Author Topic: Octavarium - 10 Years  (Read 15595 times)

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Offline RoeDent

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Octavarium - 10 Years
« on: June 07, 2015, 08:54:29 AM »
Today (June 7th) marks 10 years since the release of DT's 8th studio album, Octavarium. Reflections and thoughts on this milestone?

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2015, 08:59:44 AM »
Damn, has it really been that long? It seems like only yesterday we were experiencing the joy that was the Octavarium sub forum.

The last of their albums before moving to RR, their 20th aniversary, it feels like the end of that era, and is probably the last DT album I still consider really great.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2015, 09:21:05 AM »
It was an end of an era, definitely bookended by Score.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2015, 09:23:51 AM »
It was a grower for me.   When I first heard it, I liked it, but I remember distinctly having a conversation with Setlist Scotty where I said that I really liked it, but it felt like "DT by the numbers"...

But I think that was just me being a bit burnt out after being a full on fanboy for over 15 years non-stop.   I went through the same thing with Rush.    But Octavarium ended up being *the* album that reminded me of why I loved DT so much.    It was the culmination of everything they achieved to that point.    It is a very literal snapshot of every facet of Dream Theater....and tied together with a concept!    It has the epic moments, the poppy moments, the hooks, a touch of thrash, a touch of mellow, a touch of the dramatic, more 'nuggetz' than any other DT album by far, and topped off with their greatest epic ever....which on top of being a fantastic song in its own right, carries the added bonus of tying the entire concept together. 

This album is the single greatest representation of who Dream Theater is.   If someone wants to know what DT is all about, I immediately go for this album. 
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Offline RoeDent

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2015, 09:36:30 AM »
The title track was the song that got me hooked on DT. It was an incredible moment, especially hearing Razor's Edge for the first time. It ended up being my first DT album bought as well, along with SFAM.

I absolutely love the concept behind this album, the way each song is in the next minor key up the scale, with 5 interludes representing the 'black' keys.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 11:12:50 AM by RoeDent »

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2015, 09:47:11 AM »
Damn, has it really been that long? It seems like only yesterday we were experiencing the joy that was the Octavarium sub forum.

The last of their albums before moving to RR, their 20th aniversary, it feels like the end of that era, and is probably the last DT album I still consider really great.

i agree with that but I think that A Dramatic Turn Of Events was a good return to form - albeit without the stellar production.

Still my absolute favourite Dream Theater album by miles.  :metal :corn :corn happy 10th birthday Octavarium !!!

Offline Raise the Drum

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2015, 11:04:08 AM »
A looot of time!
I remember when this album came out, it was strangely popular here in Chile. You could hear them on radio stations that in other cases would never play DT. There was even a local tv series that used a lot of Octavarium songs in its soundtrack. I remember hearing TROAL, NE and Octavarium's intro.

Time has passed and this album still amazes me with each time I listen it.


Offline commanderbob

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2015, 11:25:49 AM »
I think it was this album that got me out of the habit of looking for/expecting a classic (to me) DT album experience. I figured that after that many years of greatness, it was just too much to expect. From this one on, I simply looked for 2-4 classic songs to add to the pantheon and a couple more good ones.

Oddly enough, DT13 was for me once again a classic album experience, so I'm not sure where my expectations should lie now LOL.

Offline Zook

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2015, 11:41:55 AM »
When I first heard this album I thought it was boring as hell. Eventually it grew on me, and now I quite like it.

Offline goo-goo

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2015, 11:52:12 AM »
Favorite song from Octavarium: These Walls. Great and catchy chrous, one of my fav JP solos (very few notes) and the lyrics are pretty strong as well.

When MP released a teaser, he played the intro to Never Enough. Was so pumped because it sounded so different from what DT had ever done. But overall, the song Never Enough was a disappointment, although it did grow on me over time. Octavarium the song, just doesn't do it for me. I like the Score version but other than that, I just didn't feel it with this one. This album would be perfect for me without Panic Attack and the title track but that would remove about 30 something minutes of DT music  :rollin

I consider this album in the middle of the pack in the DT catalogue.

Also, this was the last album recorded at the legendary studio "The Hit Factory" and was mixed by Michael Brauer, which was a departure from in the engineering department from Kevin Shirley as the mixing engineering and long time recorder engineer Doug Oberkircher.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 12:01:25 PM by goo-goo »

Offline Scorpion

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2015, 01:42:37 PM »
Probably my second-least favourite DT album, but it definitely has some awesome songs. These Walls, The Root of All Evil and Sacrificed Sons are all great. The others, not so much.

However, I will concede that it sounds stellar. I'm not usually one to notice production, unless it is extraordinarly good or bad, but the sound of Octavarium has always stood out to me - imo their finest-sounding album, along with FII. It's just a shame that the music isn't as good in my opinion.
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Offline A Drop of Water

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2015, 02:56:09 PM »
The sounds Rudess plays on this album are incredible. (These Walls, Never Enough, etc)  Portnoy's Drums sound is great and natural. The whole album is great. The intro to the song Octavarium is phenomenal. The live version of that song on Score is a great performance. It's got everything, continuum, modular synth, 12 string guitar.

Offline PolarizeMe

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2015, 07:20:21 PM »
It's definitely debatable whether or not it's their best album, but for me personally it's my favorite DT album but partially for a selfish sentimental reason as along with SFAM, I&W and the then recent ADTOE, were among the first DT albums I listened to when discovering the band almost 3 years ago. SFAM and Octavarium being the two that made me fall in love with the band. That said, I think that the songs range from great to pantheon-like status with the title track being one of my all time favorite songs both DT and in general.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2015, 06:38:05 AM »
Images and Words will always be my favorite DT album, if only for sentimental reasons (I first hopped on the DT bandwagon back in '92 upon hearing it in it's entirety for the first time), but Octavarium is very close.  I'm a melody guy, and while I'm not always keen on the things he says/does, I think James' voice is integral to the sound of DT, and so when he sings, I mean really sings, it is magic to me.

I don't particularly care to pull the melodies out from among the grunts and growls and metal vocals (which seemed like had to be done more and more starting with the next one).  I like SC and BC&SL a lot (more than most here, it seems) but Octavarium was the last truly epic, truly great from start to finish ALBUM.

(And seeing as "To Live Forever" is in my Top 10 DT songs of all time, it shouldn't surprise that I LOVE "I Walk Beside You", also in my top 10).

Offline emtee

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2015, 07:18:45 AM »
Progression...

-Loved the album when it came out and played the crap out of it. My daughter also loved parts of it so we got to share DT for the first time.
-Soon after the spins began I started thinking DT flew way too close to inspiration corner for my personal comfort. I love MP but I think
he was almost totally immersed with Muse at this point in time and it was really evident to me.
-Still love These Walls, Panic Attack and I Walk Beside You. I can pass on most of the rest of it. In any updated rankings this would be
3rd from the bottom for me.

Glad so many people really love it though. I thought it was a grand concept and executed well but as time passed I lost my initial
connection with this one.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2015, 08:30:10 AM »
For me, the title track is stellar, there are a couple of other good songs, and the rest of the album is mediocre at best and forgettable at worst. 

Overall, I'm not a huge fan of this album.  But the tour was awesome.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2015, 08:48:32 AM »
Octavarium is a fantastic live album.

Offline Lucien

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2015, 09:00:39 AM »
Oddly enough, DT13 was for me once again a classic album experience, so I'm not sure where my expectations should lie now LOL.

please tell us how is dt13







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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2015, 09:15:10 AM »
This was the last time DT did something truly amazing (the title track, of course).

Although the album is not as strong as Octavarium (the song), it still is one of the last times DT went out of its comfort zone and did something different sound-wise.

10 years seems like such a long time.  :sadpanda:
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Offline krands85

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2015, 11:14:50 AM »
This album was my introduction to the band and it'll always be a little special to me for that reason. It used to be my third favourite DT album, but it's dropped a little recently - probably 5th or 6th nowadays.

It suffers a little having 4 average (to me) tracks in These Walls, Never Enough, The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You. But the other 4 songs are all great - the title track is still my third favourite DT song and I'm still in awe of how they crafted such a brilliant piece of music.

Pretty good album sonically as well, better than anything they've done since in that regard.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2015, 12:08:11 PM »
(A copy of my post in the thread on MP's forum):


I usually list this at the bottom of the Labrie-era albums (WDADU will forever be last I'm afraid), so I gave it a listen on the way home today to see if anything has changed. And it's actually a much more enjoyable listen than I remember it being.
 
I think the main 'problem' for me was my hopes and expectations when it came out. I was in a metal phase and I loved their previous album, Train of Thought. Octavarium was a pretty big departure from the feel of that one.
 
But listening again, some thoughts:
 
The Root of All Evil: good opening rocker, some nice melodic nods to the title track to come. Not keen on Jordan's solo, but I rarely am when he's playing anything other than the piano.
 
The Answer Lies Within: probably my favourite on the album, but then I'm a sucker for simple piano ballads. Nice melodies.
 
These Walls: better than I remembered. Catchy tune.
 
I Walk Beside You: works very well live, if Score is anything to go by. Studio version nothing special, but nice enough, in particular the chorus.
 
Panic Attack: also better than I remembered, some nice work towards the end, very impressive guitar solos.
 
Never Enough: musically fine, but lyrically a bit annoying. Critics of the lyrics often get sternly reminded that "It's not about ALL fans, it's about a tiny section of fans who demand the earth!" That to me just makes it even more absurdly ironic. A song about valuing what you have and not just seeing only the negative...is aimed with vitriolic rage at a tiny section of an otherwise fiercely supportive and appreciative fanbase? Everything is indeed never enough! But anyway, nice music and great unison part at the end.

Sacrificed Sons: another song which was much better than I remembered. Kind of like a much more tasteful version of Presence of Enemies Part 2, with its slow build-up and long instrumental section. Probably 2nd favourite track on the album.
 
Octavarium: not my favourite of their epics (probably number 4, behind Count, Change and Theory). I love around 10 minutes of this piece, like another 5, and find myself a bit bored by the rest.

 
On the whole though, a very good album. The concept sounds very clever, although to a musical numbskull like me, who barely even knows (or cares) what a time signature is, it's lost. But what I hears, I likes. That it's last on my list of their albums isn't a criticism of Octavarium but a compliment to how strong their catalogue is.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2015, 12:22:59 PM »
This is my Images and Words and Panic Attack is my Pull Me Under. I first heard PA when playing Rock Band 2 and was completely blown away by it. I had never heard anything like it in my life. I bought the album and loved it although I never had time to listen to the title track. One day I finally did and that was the moment I became a true fan of the band. There's comes a few times where people have a life changing experience whether it be good or bad. Hearing the song Octavarium was one of those great life changing moments for me. While I didn't hear the album when it first came out, this is my first DT album and without it I wouldn't be the fanatic I am today. I have it ranked third (no amount of sentimentality can put something on top of IaW and SFaM) but it is by far the most important album to me and the one that means the most to me. It's funny because back when the rhythm games where at their peak (around when Rock Band 2 and Guitar Hero: World Tour were released), people used to use the insult of "Guitar Hero fan" or "Rock Band fan" which meant that you became a fan of an artist through hearing their music in a game or that you only knew the songs in the games. Well me hearing Panic Attack in a video game lead to Dream Theater becoming my favorite band. But that wouldn't have been possible without the release of Octavarium so happy birthday to one of the most amazing albums I have ever heard. Now hopefully on the next tour the band celebrates this album as well.
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2015, 02:49:25 PM »
Wow, has it already been 10 years of arguing whether or not it's a concept album, and then arguing what a concept album REALLY is?! :rollin

Seriously though, this is a great album and was the band's first new studio album after I became a fan, and BOY what an album to come in to! This was and has been a favorite of mine by the band and I just spun it earlier at work, actually, and it still sounds as good as I remember. It's got a bit of everything for DT's fans, and is a good reflection on what the band had done up to that point.

I remember going through the lyrics of the title track and picking out all the clever lyrics in the third part "Full Circle" and figuring out what they all meant. I remember being impressed at the amount of thought that went in to piecing together the concept, from the changing keys of the songs along the F-scale, to the fact that "Octavarium" has parts I-V and that it cycles back to TROAE, which has parts VI-VII, albeit for a different reason, but it just worked out so WELL! Everything fit together like a puzzle, and while it was the end of their prior contract before moving in with RR, it was a peak (especially in the sense that since SFAM, they had 6-7-8-7-6 tracks with this album being the literal peak) that was hard to top, and I think SC suffered a bit from having to follow up 8VM.

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2015, 04:34:34 PM »
For me, the title track is stellar, there are a couple of other good songs, and the rest of the album is mediocre at best and forgettable at worst. 

Overall, I'm not a huge fan of this album.  But the tour was awesome.

Octavarium is the only DT album I can EASILY listen to from beginning to end and

a.) not get bored or

b.) go - oh crap it's this song.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2015, 05:17:24 PM »
I do both of those things when listening to this album from beginning to end.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2015, 05:24:15 PM »
YOU GO GIRL.

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2015, 05:28:39 PM »
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2015, 10:39:33 PM »
Wow, has it already been 10 years of arguing whether or not it's a concept album, and then arguing what a concept album REALLY is?! :rollin

While we're discussing the "concept", I came up with the hypothesis a little while back that every song on the album quotes the title track in some way, but I still can't find any strong enough connection for These Walls and Sacrificed Sons. Every other songs seems to have some connection, some which I didn't even notice until relatively very recently.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2015, 03:36:55 AM »
That's neat-o . post what you did find !

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2015, 03:58:27 AM »
I just realized I forgot all about Never Enough (can you blame me). I'll have to check that one for connections too.

TROAE is an obvious one with the piano outro section, as is TALW with the strings melody quoting the same melody. The slightly less obvious ones are Panic Attack and I Walk Beside You, which I don't see mentioned much if at all. Both of them also use variations of that main melody section (the one that is introduced at 3:50 in Octavarium, since it has a few).

The second half of IWBY's chorus utilizes the chord progression and partial melody of the second half of the Octavarium melody, with the chord progression of 1, 6m, 6M, 4, which is unique in its use of both the major and minor 6th notes. The first part of the melody over that section ("through all that may come....."), is following the same basic descending line of 5 3M 2 1 that the Octavarium melody does, although it keeps to major rather than alternating to the minor variant (Octavarium plays both major and minor key variants of that basic 4 note melody in alternating bars).

Panic Attack also references this same section for its pre-chorus. The first time we hear the full 8 bar pre-chorus, each bar follows the basic chord progression of 1, 1, 1, 1 / 1, 6m, 6M (last bar is the fill so I can't establish a root note here), virtually identical to the chord progression used during the Medicate chorus, which is 1, 1, 1, 1 / 1, 6m, 6M, 4. The keyboard melody played over the pre-chorus also starts with the familiar line of 5 3m 2 1, but in this case sticking purely to the minor key variation rather than beginning with the major variant, and then varies the melody in different ways to Octavarium, but using the same general pattern.

That leaves These Walls, Never Enough and Sacrificed Sons that I haven't found any link in yet. Maybe there isn't one at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if DT made sure to include some subtle reference given how much effort was put into the overall package.
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Offline Voices

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2015, 04:20:20 AM »
That was when I started to dig into DT. It doesn't feel that all this time has passed already, cause I still feel the same way when I listen to the title track, These Walls and Panic Attack: Amazed  :hefdaddy

And Sacrificed Sons  :heart

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2015, 06:20:49 AM »
I'd like an interview with the band explaining the whole Octavarium concept and what was the germ of the idea - how they wrote each song with the theme in mind etc.

Did they write a couple of songs and realise they were in minor keys a tone apart and then try to write a song in every minor key for example ?

Why did they choose F as the root note ? Any particular reason ?

The 8th letter of the Alphabet is "H" - and "H" is the key of B in German notation. They could have based it around Bminor :P


Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2015, 06:27:36 AM »
I'd like an interview with the band explaining the whole Octavarium concept and what was the germ of the idea - how they wrote each song with the theme in mind etc.

Did they write a couple of songs and realise they were in minor keys a tone apart and then try to write a song in every minor key for example ?

Why did they choose F as the root note ? Any particular reason ?

The 8th letter of the Alphabet is "H" - and "H" is the key of B in German notation. They could have based it around Bminor :P



I think I recall an interview where they said it was in F simply because it continues on from ToT, and ITNOG happens to end on the F. I'd like to hear more about how the whole idea came together. It's not that hard to modulate a song to fit though.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2015, 06:49:48 AM »


I think I recall an interview where they said it was in F simply because it continues on from ToT, and ITNOG happens to end on the F. I'd like to hear more about how the whole idea came together. It's not that hard to modulate a song to fit though.

Yes; the last note of 6D is the first note of "As I Am" on ToT, and the last note of "In The Name of God" on ToT is the first note of "The Root Of All Evil" on O8 (and because of the cycle, the last note of O8 the song).  I seem to remember that one perk of the cycle was breaking that need to tie everything together (which had actually gone back to SFAM). 

Offline mrrct

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Re: Octavarium - 10 Years
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2015, 11:29:54 AM »
I like but don't love the album, placing it middle of the pack in the DT discography.  I consider "The Root of All Evil" to be one of the band's very best, but I think that there are too many ballads and mid-tempo songs on the album, although none of them are really terrible.  "The Answer Lies Within" is wimpy, but if I'm in a particularly reflective mood it's okay.  "These Walls," for a mid-tempo song, is good, especially on the Luna Park version.  I actually like "I Walk Beside You," even though I agree with many people on this forum that it sounds like something U2 or Coldplay would write (that's okay, since I like much of both bands' material, especially the former).  "Panic Attack" was fun to play on Rock Band with my friends years ago, but it's not a song I ever listen to on its own.  "Never Enough" is a chore to get through.  And "Sacrificed Sons" is wishy-washy, but I know what it meant to the band as native Long Islanders in the wake of 9/11, and it was something that they had to get out of their systems.  I view it as the heavier, unplayed answer to Live's "Overcome," even though it was written four years later, with similar file footage of fire fighters and dust-covered survivors.

As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess.  I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs.  It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material.  Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other.  I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge.  I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.