Regarding the Loudness War and DVDs and also LPs – need expert help please!

[Liveinthemoment]

Regarding DVDs:
Just wanted to first point out about ripping your audio from your DVDs – I use DVD audio extractor (has a 30 trial which doesn’t require you to sign up for it and gives you full use of it)
https://www.dvdae.com/download

1)   SCORE DVD – CDs – have a DR of 6 for the first song versus a DR of 10 if you rip the Audio from the DVD. So a big improvement there.
2)   I found only a PLUS ONE eg ENDLESS SACRIFICE of DR 8 versus 7 improvement over the CDs versus the DVD for LIVE AT BUDOKAN.
3)   LIVE SCENES FROM NEW YORK – CDs have a DR of 7 for Strange Déjà vu but the DR is 12 from the DVD so good there too.

From the Loudness War database:
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/album?artist=dream+theater

It seems not all of DTs DVDs and LPs are up – so I did not know the above until I did it myself.

Regarding LPs and expert help:
Also I wanted to know from you Vinyl Experts out there – is it worth buying an LP such as OCTAVARIUM and TRAIN OF THOUGHT and then paying some expert to rip it to flac?

I hate the Loudness War but am unsure if the ripping process will go well – if that makes sense?

I have all the HDTracks versions for DT’s roadrunner releases and consider them worthwhile.

While I hate the Loudness war I am not bothered by whether it is 24/96 recording or not as long as it is 320kps+.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

EDIT - I like Nightwish's ONCE CD but got a very big DR improvement by ripping the 5.1 DVD Audio Disc and then using the DSP - MATRIX MIXER in FOOBAR2000 to downmix from 5.1 to stereo. Wow so clear! Best result ever for me. Put in all zeros in the matrix other than diagonally a line of 1s from FL-FL down to TFC-TFC.

[Sacul]

I don't even have a vinyl player, but got the ToT rip. I don't know it was the vinyl, the player, or the ripping, but I thought it sounded a bit muddy, with some noise, crackles and a little crashed during the most intense parts. But there are a lot of factors to consider, so someone who already owns it could really tell you.

[BlobVanDam]

As rumborak discovered in the case of DT12, the HDTracks version does not appear to use a truly more dynamic master, but instead bypasses the limiting stage resulting in less clipping. Granted it does still sound a whole lot better than the CD, and is still worth it imo, but it's not really as much of a gain in dynamic range as the numbers alone would indicate, so don't get too caught up in the DR numbers as the be-all of the quality.
I expect the other DT HDTracks releases are the same (I only have the DT12 ones), possibly the DVDs too in the case of the stereo mixes. The 5.1 mixdowns as you've done with Nightwish would probably gain you more, although I've personally never been too happy with how they sound mixed down.

The LP's should be using more dynamic masters by design, but they were intended for vinyl, and I don't know how great they're going to sound digitally. Yes, it will be more dynamic, but as Sacul has mentioned, there are a lot of other factors to consider for sound quality. I haven't heard any of them firsthand though.

[rumborak]

Just like the HDTracks, I doubt that the vinyls are true remasters. It's a lot of work to remaster something. I suspect they ran some EQs over the signal to make it "warmer", and then put it on vinyl.

[Liveinthemoment]

I really appreciate your responses. I read them fully a few times.

It seems you have saved me from wasting money and effort so I thank you all very very much.

I did not expect any of these answers so really helpful

edit: for BlobVanDam - I have not been happy with other 5.1 downmixes either especially Anathema (album before last) but just that one, ONCE by NIGHTWISH, turned out great...for me at least

[me7]

Also keep in mind that dynamic range measurement tools aren't reliable for analog media. Seen here for an example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n-AE9dL5FG8

They should only be used to compare digital files.

[seasonsinthesky]

i don't think you'd get your dollar's worth by paying someone to rip the vinyls; most people probably wouldn't even check for clicks and get rid of table rumble. hopefully someday PBTHAL will get some DT vinyls and transfer them – i think he has one of the laser turntables, if i'm not mistaken, and he makes excessively perfect vinyl rips with it.

also, regarding surround downmixing: this is a bit of a fluff/cheating DR process. if you were to look at all 6 channels of, say, the Systematic Chaos surround mix, you'd see the front LR channels are just as blasted as the stereo mix on CD. it's the combining of the other channels on top that require the headroom boost – it's still just as compressed to hell.

note that the vinyl for Falling Into Infinity was made from the master tapes, as HK/LITS are completely separated in a way that is impossible with the CD segue. this means they're also likely from a source with a higher DR rating, since they are probably final mixes pre-mastering. i can't speak for any of the other vinyls, though i've listened to SFAM and it sounds great (and ends in a locked groove as it should!).

[jammindude]

Even though they are $15K, I'm surprised that *someone* out there in the world of prog doesn't own one of those awesome laser turntables.   And according to the specs, there is NOT a digital conversion.  They claim that the laser does the same thing as the stylus in that you are getting a purely analog sound. 

[rumborak]

Actually, with the laser turntables you end up with a worse signal (that you have to clean up digitally) than with a plain physical one. As an example, a weighted stylus in the groove doesn't give a shit about a speck ofbdirt in the groove. Its inertia "filters" it out. The laser beam, having no mass, will take that dust speck as a raise in the groove, which means adding noise. That has to be filtered out again.

[Liveinthemoment]

Far out!

I read all the new posts a few times and watched the youtube video (which was awesome) and have really learned a lot.

There are a lot of experts on this forum 

I really appreciate the help, thank you all   

By the way with regards to the youtube video - I was wondering if there might be a pattern you can see from the sound wave graph things? It looks on the vinyl that the peaks and troughs are kind of uniform in terms of their height and distance between them (relatively) where they are brick-walled. I mean there is little spikiness as opposed to this one below - or is that idea completely off base?
https://brianstagg.co.uk/p_t_a_clipressed/

[chaossystem]

Regarding DVDs:
Just wanted to first point out about ripping your audio from your DVDs – I use DVD audio extractor (has a 30 trial which doesn’t require you to sign up for it and gives you full use of it)
https://www.dvdae.com/download

1)   SCORE DVD – CDs – have a DR of 6 for the first song versus a DR of 10 if you rip the Audio from the DVD. So a big improvement there.
2)   I found only a PLUS ONE eg ENDLESS SACRIFICE of DR 8 versus 7 improvement over the CDs versus the DVD for LIVE AT BUDOKAN.
3)   LIVE SCENES FROM NEW YORK – CDs have a DR of 7 for Strange Déjà vu but the DR is 12 from the DVD so good there too.

From the Loudness War database:
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/album?artist=dream+theater

It seems not all of DTs DVDs and LPs are up – so I did not know the above until I did it myself.

Regarding LPs and expert help:
Also I wanted to know from you Vinyl Experts out there – is it worth buying an LP such as OCTAVARIUM and TRAIN OF THOUGHT and then paying some expert to rip it to flac?

I hate the Loudness War but am unsure if the ripping process will go well – if that makes sense?

I have all the HDTracks versions for DT’s roadrunner releases and consider them worthwhile.

While I hate the Loudness war I am not bothered by whether it is 24/96 recording or not as long as it is 320kps+.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

EDIT - I like Nightwish's ONCE CD but got a very big DR improvement by ripping the 5.1 DVD Audio Disc and then using the DSP - MATRIX MIXER in FOOBAR2000 to downmix from 5.1 to stereo. Wow so clear! Best result ever for me. Put in all zeros in the matrix other than diagonally a line of 1s from FL-FL down to TFC-TFC.

I'm not exactly sure how to word this question, but if you use this thing, will it convert the songs on the DVD to a "regular CD" format?

In other words, can you separate the songs and mix them with others, like you would when creating a "mix CD," such as with Windows Media Player?

An example might be if I wanted to take some songs from each of Dream theater's DVD concerts and mix them on a regular CD to create a kind of "best of."

[Liveinthemoment]

It separates the songs into individual files. I choose to rip to FLAC format but you can rip to any format you like.

You could then use a CD burning program to make regular CDs if you wish.

All very easy.

[chaossystem]

Thank you.

That sounds EXACTLY like what I'm looking for.

[showdonttell]

For vinyl, it really all depends on what the source is. Personally, I see little point in getting a vinyl record of an album that was done all digitally. Now, something like Falling Into Infinity would garner some interest, seeing as it was done all with analogue tapes. In any case, vinyl still has its limitations, (I can deal with a few clicks and pops here and there, but it's the end-of-side distortion that gets me), and I prefer the CD pressing of an album 95% of the time. I do own a turntable, though, and enjoy listening to my records a lot.

As an aside, I should mention that before Rush released the remix/remaster of Vapor Trails, I was listening to a vinyl rip of it, and it did sound way better than the CD. I reckon it had to have been sourced from the same masters as the CD, though the CD suffered from so much clipping, and sometimes brightness, that it was pretty much unlistenable. The vinyl rip alleviated these harsh-sounding chopped-off peaks, and did sound a little bit warmer. It was certainly preferable to the CD version.

[ytserush]

For vinyl, it really all depends on what the source is. Personally, I see little point in getting a vinyl record of an album that was done all digitally. Now, something like Falling Into Infinity would garner some interest, seeing as it was done all with analogue tapes. In any case, vinyl still has its limitations, (I can deal with a few clicks and pops here and there, but it's the end-of-side distortion that gets me), and I prefer the CD pressing of an album 95% of the time. I do own a turntable, though, and enjoy listening to my records a lot.

As an aside, I should mention that before Rush released the remix/remaster of Vapor Trails, I was listening to a vinyl rip of it, and it did sound way better than the CD. I reckon it had to have been sourced from the same masters as the CD, though the CD suffered from so much clipping, and sometimes brightness, that it was pretty much unlistenable. The vinyl rip alleviated these harsh-sounding chopped-off peaks, and did sound a little bit warmer. It was certainly preferable to the CD version.

The original Vapor Trails vinyl is a slight improvement as is the original Japanese Vapor Trails CD.

At least they seem to be for me.