Criticism around the web of post-Portnoy DT

[BlackInk]

2. There was a bit of a "sobering up" period I think. With MM joining the ranks, I think a lot of people were hoping that DT would soar to new heights. When it turned out that they would continue the trajectory they were on before, I think people got vocal about their disappointment.

I think that ADToE was a 'soar to new heights' album compared to MP's last album with the band. I liked ADToE a lot when it came out and I like it still. But DT12 was most definetely a disappointment after ADToE.

[Skeever]

Count me in as a guy who's basically here for Petrucci's guitar playing these days. I had felt like the guys started to feel like they were phoning it in around Black Clouds, but when Mangini joined my interest piqued again. Unfortunately, I can't really say that I feel DT12 is better than any of the Roadrunner era DT albums. However, JP's guitar work continues to impress, so there will always be that. I just have immense respect and admiration for JP as a player.

[Stadler]

Now imagine that DT12, instead of having Mangini, it has Portnoy, and that the music stays the same...
Would it get the same hatred it gets? (The same goes for ADTOE)

But isn't that the root of the problem?  I don't blame MM at all, but part of the creativity was the creative tension between the members, and while John is a supremely talented musician, sometimes even the best of us need someone else to sort of tell them "bro, that ain't working".   Does anyone really think that Paul McCartney is better without that Lennon a-hole dragging him down?  Or that Mick Jagger needs to shed that albatross Richards STAT? 

I get that the fanbase doesn't seem enamored of SC or BC&SL but remember that Mike was saying the band was on fumes and needed a break.   So that is flawed data right there.   Personally, I think (with one exception, TITL) James sang better with Mike there busting his chops (see the SC documentary).  Personally, as great a player as MM is (and I think that goes without saying) he's not (and isn't being asked to be) the same guy "in the clubhouse" and that is telling.  DT post-Portnoy is akin to Yes without Anderson, Aerosmith without Joe Fuckin' Perry, or the Cowboys without Jimmy Johnson.

[Prog Snob]

DTF's rankings are pretty consistent with other online rankings. It's somewhere at the top of the "tier 2" albums. So, not comparable (and not by a good distance) to IAW/SFAM/Awake/SDOIT/ToT (which are the tier 1 albums), but just "good average", so to speak.

I doubt ToT is a tier 1 album (probably not a coincidence you mentioned it last). I'll give you the rest, but both Awake and SDOIT are somewhat controversial. I think the only clear t1 albums that virtually everyone can agree on are IaW & SFaM. The rest comes after.

I agree with this. I know there's that chart showing ToT with a significantly high ranking but I never for once considered to be an album deserving of mention along with Metropolis 2 or Images and Words. 

[King Postwhore]

Yes since Drama was such a terrible album.  Every time I listen to a John Anderson song, I want to punch myself in the nuts.  I do not equate MP missing to the song quality.  It's on JP.

[425]

I agree with this. I know there's that chart showing ToT with a significantly high ranking but I never for once considered to be an album deserving of mention along with Metropolis 2 or Images and Words.

Relevant sneak preview #1:

Just finished tabulating Train of Thought's votes. It has at least one vote for every position except 1st place, and over half its votes are 5th, 6th and 7th place votes.

[KevShmev]

  Personally, as great a player as MM is (and I think that goes without saying) he's not (and isn't being asked to be) the same guy "in the clubhouse" and that is telling.  DT post-Portnoy is akin to Yes without Anderson, Aerosmith without Joe Fuckin' Perry, or the Cowboys without Jimmy Johnson.

 

No way.

[BlobVanDam]

I agree with this. I know there's that chart showing ToT with a significantly high ranking but I never for once considered to be an album deserving of mention along with Metropolis 2 or Images and Words.

Relevant sneak preview #1:

Just finished tabulating Train of Thought's votes. It has at least one vote for every position except 1st place, and over half its votes are 5th, 6th and 7th place votes.

It appears that outside of the "top 4", the only albums to get #1 on anyone's list is one vote for Octavarium, and somehow two votes for ADTOE. So 5th spot would still be an achievement for whatever album takes that spot. TOT is a bit controversial due to its intentionally one dimensional nature (albeit done very well imo), so I'll be interested to see where it lands. I'd put it well above everything post-8V.

[Prog Snob]

I agree with this. I know there's that chart showing ToT with a significantly high ranking but I never for once considered to be an album deserving of mention along with Metropolis 2 or Images and Words.

Relevant sneak preview #1:

Just finished tabulating Train of Thought's votes. It has at least one vote for every position except 1st place, and over half its votes are 5th, 6th and 7th place votes.

So it's maybe a tad above average.  I can see on that chart everything is significantly lower that ToT.  I would give it a 2nd tier release. I love the heaviness and darkness of it but it's too one-dimensional to be a complete DT release.

[425]

Honestly, that fits with my general impression of this forum's view of ToT. I always saw it as an album that some people rank high and some people rank low, but most people rank somewhere in the middle, with maybe a few more people ranking it above average than below.

Relevant sneak preview #2:

Octavarium is the first album (chronologically, and I suppose according to what Blob is saying ADTOE is the only other one that could possibly do this) to get at least one vote at every position 1 through 12. And (NUGGETZ!) it received more 8th-place votes than any other votes. I wonder if there's some kind of subconscious factor involved there. 

[Prog Snob]

Honestly, that fits with my general impression of this forum's view of ToT. I always saw it as an album that some people rank high and some people rank low, but most people rank somewhere in the middle, with maybe a few more people ranking it above average than below.

Relevant sneak preview #2:

Octavarium is the first album (chronologically, and I suppose according to what Blob is saying ADTOE is the only other one that could possibly do this) to get at least one vote at every position 1 through 12. And (NUGGETZ!) it received more 8th-place votes than any other votes. I wonder if there's some kind of subconscious factor involved there. 

It's all about the NUGGETZ! 

[Stadler]

  Personally, as great a player as MM is (and I think that goes without saying) he's not (and isn't being asked to be) the same guy "in the clubhouse" and that is telling.  DT post-Portnoy is akin to Yes without Anderson, Aerosmith without Joe Fuckin' Perry, or the Cowboys without Jimmy Johnson.

 

No way.

Every time I listen to a John Anderson song, I want to punch myself in the nuts.  I do not equate MP missing to the song quality.  It's on JP.

I didn't say anything about "song quality".  That's subjective, and someone's opinion on a given song doesn't matter at all to me.   I'm talking the "in the locker room dynamic".   The fact that before, everything nominally had to be "approved" (even if it was a tacit approval) by Mike, and now there is no such tollgate.   Even the band members say it's different, so I'm not sure how you guys can say it isn't.   

[hefdaddy42]

I have no doubt the dynamic is different; that goes without saying.

I am assuming the  was because with the examples you listed, the consensus on most of them is that there was a huge dropoff.  Not just one thing/different thing, but better/worse.

[bosk1]

Good discussion topic.  But the thread title, on the other hand, is out of bounds.  For one thing, it is insulting to whatever you deem to be the "general 'fanbase.'"  The discussion can continue, but I am changing the thread title.  Please use better judgment in the future.

[King Postwhore]

Sure the dynamics have changed.  the one who was most hands on in every aspect in the band is no longer with them. That's a no brainer.

[Darkstarshades]

Good discussion topic.  But the thread title, on the other hand, is out of bounds.  For one thing, it is insulting to whatever you deem to be the "general 'fanbase.'"  The discussion can continue, but I am changing the thread title.  Please use better judgment in the future.

Thanks, agree.
I will be more considerate with my posts xD
Anyway, perhaps MORE Portnoy albums get hatred than the 2 Mangini ones.

[Darkstarshades]

Now imagine that DT12, instead of having Mangini, it has Portnoy, and that the music stays the same...
Would it get the same hatred it gets? (The same goes for ADTOE)

But isn't that the root of the problem?  I don't blame MM at all, but part of the creativity was the creative tension between the members, and while John is a supremely talented musician, sometimes even the best of us need someone else to sort of tell them "bro, that ain't working".   Does anyone really think that Paul McCartney is better without that Lennon a-hole dragging him down?  Or that Mick Jagger needs to shed that albatross Richards STAT? 

I get that the fanbase doesn't seem enamored of SC or BC&SL but remember that Mike was saying the band was on fumes and needed a break.   So that is flawed data right there.   Personally, I think (with one exception, TITL) James sang better with Mike there busting his chops (see the SC documentary).  Personally, as great a player as MM is (and I think that goes without saying) he's not (and isn't being asked to be) the same guy "in the clubhouse" and that is telling.  DT post-Portnoy is akin to Yes without Anderson, Aerosmith without Joe Fuckin' Perry, or the Cowboys without Jimmy Johnson.

With this, I meant that I got the belief that most people criticize these new albums without any real musical knowledge or knowing that the hell is going on, and simply throw stuff at it because Portnoy is not there.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

So do you need "musical knowledge" to determine whether or not you like something?

[AngelBack]

After two post-MP records I feel the creative element in DT has definitely changed.  Not that the songs are not awesome, but we should not expect the type of creative, boundary pushing songs that MP brought to the band.  Without his input we will get great songs that are in a more narrow window of creative construction.  But that is better than having MP there and possibly an even more radically changed band, musically or even personnel wise.

[bosk1]

Now imagine that DT12, instead of having Mangini, it has Portnoy, and that the music stays the same...
Would it get the same hatred it gets? (The same goes for ADTOE)

But isn't that the root of the problem?  I don't blame MM at all, but part of the creativity was the creative tension between the members, and while John is a supremely talented musician, sometimes even the best of us need someone else to sort of tell them "bro, that ain't working".   Does anyone really think that Paul McCartney is better without that Lennon a-hole dragging him down?  Or that Mick Jagger needs to shed that albatross Richards STAT? 

I get that the fanbase doesn't seem enamored of SC or BC&SL but remember that Mike was saying the band was on fumes and needed a break.   So that is flawed data right there.   Personally, I think (with one exception, TITL) James sang better with Mike there busting his chops (see the SC documentary).  Personally, as great a player as MM is (and I think that goes without saying) he's not (and isn't being asked to be) the same guy "in the clubhouse" and that is telling.  DT post-Portnoy is akin to Yes without Anderson, Aerosmith without Joe Fuckin' Perry, or the Cowboys without Jimmy Johnson.

With this, I meant that I got the belief that most people criticize these new albums without any real musical knowledge or knowing that the hell is going on, and simply throw stuff at it because Portnoy is not there.

There is definitely a LOT of that.  But to be fair, there is also a lot of criticism that is fair and well-reasoned (even if I might disagree with it).  Personally, I love the Mangini-era albums.  I have been a fan since '92, but ADTOE and DT are my 3rd and 4th favorite albums.  But I still get that reasonable minds will differ.

[Skeever]

DT12 seems to get more criticism than ADTOE.

[Kotowboy]

DT12 seems to get more criticism than ADTOE.

A Dramatic Turn Of Events is a much better album overall.

[El Barto]

Here's something that's occurred to me reading through this thread. For the most part we all have our favorite albums and they're mostly from ages ago. Yet, when MP was in the band there was always that possibility that they might do something just as kick ass. How many people thought DT jumped the shark after FII? While many of the songs were weak-average, 8V as a concept and as a song was patently brilliant and also followed a downturn. Up until 2010 all of the pieces were there and it always seemed to me just a matter of time before the next Awake (my favorite of the lot) came out. I have no sense whatsoever that the current lineup following the current path will ever create anything along those lines. This has nothing to do with Mangini. It has more to do with the chemistry, much like the McCartny/Lennon analogy somebody brought up earlier. This is now a very talented band that, IMO, lost the creative spark that made their masterpiece works possible. I don't consider the two MM albums to be terrible, and one might be better than a few of the MP albums. However the band itself just holds no interest for me anymore since, unlike previous times, I'm not thinking an average album is just a misfire before things turn all bad ass again.

[Lucien]

(I also read posts saying that it had blatantly ripped off Tchaivosky's Piano Concerto, and that it sucked because of that)

Well, this is kinda true 

But I still love Illumination Theory

[BlobVanDam]

With this, I meant that I got the belief that most people criticize these new albums without any real musical knowledge or knowing that the hell is going on, and simply throw stuff at it because Portnoy is not there.

Then you haven't been around the forum long, because that is not the case here.

[BlackInk]

Musical knowledge or 'knowing what's going on' isn't even required to post about whether you enjoy it or not.

[puppyonacid]

Here's something that's occurred to me reading through this thread. For the most part we all have our favorite albums and they're mostly from ages ago. Yet, when MP was in the band there was always that possibility that they might do something just as kick ass. How many people thought DT jumped the shark after FII? While many of the songs were weak-average, 8V as a concept and as a song was patently brilliant and also followed a downturn. Up until 2010 all of the pieces were there and it always seemed to me just a matter of time before the next Awake (my favorite of the lot) came out. I have no sense whatsoever that the current lineup following the current path will ever create anything along those lines. This has nothing to do with Mangini. It has more to do with the chemistry, much like the McCartny/Lennon analogy somebody brought up earlier. This is now a very talented band that, IMO, lost the creative spark that made their masterpiece works possible. I don't consider the two MM albums to be terrible, and one might be better than a few of the MP albums. However the band itself just holds no interest for me anymore since, unlike previous times, I'm not thinking an average album is just a misfire before things turn all bad ass again.

This and also following on from Stadler...

I was happy when MM got the gig as I've always liked his drumming and figured he deserved a shot at being in a band like DT long before he was in DT.

I thought the way Mike quit was hasty and was foolhardy.

However - if they had had a break (not 5 years...that would have been too long)then I think that the last album and the next one would have been way better than the two MM albums due to the chemistry and dynamics that are now lacking.

It's just my opinion. I also think though, that the individual members are much happier without the tension so there is a trade. They look more comfortable on stage and there is more interaction between the members in a live setting. I prefer them live now as you can see how relaxed they are.

[Scorpion]

On-topic: I like both of the Mangini albums, but I find that I rarely revisit them, but maybe that's just a function of how little I listen to DT nowadays - when I do, I always listen to what I find their very best, and both albums, while solid, have no songs on them (with the exception of BitS and BAI) that I would consider to be among my very favourite things that the band has ever done.

[rumborak]

With this, I meant that I got the belief that most people criticize these new albums without any real musical knowledge or knowing that the hell is going on, and simply throw stuff at it because Portnoy is not there.

Then you haven't been around the forum long, because that is not the case here.

In an equally sweeping statement as the OP, I think people use accusations like the above to just wholesale dismiss disagreeing opinions.

[hefdaddy42]

With this, I meant that I got the belief that most people criticize these new albums without any real musical knowledge or knowing that the hell is going on, and simply throw stuff at it because Portnoy is not there.

Then you haven't been around the forum long, because that is not the case here.

In an equally sweeping statement as the OP, I think people use accusations like the above to just wholesale dismiss disagreeing opinions.

Then you haven't been around the forum long, because that is not the case here.

[bosk1]

Since some people did not get that another poster and I were just joking with/trolling each other and actually reported some of the posts, that sub-thread of discussion has been removed.  It was just random goofiness.  Sorry if it bothered anyone.

[TempusVox]

 

[TempusVox]

On topic...I think people fail to realize that it's not the same band anymore, and that's okay. 20% of the band has changed. That may not seem like a lot but it really is. Comparing the two is okay, but not if your comparison is because you expect the band to be the same band as it was when MP was there. He was a major part of their creative process; and even if MM contributed as much as MP did previously, it would still be different because they're two different people.

It's like Dee Sniders gripe with KISS and Tommy Thayer. It would be great if KISS brought in musicians to replace Ace and Peter, but the problem arises because they are in essence playing the role of Ace and Peter. It's almost like people expect or want MM to BE MP. He's not. And I don't want him to be.

I can still enjoy DT, and all of the musicians and enjoy the new fork in their journey. I mean think of how much the band changed when Jordan joined. It was an incredible transformation. But at least they're keeping it real.

[TAC]

Here's something that's occurred to me reading through this thread. For the most part we all have our favorite albums and they're mostly from ages ago. Yet, when MP was in the band there was always that possibility that they might do something just as kick ass. How many people thought DT jumped the shark after FII? While many of the songs were weak-average, 8V as a concept and as a song was patently brilliant and also followed a downturn. Up until 2010 all of the pieces were there and it always seemed to me just a matter of time before the next Awake (my favorite of the lot) came out. I have no sense whatsoever that the current lineup following the current path will ever create anything along those lines. This has nothing to do with Mangini. It has more to do with the chemistry, much like the McCartny/Lennon analogy somebody brought up earlier. This is now a very talented band that, IMO, lost the creative spark that made their masterpiece works possible. I don't consider the two MM albums to be terrible, and one might be better than a few of the MP albums. However the band itself just holds no interest for me anymore since, unlike previous times, I'm not thinking an average album is just a misfire before things turn all bad ass again.

That all makes perfect sense, but as long as they are still making albums, I am still hopeful for some "bad ass". 
I have been very happy with the two latest albums.

[?]

I'm not surprised if some people refuse to give a chance to the new DT or dislike it just because of MP's absence, but those are just a small yet vocal minority. All bands have (ex-)fans who think they turned to crap when one member left or the band changed its style.