The DC Movies Thread v AQUAMAN

[kaos2900]

Watched the Ultimate Edition of BvS this weekend and loved it. Never saw the original version, but I walked away very satisfied. Lex didn't even annoy me as much as I thought he would. Looking forward to upcoming DC films!

[Darkstarshades]

It is significantly better than what we saw originally.
Lesser minds might tell you that they were just a couple of short scenes added here and there and that they were meaningless, but these are people who didn't understand what the narrative issues were in the first place. There is a hell lot more into Lex's plan than what the original one showed. The russian agent's role is greatly expanded, the woman blaming Superman is explained, and a lot of cool references to Superman's weakness.

It flows a lot better, does a lot to get the film straight and it doesn't feel all that forced when you think about it.
Sure, we could have used another film of either character before this, but the way BvS was presented, it worked perfectly for me.
I really fail to understand what people's problem with Lex is. Can't we accept that this fiction, after all? He's clearly insane, specially after getting in touch with Steppenwolf.
Also, I don't think "Doomsday" is done. The beast we saw was hinted as a resurrected being, which means it already existed, and might come back, who knows.

What pisses many people off, including me, is why the hell didn't they show this from the beggining. The person in charge of editing the film to make it 30 minutes shorter was placed in such a hellish situation, which shouldn't have been necessary.
It doesn't even make it to the 3-hour mark (without credits).

[Darkstarshades]

The extended edition was better, but only really bumped the movie up from a 6/10 to a 7 or 7.5/10 for me. Some of the major problems were still in the movie, like even though they made the part in Africa better, that whole subplot still felt unnecessary and boring. Lex Luthor was still cringeworthy and the whole "Martha" -"WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!" -"That's his mommy's name" sequence was still there. Or the fact that Lex Luthor created icons for all the superheroes he had been keeping tabs on. A lot of those stupid problems were still featured, but at least this cut had a better flow and it didn't feel as choppy.

You almost quoted Angry Joe's review of the film.
I didn't find the Martha scene cringeworthy either. Imagine a child who sees his parents murdered in front of him and is totally helpless to stop it and spends the rest of his life thinking about that. That man suddenly hearing the name of his deceased mother (something only he, supposedly, knows) from the guy he's trying to kill?
He doesn't go "Oh no he named Martha", he actually pushes him even harder to answer his question as to why he said that and he would have finished him off if it wasn't for LL's arrival. He's an alien, an alien that didn't mind murdering thousands of people during his battle against Zod, why would he have a mother as we know it? He's been almighty throughout his life, why would he care? How does he dare saying his mother's name? Yet in the end, he comes to understand that Superman didn't really have any reason to go against him but that, and that's the point, Superman doesn't really have anything against Batman other than stopping his vigilante activities (but not Bruce himself) and the extended cut sees that issue.

When you're in such situations, I don't think you actually make sense out of your own mind, humans are paranoid beings, he's all triumphant convinced that he brought down the godlike being and of sudden, he says that.

[Phoenix87x]

I just watched Batman the Killing joke animated film. It was decent



One spoiler kind of thing where I was like whoa was

Batman and batgirl randomly have sex. Its like super out of nowhere.

[Cyclopssss]

I just watched Batman the Killing joke animated film. It was decent



One spoiler kind of thing where I was like whoa was

Batman and batgirl randomly have sex. Its like super out of nowhere.

Yeah, it created a major controversy amongst fans. At Comic Con, someone asked a question about it at one of the creators and got called a 'pussy'. Classy, right?

The whole problem is, it's so out of character for Barbara that the whole scene is just ridiculous.

[Cyclopssss]

Speaking of Comic Con, anyone seen the trailers they've put out of Wonder Woman and League of Justice? I thought both looked awesome. What are your thoughts? 

[Zantera]

Justice League trailer was great. Wonder Woman trailer was good, but I'm not AS excited for it. It looks like dumb schlock that could be fun.

[Adami]

Justice League trailer was good. It's pretty obvious they said "Ah screw it, let's just do what Marvel's doing", but if it ain't broke.

[Polarbear]

I just watched Batman the Killing joke animated film. It was decent



One spoiler kind of thing where I was like whoa was

Batman and batgirl randomly have sex. Its like super out of nowhere.

Yeah, it created a major controversy amongst fans. At Comic Con, someone asked a question about it at one of the creators and got called a 'pussy'. Classy, right?

The whole problem is, it's so out of character for Barbara that the whole scene is just ridiculous.

When i heard this, i thought someone was doing really bad joke. I mean seriously?? I don't think i'll be watching The Killing Joke..

Justice League looks good though, but the one i'm really excited about is Wonder Woman. That trailer sold me!

[Adami]

Yea, Wonder Woman looks great. Someone else on yotube pointed out that she is the first person acting heroic in the DCU.

[Darkstarshades]

"I'm offended because WW needs 5 men to help her. A strong woman can easily manage by herself. This film needs more female influences. Why Aquaman has to he a guy? Mermaids are way more famous (altho she doesn't need to be halfnaked at all, she's not a sexual object"

[King Postwhore]

I really hope that's a quote from someone else.

[Zantera]

My biggest fear regarding WW is the tone. I feel like the trailer makes it seem darker/more serious than it should be. The concept is goofy as hell and it's essentially a better (but still as cheesy) Xena the warrior princess, and I think you need to make it lighter and less serious to make it great fun. A trailer is only a trailer, but if they try to go the BvS/MoS-route with the tone, it could be a disaster. We'll see, I won't judge it on one trailer. The action itself looked good.

[Darkstarshades]

My biggest fear regarding WW is the tone. I feel like the trailer makes it seem darker/more serious than it should be. The concept is goofy as hell and it's essentially a better (but still as cheesy) Xena the warrior princess, and I think you need to make it lighter and less serious to make it great fun. A trailer is only a trailer, but if they try to go the BvS/MoS-route with the tone, it could be a disaster. We'll see, I won't judge it on one trailer. The action itself looked good.

Triggered
You think women don't have the right to be serious as fuck?
A movie about two MEN can be serious and nonody says shit, but a WOMAN can't be serious!?!?

[Zook]

Xena did not age well. I hope if they go for a lighter tone it's not cheesy as fuck like that show.

[Adami]

So I'm starting to get worried about Suicide Squad. So much of the promotion and buzz is around Leto's Joker, who I assumed was going to be a smaller role.

I just feel like they're lacking faith in the rest of the cast and are making it all about Joker, and people might feel let down when it's not essentially a Joker movie.

I dunno, I just wish they had more buzz about the rest of the cast, besides just Joker and Harley, since the rest of them look great.

[aurorablind]

I agree.
David Ayer said himself that Deadshot would drive the story, so Im pretty sure some people will complain about Joker not being the big character they think after watching the trailers.
And I feel that they're making the same marketing mistake as BvS. They are showing way to much with all the Tv-spots and extended trailers. I just hope they havent showed snippets of EVERY Joker-scene.
And if they stay true the comics, the conversation they've shown between Boomerang and Slipknot is a big Spoiler..
Still VERY excited though. The movie looks awesome!

[Zantera]

Some early reviews are in, currently sitting at 37% at RT. Could definitely go up, but looks like another mixed bag in terms of reception. Seeing it on Sunday myself. I'm not overly hyped (the concept of Suicide Squad never blew me away), but add Batman, Flash (I heard somewhere that he will cameo) and some classic Batman characters like Joker and Harley Quinn and I'll pay for a ticket at least.

[kaos2900]

IGN's review was brutal.

[Darkstarshades]

I think they're just being jerks.
I can't trust a world that reviews Iron Man 2 and 3 so highly.

[King Postwhore]

Seems the fans reviews so,far are very good and the critics hate it.  To me it that means it's a fun movie that if you care about the little things you'll hate it

[hefdaddy42]

My daughter loves Harley Quinn, so we will try to catch it some time this weekend.

[Zantera]

https://www.change.org/p/rottentomatoes-com-shutdown-rotten-tomatoes

oh dear lord, it has begun 

[King Postwhore]

The Internet just allow all to see jackasses that we'd never interact with otherwise.

[Accelerando]

Just like Dawn of Justice, I'm going in open minded and review free, and I ended not being crazy about it either. I saw X-Men Apocalypse the same way, which wasn't a hit with the critics either, and I enjoyed it.

I can't trust a world that reviews Iron Man 2 and 3 so highly.

Bingo

[ariich]

I'm surprised at how many people seem to care so much what critics think. Since I was a child I've never relied on critics of any kind of art (music, films, whatever) because everyone has different tastes/approaches, but critics have a specific job to be critical. Normally when critics love something I find it at the very least good (though sometimes not as mindblowing as they make out), but when they dislike something I can normally ignore it and prefer to read/listen to what normal people are saying. I don't always agree with that either, but at least it's far more representative of normal human beings.

This is why I like sites like IMDB. In the case of the DC movies so far, Man of Steel and BvS are both rated around 7/10, which feels about right to me. They're good films overall, with some really excellent stuff but also flaws, and not with the same strong coherence as some other films in the genre like the Dark Knight trilogy or many of Marvel's outputs.

[Zantera]

I think for some people, general consensus being positive is something you want because if you like it, you want other people to not hate it. Normally I don't really care, there are some movies that I love, like Cloud Atlas which got a very mixed reception. That's cool. I think a lot of the DC fanboys in this case are upset because in their eyes, DC is better than Marvel, yet so far out of the gate, they have 3 rotten films in their cinematic universe whereas Marvel has been smooth sailing with only a few bumps, and even those bumps haven't been that big. Also, generally speaking, a good reception means a good word of mouth, which means the movie makes more money and future sequels are more possible. Bad reception can really torpedo a movie.

But I mean, we're talking about a group of people who think Disney has paid off critics to love the Marvel films and hate the DC films. That's the level of delusional we're dealing with, so it should probably not be that surprising that people are outraged over something as trivial as opinions. 

[soupytwist]

I'm surprised at how many people seem to care so much what critics think. Since I was a child I've never relied on critics of any kind of art (music, films, whatever) because everyone has different tastes/approaches, but critics have a specific job to be critical. Normally when critics love something I find it at the very least good (though sometimes not as mindblowing as they make out), but when they dislike something I can normally ignore it and prefer to read/listen to what normal people are saying. I don't always agree with that either, but at least it's far more representative of normal human beings.

This is why I like sites like IMDB. In the case of the DC movies so far, Man of Steel and BvS are both rated around 7/10, which feels about right to me. They're good films overall, with some really excellent stuff but also flaws, and not with the same strong coherence as some other films in the genre like the Dark Knight trilogy or many of Marvel's outputs.

IMDB reviews are stupid, it's just full of fanboi's and troll's giving out 0/10 or 10/10.  All you need is a email account to post a review - Suicide Squad already have 8000 reviews depict the film isn't even out yet....At least you know the critics have actually seen the film and in general are capable of writing a articulate reviews - not just 'This Film Rox/Sux'.

I'm not saying I agree with critics all the time - but on Comic book movies a genre I enjoy I find most of the films have been reviewed roughly with how i'd go with.   Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy were great films.   The Amazing Spiderman and Thor 2 were average films.  Fantasic Four and Green Lantern were dreadful - That's how the critics reviewed them and I tend to agree.   The only one in recent times I've felt different about was 'Days of Future Past' the critics loved it and I thought it was pretty weak (although the fans loved it too, so that's just me outta step I guess).

[aurorablind]

I really want to go in to this movie with an open mind, not being affected by critics.. But every fucking news-site have put up their review on the front page today - two days before the movie premiers! The first thing I saw when I opened my web-browser this morning was "Another failed attempt by DC". FUCK.
Well..my brother said that Jeremy Jahns really liked it, and I've mostly agreed with most of JJ's opinions before.

[ariich]

IMDB reviews are stupid, it's just full of fanboi's and troll's giving out 0/10 or 10/10.  All you need is a email account to post a review - Suicide Squad already have 8000 reviews depict the film isn't even out yet....At least you know the critics have actually seen the film and in general are capable of writing a articulate reviews - not just 'This Film Rox/Sux'.

I'm not talking about reviews, I'm talking about average ratings. But at this stage before a film has even come out, sure thing, I'd agree with what you say. But once a film has been out for a while and has been rated tens of thousands of times (or more, even) then those sorts of ratings get merged into the masses and don't really make any difference, and the average rating produces a good assessment of what "the masses", on average, think of the movie.

Plus IMDB has a way of weighting things to also smooth out skews like that, which is very effective once numbers are high enough. They've never revealed how they do it, but my guess is that each account holder is assigned a weighting based on the range of ratings they give, e.g. someone who basically only gives 0s and 10s will be weighted less than someone who gives a greater variety of ratings. RateYourMusic does the same sort of thing, though usually the numbers of people rating anything are too low and are easily skewed by strong opinions like that.


Jimmy, when you say 3 rotten films, do you mean in rottentomatoes terms? I seem to recall you saying you found BvS decent, if flawed. I'd hardly call that rotten.

[Zantera]

Yeah I meant certified rotten on RT. I think the problem with the rating system (0-10) is that trolls and fanboys will screw it up, and it will never be trustworthy. Opinions are opinions but there's certain situations where people are giving out 0's or 10's to movies that don't justify the rating. What's good with something like RT is that it boils down to "did you like it or did you not like it?" and you get an idea of how many viewers liked it and how many didn't. When you throw in ratings in the mix, you have people voting 10 for BvS and 0 or 1 on Civil War just because "DC > Marvel".

[ariich]

Like I said though, IMDB weights its average ratings to stop those extremes from skewing the overall result.

For sure there can be a benefit from a simple yes/no (although I'd question how it's determined - is a 3 star rating a like or dislike?), but that only works if you have a big sample that broadly represents the general population like IMDB does. Whereas RT is a small sample only taken from professional critics whose job it is to be critical, and who therefore do not remotely represent the general population. I find a lot of overlap between average IMDB ratings and my own opinions (far from a perfect match, but surprisingly close), whereas basically zero correlation with critical response.

I can see a clear case for individuals who find that their own tastes match quite closely to individual critics - that's fair enough, and it makes sense that those people would trust the reviews from that critic. Whereas an aggregating site like RT is meaningless in my opinion, but unfortunately a lot of people seem to take it seriously, including some of those DC fanboys it seems.

[soupytwist]

Like I said though, IMDB weights its average ratings to stop those extremes from skewing the overall result.

For sure there can be a benefit from a simple yes/no (although I'd question how it's determined - is a 3 star rating a like or dislike?), but that only works if you have a big sample that broadly represents the general population like IMDB does. Whereas RT is a small sample only taken from professional critics whose job it is to be critical, and who therefore do not remotely represent the general population. I find a lot of overlap between average IMDB ratings and my own opinions (far from a perfect match, but surprisingly close), whereas basically zero correlation with critical response.

I can see a clear case for individuals who find that their own tastes match quite closely to individual critics - that's fair enough, and it makes sense that those people would trust the reviews from that critic. Whereas an aggregating site like RT is meaningless in my opinion, but unfortunately a lot of people seem to take it seriously, including some of those DC fanboys it seems.

Yeah but RT also has a Audience score as well as critic score too.   If you click on Bats vs Supes on IMDB you'll see 10/10 is the most popular user score - that's why I think it's total rubbish.   I get the fact people like the movie, and some will even love it - but 10/10 the most popular score really??   And if you want to see a real horror of IMDB scores/users click on Ghostbusters 2016........28% gave it 1, 23% gave it 10.   So 51% of people who 'saw' that movie objectively gave it 1 or 10.....

...And that lead to the other problem - so many films end up in the middle ground period of 6 - 7'ish area.   Take the Bond Franchise 50+ years, 24 canon movies, plenty of highs and lows.   But on IMDB the highest film is 7.9 the lowest 6.2 (with 13 of them on 6.7 -7.1).

[ariich]

Yeah but RT also has a Audience score as well as critic score too.   If you click on Bats vs Supes on IMDB you'll see 10/10 is the most popular user score - that's why I think it's total rubbish.

Didn't know about the audience score, but yes of course it can skewed like that as numbers won't be big enough - things tend to settle over time whereas RT is based on views at release rather than later on.

And if you want to see a real horror of IMDB scores/users click on Ghostbusters 2016........28% gave it 1, 23% gave it 10.   So 51% of people who 'saw' that movie objectively gave it 1 or 10.....

Clearly that's a special case because of all the controversy surrounding it. So yes, SOME movies can be skewed like that, but once again IMDB has clever ways of smoothing this out, and this particularly happens over time whereas that film is still very new. It should end up with far far more ratings than 60,000. The average for Ghostbusters is currently slightly lower than a simple average of all the individual ratings.

[ariich]

...And that lead to the other problem - so many films end up in the middle ground period of 6 - 7'ish area.   Take the Bond Franchise 50+ years, 24 canon movies, plenty of highs and lows.   But on IMDB the highest film is 7.9 the lowest 6.2 (with 13 of them on 6.7 -7.1).

I fail to see a problem with that.