 09, 2015, 11:29:54 AM
As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.

Wow, I disagree with almost all of that. There is very little that is disjointed about the song. The parts really go together very well. From your descriptions, it almost seems like you don't really understand some of the sections. For instance, the "Portnoy shoutouts to his favorite bands" and "picking random words out of the air" section--that isn't what is going on there.

Somebody dislikes something that I like? Must be because he doesn't understand it, how could people possibly just have different tastes.

King Postwhore · « **Reply #49 on:** June 12, 2015, 06:45:08 AM »

When the majority like one song the minority could have the wrong opinion even though it it his or her own feeling. We are talking about a beloved song.

Frank · « **Reply #50 on:** June 12, 2015, 07:34:15 AM »

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 12, 2015, 06:45:08 AM

When the majority like one song the minority could have the wrong opinion even though it it his or her own feeling. We are talking about a beloved song.

Opinions can only be "wrong" if they are founded on principles that can be proven false. There is a difference between the logical concepts of "soundness" and "validity." Just because the majority believe A to be case will never, ever mean that A is actually the case, and it gets even murkier when we're talking about aesthetic opinions.

Bosk's approach to mrrct's stated opinion was a productive way to discuss the song, and if mrrct was interested, I'm sure Bosk would be willing to cite evidence and reasoning as to why he believes what he does. Then, if it can be proven that mrrct's opinion is founded on objectively incorrect assumptions, then and only then is his opinion "wrong." If Bosk and mrrct are actually referring to the same objectively correct assumptions and still disagree, neither one of them is wrong.

tldr; Calling the minority wrong just because they disagree with a majority opinion is tantamount to silencing and is anti-productive with the aims of a discussion forum.

For what it's worth, I agree with Bosk, although I understand why it's easy to think that section is ridiculous.

King Postwhore · « **Reply #51 on:** June 12, 2015, 07:40:04 AM »

When a movie gets high ratings, it means it's a damn good movie and those who didn't like it are in the minority and are most likely wrong. It's their opinion but when a movie or a song is beloved, maybe your opinion is wrong. I what you are saying. In fact, I don't like Rap and that is beloved but it is different when it comes to tastes. I bet there are a ton or rap songs that are masterpieces but it's not my cup of tea.

I won't say that a beloved rap album like "The Chronic" has it faults because the majority is in the right for that instance.

BlobVanDam · « **Reply #52 on:** June 12, 2015, 07:44:46 AM »

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 12, 2015, 07:40:04 AM

When a movie gets high ratings, it means it's a damn good movie and those who didn't like it are in the minority and are most likely wrong. It's their opinion but when a movie or a song is beloved, maybe your opinion is wrong. I what you are saying. In fact, I don't like Rap and that is beloved but it is different when it comes to tastes. I bet there are a ton or rap songs that are masterpieces but it's not my cup of tea.

I won't say that a beloved rap album like "The Chronic" has it faults because the majority is in the right for that instance.

No, just no. Just because an opinion is held by a majority doesn't make it objective or right. It just makes it a more widely held opinion.

Frank · « **Reply #53 on:** June 12, 2015, 07:48:00 AM »

Thank you, Blob.

Not to derail the discussion about Octavarium, but - I understand what you're saying as well, but I think language like "wrong" here isn't the best way to go about things. What makes a "damn good movie"? Would it be a movie like Seppuku, renowned for its dissonant soundtrack, sharp and cold back and white cinematography, and cynicism about so-called samurai honor? Or is it a movie like Kurosawa's Dreams, renowned for its upbeat and classical soundtrack, warm and beautiful color cinematography, and bittersweet optimism about the concept of honor? Or what about a movie like Black Rain, not very well known and not considered Imamura Shohei's best, but still sharing many of the same objective qualities as Seppuku?

Seppuku and Dreams are both renowned, but for nearly opposite reasons. "Good art" is such a complicated concept that I personally believe I'm not capable of truly comprehending such a vast notion. I only like what I like, and make no further claims.

(Apologies for the obscure Japanese film references. It's the easiest thing for me to talk about.

)

King Postwhore · « **Reply #54 on:** June 12, 2015, 07:48:40 AM »

If your telling me his thought process is correct on Octavarium then I'm telling you your are wrong also. I'm sorry but that is a masterpiece and 95% of the fans would say so. Most of the time the majority is right. It happens.

Hey, I have comments on music that I know I'm wrong about. I don't let it bother be because it's taste but minority in this case is right and he is wrong.

The end.

I know stubborn jerk.

King Postwhore · « **Reply #55 on:** June 12, 2015, 07:49:56 AM »

Quote from: Frank on June 12, 2015, 07:48:00 AM

Thank you, Blob.

Not to derail the discussion about Octavarium, but - I understand what you're saying as well, but I think language like "wrong" here isn't the best way to go about things. What makes a "damn good movie"? Would it be a movie like Seppuku, renowned for its dissonant soundtrack, sharp and cold back and white cinematography, and cynicism about so-called samurai honor? Or is it a movie like Kurosawa's Dreams, renowned for its upbeat and classical soundtrack, warm and beautiful color cinematography, and bittersweet optimism about the concept of honor? Or what about a movie like Black Rain, not very well known and not considered Imamura Shohei's best, but still sharing many of the same objective qualities as Seppuku?

All those movies are renowned, but for nearly opposite reasons. "Good art" is such a complicated concept that I personally believe I'm not capable of truly comprehending such a vast notion. I only like what I like, and make no further claims.

(Apologies for the obscure Japanese film references. It's the easiest thing for me to talk about. )

But they are beloved and the person who doesn't like the "artsy" movies can be wrong about how good these movies are because he or she are just not into it.

Frank · « **Reply #56 on:** June 12, 2015, 07:52:17 AM »

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 12, 2015, 07:49:56 AM

Quote from: Frank on June 12, 2015, 07:48:00 AM
Thank you, Blob.

Not to derail the discussion about Octavarium, but - I understand what you're saying as well, but I think language like "wrong" here isn't the best way to go about things. What makes a "damn good movie"? Would it be a movie like Seppuku, renowned for its dissonant soundtrack, sharp and cold back and white cinematography, and cynicism about so-called samurai honor? Or is it a movie like Kurosawa's Dreams, renowned for its upbeat and classical soundtrack, warm and beautiful color cinematography, and bittersweet optimism about the concept of honor? Or what about a movie like Black Rain, not very well known and not considered Imamura Shohei's best, but still sharing many of the same objective qualities as Seppuku?

All those movies are renowned, but for nearly opposite reasons. "Good art" is such a complicated concept that I personally believe I'm not capable of truly comprehending such a vast notion. I only like what I like, and make no further claims.

(Apologies for the obscure Japanese film references. It's the easiest thing for me to talk about. )

But they are beloved and the person who doesn't like the "artsy" movies can be wrong about how good these movies are because he or she are just not into it.

No, because it just means they don't like artsy movies. That's fine. Someone who doesn't like sweet food isn't "wrong." It just means they don't like it. Beautiful cinematography does not make a "good" movie. Nothing does. Everything is just opinion. You'd be wrong if you denied some objective fact about the movie - that's it.

Anyway, gotta go back to work, ha ha.

BlobVanDam · « **Reply #57 on:** June 12, 2015, 07:53:09 AM »

Quote from: kingshmegland on June 12, 2015, 07:48:40 AM

If your telling me his thought process is correct on Octavarium then I'm telling you your are wrong also. I'm sorry but that is a masterpiece and 95% of the fans would say so. Most of the time the majority is right. It happens.

Hey, I have comments on music that I know I'm wrong about. I don't let it bother be because it's taste but minority in this case is right and he is wrong.

The end.

I know stubborn jerk.

Hey, I absolutely agree that Octavarium is a masterpiece, but I'll always defend that art is entirely subjective, and no opinion is right or wrong, no matter how wrong I personally think it is.

King Postwhore · « **Reply #58 on:** June 12, 2015, 08:18:58 AM »

I get a kick when people get upset about objective. Were talking "LOTR" here of music. Not "The Room" of music.

I get the middle of the ground where it's 50/50 and it becomes subjective but when so many love it. You might be in the wrong that it's not a good song or a movie.

Scorpion · « **Reply #59 on:** June 12, 2015, 08:40:07 AM »

I actually find LOTR pretty boring, whereas The Room entertains me.

But of course that means that my opinion is wrong or something so I guess I'll just feel bad about myself and go cry in a corner, or whatever it is that you deem to be the objectively correct course of action.

Evermind · « **Reply #60 on:** June 12, 2015, 08:47:30 AM »

Here comes the good old objective vs. subjective debate again.

King Postwhore · « **Reply #61 on:** June 12, 2015, 08:50:17 AM »

Quote from: Scorpion on June 12, 2015, 08:40:07 AM

I actually find LOTR pretty boring, whereas The Room entertains me.

But of course that means that my opinion is wrong or something so I guess I'll just feel bad about myself and go cry in a corner, or whatever it is that you deem to be the objectively correct course of action.

Again you are wrong.

King Postwhore · « **Reply #62 on:** June 12, 2015, 08:54:43 AM »

I also have fun watching bad movies. But I know they are bad. While a great movie may not be your cup of tea.

I think we can all agree that LOTR is well made. You may not like it's style but it is well made.

Now, The Room is a poorly made movie but I can still watch it for the shits and giggles aspect of it. It's still poorly made.

Scorpion · « **Reply #63 on:** June 12, 2015, 08:56:38 AM »

Ok.

When I go to see a movie, there is one criterion by which I judge it, and one criterion only: was I entertained? Many other things play into that, certainly, but that's what it comes down to.

Now, Lord of the Rings. I find it well-done, superbly filmed and acted, but the story bores me to tears and I find the characterisation for the majority of the characters to be lacking depth. Therefore, even though I can appreciate the visuals and the effort that went into making the movie, it does not entertain me.

The Room, on the other hand, is batshit insane. It is disjointed, badly acted in places and there is not really all that much of a plot at all. However, this does not matter to me because watching The Room means that I will laugh, and I will laugh a lot. Therefore, it entertains me, and I prefer it over LotR.

Why is this way of looking at movies (and, by extension, at music) wrong?

King Postwhore · « **Reply #64 on:** June 12, 2015, 09:01:05 AM »

How you explained The Room is how that poster talked about Octavarium. We all know the room is just plain bad but you can enjoy it. Do you look at Octavarium as a poorly made song? I think not. there are many other DT songs I can say that about. That's my point. He is in the minority thinking it's a poorly crafted song. I think the majority think he is wrong. The majority loves the song. So I say he is wrong for saying that it's poorly structured. If he came out and just said I don't like the song, I'd get that but it is not a poorly crafted song.

I hope that makes more sense.

Hey! This comming from a guy that would watch Killer Clowns From Outer Space every week!

Scorpion · « **Reply #65 on:** June 12, 2015, 09:03:53 AM »

But what makes a song well-crafted and poorly-crafted is subjective too. Why does it suddenly cease to be opinions to you and become a matter of right and wrong the moment somebody says "I dislike this song because I find it poorly structured" instead of "I don't like it"?

Kotowboy · « **Reply #66 on:** June 12, 2015, 09:08:35 AM »

Quote from: Scorpion on June 12, 2015, 08:56:38 AM

When I go to see a movie, there is one criterion by which I judge it, and one criterion only: was I entertained? Many other things play into that, certainly, but that's what it comes down to.

Now, Lord of the Rings. I find it well-done, superbly filmed and acted, but the story bores me to tears.

Bertielee · « **Reply #67 on:** June 12, 2015, 09:18:21 AM »

8vm was the first DT album I skipped tracks on. Once TRoAE has passed, I go right away to Panic Attack. The 5 tracks I listen to are fairly good though. 8vm the song is fantastic, everything I could ask of a DT track.

B.Lee

King Postwhore · « **Reply #68 on:** June 12, 2015, 09:35:19 AM »

I don't think it's subjective at all. We can all tell when a movie was crafted well, average or poorly done. why is it so hard to tell? I don't think so at all.

bosk1 · « **Reply #69 on:** June 12, 2015, 09:36:56 AM »

Quote from: Scorpion on June 12, 2015, 02:39:02 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on June 09, 2015, 05:56:36 PM
Quote from: mrrct on June 09, 2015, 11:29:54 AM
As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.

Wow, I disagree with almost all of that. There is very little that is disjointed about the song. The parts really go together very well. From your descriptions, it almost seems like you don't really understand some of the sections. For instance, the "Portnoy shoutouts to his favorite bands" and "picking random words out of the air" section--that isn't what is going on there.

Somebody dislikes something that I like? Must be because he doesn't understand it, how could people possibly just have different tastes.

Well, sorry, but that's a really dumb thing to say that has nothing to do with my post. People are free to like or dislike whatever. That isn't the issue. The issue is with calling Octavarium "disjointed" and saying full circle is "pulling random words out of thin air." Both statements are incorrect. But that doesn't somehow limit his freedom to like or dislike the song as he chooses. Get over yourself.

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Author Topic: Octavarium - 10 Years (Read 15591 times)