Author Topic: water  (Read 1884 times)

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Offline Calvin6s

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water
« on: April 01, 2015, 03:40:40 PM »
..
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 06:26:11 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Chino

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2015, 05:51:51 PM »
I am 100% in favor of this.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2015, 07:24:48 PM »
I'm not sure how he has much choice.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2015, 06:23:43 AM »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline Stadler

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2015, 06:39:08 AM »
Atlanta was doing this when I lived there (1998-2003).

Offline Chino

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 06:56:30 AM »
California has 3000 golf courses that require 250,000+ gallons of water per day each.

Offline TempusVox

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 07:30:55 AM »
For decades now the scientific community has warned them about this, and it went ignored. California has over 3,400 or so miles of tidal coastline and yet never embraced desalination as a viable option. A technology developed ironically in California in the 50's. Instead the problem was pushed on down the road.

They opted instead to rape and destroy and dam the ecosystem of the Colorado river.

People use the excuse that desal is too costly from an energy perspective. But not when you use nuclear to supply the electrical energy needed. And newer techiques reduce to a manageable level the environmental impact of the water returned to the sea. Other countries make it work; but California would rather make excuses.

Now there are more than 15 communities who will be out of water in the next 9-12 months. And they're already talking about mandatory evacuations. A mass migration is not beyond the realm of possibility.

What boggles my mind is Lake Tahoe contains enough water to supply everyone in the U.S. with 50 gallons of water everyday for the next 5 years.

And California still wrings its hands.
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Offline Chino

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2015, 07:45:35 AM »
I forsee my house's property value increase greatly over the next 10 years. I expect a flood of people from the west wanting to move east (assuming our winters don't continue to get worse, which they might).

I understand desalination is expensive as hell, and even more so when you have to preserve the environment in the process, but too fucking bad. Make it work. Halt the progress of that $10billion high speed train and reallocate your resources to desalination. Figure out how to get water to your citizens. Not to mention, this drought won't stop in Cali. It will spread to the surrounding states. California has an opportunity to make a product that they could sell to its neighbors in the years too come. 

For decades now the scientific community has warned them about this

No they didn't. They were just pushing their stupid liberal agenda in an attempt to gain power and control the masses.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2015, 08:07:23 AM »
For decades now the scientific community has warned them about this, and it went ignored.
Yes, but the free market will solve it.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2015, 08:11:03 AM »
For decades now the scientific community has warned them about this, and it went ignored.
Yes, but the free market will solve it.
As I understand it the free market is investing in the desal plants that are upcoming.

Calvin: a friend and I discussed building homes with graywater pipes, but wouldn't that require an overhaul to the citywide infrastructure? It absolutely needs to be done, but you're essentially talking about adding new water mains everywhere.
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Offline Chino

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2015, 08:13:41 AM »
For decades now the scientific community has warned them about this, and it went ignored.
Yes, but the free market will solve it.
As I understand it the free market is investing in the desal plants that are upcoming.

Calvin: a friend and I discussed building homes with graywater pipes, but wouldn't that require an overhaul to the citywide infrastructure? It absolutely needs to be done, but you're essentially talking about adding new water mains everywhere.

Yeah. It's one thing to change building codes for all new structures, but the infrastructure currently in place is where the real barrier is.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2015, 08:23:21 AM »
For decades now the scientific community has warned them about this, and it went ignored.
Yes, but the free market will solve it.
As I understand it the free market is investing in the desal plants that are upcoming.
Yeah, they are now.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2015, 10:45:47 AM »
People use the excuse that desal is too costly from an energy perspective. But not when you use nuclear to supply the electrical energy needed. And newer techiques reduce to a manageable level the environmental impact of the water returned to the sea. Other countries make it work; but California would rather make excuses.

In the US circa 2015, your little throwaway comment "not when you use nuclear..." is the equivalent of saying "not when you do it on Mars...".   I was involved not long ago in a proposal to use "packaged nuclear" (small, mobile, efficient, safe reactors) at each major military installation as a way of ensuring the security of each base, and to reduce demand against the national grid (in fact, these would work as micro-grids, and would ultimately, likely, contribute power back to the main grid, not the other way around).   You would have thought that the proposal involved bestiality the way it was rejected out of hand.  And this is the MILITARY, not even the general public (though one of the grounds was community relations).

I forsee my house's property value increase greatly over the next 10 years. I expect a flood of people from the west wanting to move east (assuming our winters don't continue to get worse, which they might).
 

There will be a flood, but it won't be to Connecticut, sorry to say.  Dannel is handling that for us, no problem.  ;)   Now, if you had property in Charlotte or Greenville, you might be on to something.

Offline Stadler

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2015, 10:52:17 AM »
No they didn't. They were just pushing their stupid liberal agenda in an attempt to gain power and control the masses.

You're funny.  Except you're not, because de facto, that IS what was happening at least to a lesser degree, much like the even more polarizing environmental issue related to this (not going to say it out loud).   Like many social issues where each side has their agenda, it has become impossible to discuss the basic facts without being tied (rightly or wrongly) to an agenda.

The problem is simple:  if the scientists just made their observations, things WOULD change.  As I noted above, they did in Atlanta over ten years ago.   But many so-called 'scientific observations' are invariably tied to some specific actual recommendation that IS exactly what you put in green above.   

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2015, 12:07:37 PM »
You don't think that scientists should propose solutions to problems?
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Offline Chino

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2015, 12:23:40 PM »
No they didn't. They were just pushing their stupid liberal agenda in an attempt to gain power and control the masses.

You're funny.  Except you're not, because de facto, that IS what was happening at least to a lesser degree, much like the even more polarizing environmental issue related to this (not going to say it out loud).   Like many social issues where each side has their agenda, it has become impossible to discuss the basic facts without being tied (rightly or wrongly) to an agenda.

The problem is simple:  if the scientists just made their observations, things WOULD change.  As I noted above, they did in Atlanta over ten years ago.   But many so-called 'scientific observations' are invariably tied to some specific actual recommendation that IS exactly what you put in green above.

No. Science is science. It's the discovery of truths, the determining of results, and finding solutions to problems. The only reason it's even associated with an agenda is because politicians have turned science into a political talking points as to not upset their donors.

It's really hot outside for long periods of time. A scientist hypothesizes that could be a problem in the years to come, most likely a drought out west. Scientist looks at data and predicts what adverse affects might come from being too hot. Scientists state that we will run out of water in some areas. Water starts running out in some areas. Hypothesis is looking accurate. Scientists cross references his/her findings against those of other scientists. The other scientists' data results in the same conclusions. Hypothesis appears stronger. Science boards advise that areas running out of water should look to reduce water useage. AGENDA! AGENDA!! AGENDA!!!


No they didn't. They were just pushing their stupid liberal agenda in an attempt to gain power and control the masses.

The problem is simple:  if the scientists just made their observations, things WOULD change. 

Umm.. what?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 01:10:54 PM by Chino »

Offline cramx3

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2015, 12:39:14 PM »
Flying over LA recently, I noticed how all of the grass is brownish and then the bright green spots were golf courses.  I've spent about 3 months in LA over the past year or so and it only rained a couple times.  The state needs water badly, so yea, if putting mandatory restrictions will help, then Im for it.

Offline bosk1

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2015, 12:48:36 PM »
The state actually has a pretty robust reclamation program.  The problem is, it was designed for the population needs of several decades ago.  Another problem is, S. Cal. gets a LOT of its water from N. Cal., which is fine in years of plenty.  But in drought years, it creates havoc.  Yet another problem is, while N. Cal. sends a lot of its water to S. Cal. and some of the dry neighboring states, some of our neighboring states up north that typically have an abundance of water are a bit less generous. 

N. Cal. is prone to droughts.  That is the way it is, and that is the way it always will be.  But despite that, the water problems should not be that difficult to solve.  But as is the unfortunate norm, political agendas often get in the way of real progress, especially progress for the long term.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2015, 01:28:35 PM »
You don't think that scientists should propose solutions to problems?

Not political ones, no.  Scientific ones, sure, that is their bailiwick.   Not economic, legal, or political solutions.  Let them tell "us" what has to change from a scientific or physical perspective, and let people who's job it is to fight out the politics to do so.

Brownfields are a fantastic example.   When it came time to start cleaning up dirty properties, the initial approach was to use government to punish those big bad polluters, and as a result we got a typically over-regulated industry populated by more lawyers than John Petrucci has guitar picks.  I know, because I initially went to law school for that very reason.  And companies sat on contaminated properties - good, relatively clean, potentially productive properties - because the "solution" was a typical "gotta get the bad guy!!" approach to the sky falling in.   Fast forward over twenty years, and initiatives were put in place to let commerce take a role in moving property - i.e. still having to clean to acceptable standards, but with the ability to build cleanup costs into the deal, and the ability to shift risk and liability where it made sense and was appropriate - and all of a sudden good, profitable land that could be used by communities all over the US was put back into use. 

No agenda on the part of science; no "contamination tax", no "putting a price on contamination", etc. etc. (insert "carbon" for "contamination" if you don't see where I am going with this).  Define what is "contaminated", put reasonable scientifically based standards into play that could get property "clean" (where the technology supported it) and let the people and lawmakers and companies and advocates hash it out. 

Offline Chino

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2015, 01:29:25 PM »
There comes a time when you have to stop calling something a political agenda and address it as a legitimate emergency.








Offline Stadler

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2015, 01:35:43 PM »
No they didn't. They were just pushing their stupid liberal agenda in an attempt to gain power and control the masses.

You're funny.  Except you're not, because de facto, that IS what was happening at least to a lesser degree, much like the even more polarizing environmental issue related to this (not going to say it out loud).   Like many social issues where each side has their agenda, it has become impossible to discuss the basic facts without being tied (rightly or wrongly) to an agenda.

The problem is simple:  if the scientists just made their observations, things WOULD change.  As I noted above, they did in Atlanta over ten years ago.   But many so-called 'scientific observations' are invariably tied to some specific actual recommendation that IS exactly what you put in green above.

No. Science is science. It's the discovery of truths, the determining of results, and finding solutions to problems. The only reason it's even associated with an agenda is because politicians have turned science into a political talking points as to not upset their donors.

It's really hot outside for long periods of time. A scientist hypothesizes that could be a problem in the years to come, most likely a drought out west. Scientist looks at data and predicts what adverse affects might come from being too hot. Scientists state that we will run out of water in some areas. Water starts running out in some areas. Hypothesis is looking accurate. Scientists cross references his/her findings against those of other scientists. The other scientists' data results in the same conclusions. Hypothesis appears stronger. Science boards advise that areas running out of water should look to reduce water useage. AGENDA! AGENDA!! AGENDA!!!

If only, Chino, if only.  I would accept your definition of "science" in a heartbeat and we wouldn't be having this conversation.   And I agree with you on the "politicians" contributing to the problem, but science isn't helping it's cause any, and while your sarcasm is also duly noted, it isn't helping any.  Why did the science boards not advise bringing in more water, whether it is via desal, or piping, or whatever Willy Wonka contraption they can come up with?  Why "reduce water usage"?   That's what I mean. Propose solutions, but when you narrow into one over others and it is for ANY reason other than pure science, you are by definition in your sarcasm zone.   

I'm not saying any of this is absolute, or even right.   But someone asked (implicitly, through green text) why this was so complicated, and I'm trying to tell you.     


Quote
No they didn't. They were just pushing their stupid liberal agenda in an attempt to gain power and control the masses.

The problem is simple:  if the scientists just made their observations, things WOULD change. 

Umm.. what?

Umm.. see above.   What I mean is (and I secretly think you know this, you're a smart guy) is that if the scientists stick to the science, we have a chance.  The problem for the advocates is if you tie the agenda-based solution to the science, it seems to add credibility to the solution.  That's just good debate skills.  But the problem for the people you have to convince is if you tie the agenda-based solution to the science, they have to appear to reject the science in order to reject the solution. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2015, 01:40:02 PM »
There comes a time when you have to stop calling something a political agenda and address it as a legitimate emergency.


There comes a time when you have to understand what is being said in the context of the discussion.  I am not now and never have doubted the legitimacy of the emergency.  As I said, this all happened 15 years ago in Atlanta.  Same kind of pictures.   In fact, in Lake Lanier in Buford, they even found a small town that was previously underwater.  I'm not arguing with you, and I'm not saying you're wrong.   I'm trying to explain why it might have gotten to this point and what could be done to avoid it in the future.  In my (somewhat limited) experience in California, you can't fart without someone making a political issue out of it, including the supposedly neutral scientists.  The emergency is the emergency; it's how it gets addressed that I am talking about.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2015, 01:45:23 PM »
Don't the scientists have an obligation to point out if the solution is so neutered by political agendas (which I think we can all expect at this point) to tell us "no, from a purely scientific point of view, the research, statistics and models suggest that's fucking bollocks!" Hell, don't they have some place to offer up suggestions for what they think is the best way to move forward? Seems to me is that some people think their suggestion are gospel and others think they suck, and that is the problem. This honestly sounds more like a political problem to me.
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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2015, 01:52:28 PM »
No they didn't. They were just pushing their stupid liberal agenda in an attempt to gain power and control the masses.

You're funny.  Except you're not, because de facto, that IS what was happening at least to a lesser degree, much like the even more polarizing environmental issue related to this (not going to say it out loud).   Like many social issues where each side has their agenda, it has become impossible to discuss the basic facts without being tied (rightly or wrongly) to an agenda.



You might like to check this out.


I am absolutely fascinated by this social phenomenon.  The article does a good job of explaining why Republicans won't admit that water is wet until they're drowning.




Offline El Barto

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2015, 02:06:58 PM »
Chino: If you look at Lake Oroville on Google Earth you'll see that it has done this several times before. It was just as bad in 08 and filled up nicely for those pretty "before" pictures in '11. This drought is bad and seems a ways from letting up, but the lake did pick up 40' after some good rains before Christmas and it'll get some nice fill from snow runoff pretty soon. It'd take annual records to fill it this year, but it should make progress.

I'm not disputing a very real problem, but I wouldn't use that lake and it's current condition for the dramatic value it has at face value. Like Bosk said, droughts happen; always have and always will.

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Offline Chino

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2015, 02:12:38 PM »
No they didn't. They were just pushing their stupid liberal agenda in an attempt to gain power and control the masses.

You're funny.  Except you're not, because de facto, that IS what was happening at least to a lesser degree, much like the even more polarizing environmental issue related to this (not going to say it out loud).   Like many social issues where each side has their agenda, it has become impossible to discuss the basic facts without being tied (rightly or wrongly) to an agenda.

The problem is simple:  if the scientists just made their observations, things WOULD change.  As I noted above, they did in Atlanta over ten years ago.   But many so-called 'scientific observations' are invariably tied to some specific actual recommendation that IS exactly what you put in green above.

No. Science is science. It's the discovery of truths, the determining of results, and finding solutions to problems. The only reason it's even associated with an agenda is because politicians have turned science into a political talking points as to not upset their donors.

It's really hot outside for long periods of time. A scientist hypothesizes that could be a problem in the years to come, most likely a drought out west. Scientist looks at data and predicts what adverse affects might come from being too hot. Scientists state that we will run out of water in some areas. Water starts running out in some areas. Hypothesis is looking accurate. Scientists cross references his/her findings against those of other scientists. The other scientists' data results in the same conclusions. Hypothesis appears stronger. Science boards advise that areas running out of water should look to reduce water useage. AGENDA! AGENDA!! AGENDA!!!

If only, Chino, if only.  I would accept your definition of "science" in a heartbeat and we wouldn't be having this conversation.   And I agree with you on the "politicians" contributing to the problem, but science isn't helping it's cause any, and while your sarcasm is also duly noted, it isn't helping any.  Why did the science boards not advise bringing in more water, whether it is via desal, or piping, or whatever Willy Wonka contraption they can come up with?  Why "reduce water usage"?   That's what I mean. Propose solutions, but when you narrow into one over others and it is for ANY reason other than pure science, you are by definition in your sarcasm zone.   


That'd be like asking why don't scientists figure out a way to get more vaccines to Africa. That's not the scientists' job. They are responsible for researching and perfecting the vaccines. They identify problems and through the scientific method prove that their predictions and assumptions are correct beyond reasonable doubt. It is up to industries and/or the government to take that information and come up with a solution/distribution. They suggest "reduce water usage" because that's something that can at least delay worst case scenarios in the short term. Perhaps a long enough period of time for governoment officials to pull their heads out of their asses.

Scientists have offered solutions. They have the technology to desalinate the water, but that's too expensive and would require outside funding. I'm sure engineers could pipe water in from somewhere else that has it, but that would be too expensive and would require outside funding. See what I'm getting at?

The scientists are doing their job, and they are doing it well. The real problem is that we have law makers like James Inhofe who thinks snow in DC is proof that the earth isn't getting warmer and is quoted saying "My point is, God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous.”. For fucks sake.

Offline bosk1

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2015, 02:21:25 PM »
Chino: If you look at Lake Oroville on Google Earth you'll see that it has done this several times before. It was just as bad in 08 and filled up nicely for those pretty "before" pictures in '11. This drought is bad and seems a ways from letting up, but the lake did pick up 40' after some good rains before Christmas and it'll get some nice fill from snow runoff pretty soon. It'd take annual records to fill it this year, but it should make progress.

I'm not disputing a very real problem, but I wouldn't use that lake and it's current condition for the dramatic value it has at face value. Like Bosk said, droughts happen; always have and always will.

39°32′14″N 121°29′00″W

Yeah, I live literally 5 minutes from where some of the pics of one of the other lakes were shot from, and it is made to do that.  Even though it has not been this low in decades, it is fine.  It is a manmade lake that basically exists as part of the reclamation project.  The dam keeps the lake full and lets water out at a measured rate to ensure that the river below has a constant flow, rather than all the runoff just running out to sea.  This helps the fish populations and other things.  There is still MORE than enough water in those lakes to do what they were designed to do, so it is not quite the "emergency" that the scary pictures may seem to imply.  As has been said, that does not mean there isn't a problem.  But overreaction and using scary images to try to manipulate behavior is not part of any real solution.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2015, 03:12:44 PM »
Chino: If you look at Lake Oroville on Google Earth you'll see that it has done this several times before. It was just as bad in 08 and filled up nicely for those pretty "before" pictures in '11. This drought is bad and seems a ways from letting up, but the lake did pick up 40' after some good rains before Christmas and it'll get some nice fill from snow runoff pretty soon. It'd take annual records to fill it this year, but it should make progress.

I'm not disputing a very real problem, but I wouldn't use that lake and it's current condition for the dramatic value it has at face value. Like Bosk said, droughts happen; always have and always will.

39°32′14″N 121°29′00″W

Yeah, I live literally 5 minutes from where some of the pics of one of the other lakes were shot from, and it is made to do that.  Even though it has not been this low in decades, it is fine.  It is a manmade lake that basically exists as part of the reclamation project.  The dam keeps the lake full and lets water out at a measured rate to ensure that the river below has a constant flow, rather than all the runoff just running out to sea.  This helps the fish populations and other things.  There is still MORE than enough water in those lakes to do what they were designed to do, so it is not quite the "emergency" that the scary pictures may seem to imply.  As has been said, that does not mean there isn't a problem.  But overreaction and using scary images to try to manipulate behavior is not part of any real solution.
While Oroville is certainly dry, Folsom doesn't look to terribly bad. And if that's the one you live near to, Last Feb/Mar must have had you building an ark and collecting animals last year. That lake gained a lot of ground in a short amount of time.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2015, 03:45:55 PM »
While Oroville is certainly dry, Folsom doesn't look to terribly bad. And if that's the one you live near to, Last Feb/Mar must have had you building an ark and collecting animals last year. That lake gained a lot of ground in a short amount of time.

It's bad.  But we aren't crying "emergency" either.  Last year was pretty dry too.  But the American River comes down from Tahoe, basically, and there are a few dams along the way.  BOR and the state agencies have the water flow down to a science so that the lakes never get too full and the rivers keep flowing.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2015, 10:34:19 AM »
Well, since Title III of the ADA has turned into an unmitigated mess, that is about the poorest example you could have come up with.  :lol
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline El Barto

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2015, 10:51:12 AM »
Calvin, you raise some good points about construction being handled on the construction side. However, the point still remains that there are infrastructure requirements that will have to be done on a civic level (in essence a parallel water system) that home builders won't be handling. This is just a hunch, but I suspect that if you require all new home construction to include white and gray plumbing for a plan that the government might or might not get around to there's going to be a whole helluva lot of hollering. Moreover, I think we can take a pretty reasonable guess as to which side of the political divide the hollering will come from.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2015, 12:51:08 PM »
I realize that distinction, but that is not important to the point you raised.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline El Barto

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2015, 01:27:30 PM »
That still doesn't address how the water gets from the reclamation plant to the development. Nor does it address the millions of preexisting homes. Take some guy in Huntington Park. Even if he needs a permit to build a new front porch, and then gets ramped into adding gray water pipes, how does he get the water? Who pays for running parallel pipes into HP?

I want to be clear I'm not arguing with you. I agree with you that this is a logical step and should have been started years ago. I'm just saying that it's likely to be an impossibly hard sell now, just as it would have been 30 years ago. It's also going to be monumentally expensive, even if the end of the line is already built and paid for. That is, after all, the cheap part of the deal since it's happening in conjunction with the initial construction.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2015, 06:30:33 PM »
Don't the scientists have an obligation to point out if the solution is so neutered by political agendas (which I think we can all expect at this point) to tell us "no, from a purely scientific point of view, the research, statistics and models suggest that's fucking bollocks!" Hell, don't they have some place to offer up suggestions for what they think is the best way to move forward? Seems to me is that some people think their suggestion are gospel and others think they suck, and that is the problem. This honestly sounds more like a political problem to me.

I think what I'm saying is, the science and the politics have to be separated.   As an example, if you asked a doctor, a priest, and a politician when a fetus was "viable" you'd get three different answers.  The doctor's is the only one that matters.   If you asked when an abortion should be allowed for a woman, still three different answers (possibly), but the doctors is not the only one that matters.  If the water is low, scientists can acknowledge that, and give the steps - all the practical, reasonable steps - to increase the water.  That's it.   The value judgments should be by others, because rarely does one solution stand alone and above all others on all possible scientific, political, economic, and social grounds.  What's good economically may not be good scientifically, which may not be good politically, which may not be good socially. 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 06:46:56 PM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: CA Gov Jerry Brown issues first ever mandatory water restrictions
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2015, 06:44:00 PM »

That'd be like asking why don't scientists figure out a way to get more vaccines to Africa. That's not the scientists' job. They are responsible for researching and perfecting the vaccines. They identify problems and through the scientific method prove that their predictions and assumptions are correct beyond reasonable doubt. It is up to industries and/or the government to take that information and come up with a solution/distribution. They suggest "reduce water usage" because that's something that can at least delay worst case scenarios in the short term. Perhaps a long enough period of time for governoment officials to pull their heads out of their asses.

Scientists have offered solutions. They have the technology to desalinate the water, but that's too expensive and would require outside funding. I'm sure engineers could pipe water in from somewhere else that has it, but that would be too expensive and would require outside funding. See what I'm getting at?

The scientists are doing their job, and they are doing it well. The real problem is that we have law makers like James Inhofe who thinks snow in DC is proof that the earth isn't getting warmer and is quoted saying "My point is, God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous.”. For fucks sake.

Inhofe is a fucking idiot.  We can list idiots on both sides, and where are we?  Nowhere.   Despite what Kirk would have you belief not ALL Republicans worship at the altar of James Inhofe. 

So other than that, it seems as if we are in agreement, no?   The scientists are doing their job.  Now it's up to 'we the people' to fix it, no?  That is, if it is worth fixing.