Criticism around the web of post-Portnoy DT

[Madman Shepherd]

People need to be careful not to minimize MP's contributions but they also need to be careful not to overstate his contributions. 

Because one of the main things he did was help arrange songs, people misconstrue his role as that of *the* arranger.  JP and JR from what I understand did as much arranging but I think it is safe to assume more arranging than MP did.  Afterall, they wrote 99% of the riffs so I'm sure they did the majority of the arranging in its beginning stages.  Then as they were piecing the song together MP probably had much more of a say and was much more vocal but that doesn't mean he railroaded the other two just because they are more soft spoken. 

[rumborak]

Frankly, I was actually blown away how *little* difference there was between SC/BCSL and ADOTE/DT12. There are differences of course, but not much more than the small increments that happened for a long time already. Most of the things I have seen being touted as a new thing since the schism, had really been already going on for several albums before MP split.

[Kotowboy]

MP was like Lars Ulrich.

They can't really play any melodic instrument so they figured out they could get a writers credit if they "arrange".

Because drummers don't count as "writers" unless they split their money equally which they didn't do until Trujillo came along.

[425]

MP definitely plays a significant role in arranging, though, in any band that he's in. It's clear that he does just from the few minutes of songwriting footage we got on the Transatlantic Kaleidoscope documentary, in which he takes the lead in figuring out how complex multi-part songs will go together. Whether Lars does the same is more questionable.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Frankly, I was actually blown away how *little* difference there was between SC/BCSL and ADOTE/DT12. There are differences of course, but not much more than the small increments that happened for a long time already. Most of the things I have seen being touted as a new thing since the schism, had really been already going on for several albums before MP split.

Not sure I agree. I don't see many traces of the band that wrote ITPOE and ANTR, for example, on the past two albums. That stuff came from a different sonic place. Likewise, songs like OTBOA and TBP just are hard to imagine on SC or BCSL. Part is the production (esp. drums), but there's an overarching feel that definitely changed.

[Madman Shepherd]

Frankly, I was actually blown away how *little* difference there was between SC/BCSL and ADOTE/DT12. There are differences of course, but not much more than the small increments that happened for a long time already. Most of the things I have seen being touted as a new thing since the schism, had really been already going on for several albums before MP split.

Not sure I agree. I don't see many traces of the band that wrote ITPOE and ANTR, for example, on the past two albums. That stuff came from a different sonic place. Likewise, songs like OTBOA and TBP just are hard to imagine on SC or BCSL. Part is the production (esp. drums), but there's an overarching feel that definitely changed.

...and I gotta disagree with that.  I think TBP sounds just like a band that has written songs like IWBY and TDEN but quite simply put a little more of an ambient, moody spin on it.  I don't see a huge difference...at least anymore than there was a difference between SFAM and SDOIT or 8V and SC.

[KevShmev]

MP definitely plays a significant role in arranging, though, in any band that he's in. It's clear that he does just from the few minutes of songwriting footage we got on the Transatlantic Kaleidoscope documentary, in which he takes the lead in figuring out how complex multi-part songs will go together. Whether Lars does the same is more questionable.

That might be true, but the thing is, Neal Morse and Roine Stolt are already both masters at that, so he's not doing anything those guys couldn't do already. 

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Frankly, I was actually blown away how *little* difference there was between SC/BCSL and ADOTE/DT12. There are differences of course, but not much more than the small increments that happened for a long time already. Most of the things I have seen being touted as a new thing since the schism, had really been already going on for several albums before MP split.

Not sure I agree. I don't see many traces of the band that wrote ITPOE and ANTR, for example, on the past two albums. That stuff came from a different sonic place. Likewise, songs like OTBOA and TBP just are hard to imagine on SC or BCSL. Part is the production (esp. drums), but there's an overarching feel that definitely changed.

...and I gotta disagree with that.  I think TBP sounds just like a band that has written songs like IWBY and TDEN but quite simply put a little more of an ambient, moody spin on it.  I don't see a huge difference...at least anymore than there was a difference between SFAM and SDOIT or 8V and SC.

Oh, I don't think that ADTOE and DT12 were especially groundbreaking albums for DT. TBP would fit on other albums (8V and FII, for example, and it's not too far from SFAM/SDOIT sound). But specifically SC/BCSL? Different headspace for me. I think that DT had gotten to a certain place there that was different fromt their past (for better or worse) and that since then, they've moved back to variants of the space they were at before those albums. 8V in particular isn't far removed from ADTOE/DT12; I think SC/BCSL are.

[Stadler]

Frankly, I was actually blown away how *little* difference there was between SC/BCSL and ADOTE/DT12. There are differences of course, but not much more than the small increments that happened for a long time already. Most of the things I have seen being touted as a new thing since the schism, had really been already going on for several albums before MP split.

Not sure I agree. I don't see many traces of the band that wrote ITPOE and ANTR, for example, on the past two albums. That stuff came from a different sonic place. Likewise, songs like OTBOA and TBP just are hard to imagine on SC or BCSL. Part is the production (esp. drums), but there's an overarching feel that definitely changed.

Yeah, I don't agree with that either.    I'm not saying it's the difference between Slayer and One Direction, but there is a difference.   Perhaps it is because I just ended up listening to the ToT and BC&SL instrumental mixes that it seems so obvious to me.   There is a degree to which the music as arranged by Mike breathes in a way that the music as arranged by JP/JR/whoever doesn't.   I'm not at all saying "better" or "worse" (though I know which one I prefer), just different.

[Stadler]

MP was like Lars Ulrich.

They can't really play any melodic instrument so they figured out they could get a writers credit if they "arrange".

Because drummers don't count as "writers" unless they split their money equally which they didn't do until Trujillo came along.

That's a rather cynical way of looking at it.   Even if you just count the "DT Rule" requiring lyric writers to come up with the melody lines, you're kind of off-base from the get go.   

[FLEEBS]

I don't dislike the new material because of Mangini. I think he's a pretty awesome guy.

I'm just not super excited about the music DT have been making since he joined the band.

^This.

[FLEEBS]

DT12 is bad but people blame mangini because of the bad drum sound. But really, the album is not bad because of mangini at all. It just feels kind of uninspired...

Man, I'm new to this forum, but I thought I was the only one that hated the drum sounds on DT12. At least with any fan I've ever spoken to in person. To clarify, I think the drumming itself is just fine, but the sound and production of the drums (and the production of the overall album) is terrible.

Anyway, I totally agree with your post.

[Darkstarshades]

DT13 will prove all you wrong.
This album will kick so much ass it will take SFAM's place as well as I&W
YOU HEARD IT.

[sneakyblueberry]

hahaha lol that's your best post yet

[Darkstarshades]

hahaha lol that's your best post yet

When I wrote this, I was still new here and believed that people here loved PMU and disliked Metropolis or underrated it.
Now I see that there is no real criticism toward MM himself but to the albums, arguments which I've grown to agree with

[sneakyblueberry]

hahaha lol that's your best post yet

When I wrote this, I was still new here and believed that people here loved PMU and disliked Metropolis or underrated it.
Now I see that there is no real criticism toward MM himself but to the albums, arguments which I've grown to agree with

The post is from today silly.

[wasteland]

hahaha lol that's your best post yet

When I wrote this, I was still new here and believed that people here loved PMU and disliked Metropolis or underrated it.
Now I see that there is no real criticism toward MM himself but to the albums, arguments which I've grown to agree with

The post is from today silly.

Lives can change in 20 minutes. 

[Train of Naught]

Your best bet is to have no expectations at all, it could only get better from there on.

[hefdaddy42]

hahaha lol that's your best post yet

When I wrote this, I was still new here and believed that people here loved PMU and disliked Metropolis or underrated it.
Now I see that there is no real criticism toward MM himself but to the albums, arguments which I've grown to agree with

The post is from today silly.

[kaos2900]

ADToE and DT12 >>>>>>>>>> BCSL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SC

[bl5150]

ADToE and DT12 >>>>>>>>>> BCSL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SC

No argument from me.

[goo-goo]

ADToE and DT12 >>>>>>>>>> BCSL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SC

No argument from me.

@bl5150
LOL @ your avatar. That's how I look at DTF when reading threads and waiting for DT's new album.

[hefdaddy42]

ADToE and DT12 >>>>>>>>>> BCSL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SC

Switch BCSL and SC for me.

[Madman Shepherd]

ADTOE >>>>>SC>>DT12>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BC&SL

[BlobVanDam]

SC>BCASL/ADTOE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DT12

[mikeyd23]

I guess I'll jump in as well...

ADTOE>>DT12>>>>>>>>BC&SL>SC

[kaos2900]

Systematic Chaos has not aged well with me at all. Easily my least favorite DT record.

[Stadler]

Also, who gives a fuck about what some loser on youtube thinks?

Yeah, some people haven't liked the last two albums.  But a lot of people HAVE liked them too.

I've been a DT fan a long time.  This happens for almost every album.

Hef is right on the mark.   I think you could replace the respective album titles and say all these criticisms about the last x number of albums.   It sucks royal when your second release (and first with your "classic lineup") sells more than any other three albums in your discography combined.   I hopped on the DT train with the release of I&W and it is the gold standard for me too, though I don't share the acrimony for the later works (though the OP loses all credibility with me by saying DT12 is "better" than I&W.  Hahaha).

I LIKE the last two, I just don't LOVE the last two like I do I&W, SFAM, SDOIT, and Octavarium (my three favorite DT albums).  Personally, I like bands with creative tension, and I do think that is missing here, for better or worse.  Other than Marillion, I can't name a band that I outright LOVE that doesn't have at least two strong members that give and take during the creative process.  I think that while JR is a force, I don't get the sense that there is more than one king in the kingdom of DT, and to me that is never a great sign for creativity.

[Kotowboy]

SC>BCASL/ADTOE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DT12

Ehhh . May as well.

The RoadRunner Albums :

1. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
2. Systematic Chaos
3. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
4. DT12 

[TheCountOfNYC]

I'll rate the RR records as well.

1: ADToE
2: BC&SL
3: DT12
4: SC

[ThatOneGuy2112]

1. DT12
2. ADTOE
3. SC
4. BC&SL

[Skeever]

Also, who gives a fuck about what some loser on youtube thinks?

Yeah, some people haven't liked the last two albums.  But a lot of people HAVE liked them too.

I've been a DT fan a long time.  This happens for almost every album.

Hef is right on the mark.   I think you could replace the respective album titles and say all these criticisms about the last x number of albums.   It sucks royal when your second release (and first with your "classic lineup") sells more than any other three albums in your discography combined.   I hopped on the DT train with the release of I&W and it is the gold standard for me too, though I don't share the acrimony for the later works (though the OP loses all credibility with me by saying DT12 is "better" than I&W.  Hahaha).

I LIKE the last two, I just don't LOVE the last two like I do I&W, SFAM, SDOIT, and Octavarium (my three favorite DT albums).  Personally, I like bands with creative tension, and I do think that is missing here, for better or worse.  Other than Marillion, I can't name a band that I outright LOVE that doesn't have at least two strong members that give and take during the creative process.  I think that while JR is a force, I don't get the sense that there is more than one king in the kingdom of DT, and to me that is never a great sign for creativity.

You've nailed it. There's not enough tension on DT12.

[Tomislav95]

DT>ADTOE>>>>>>>>>SC>BC&SL

[lucasembarbosa]

ADTOE>>DT12>>>>>BCSL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.......>SC

[Darkstarshades]

BC&SL>>>>>>DT12>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Boyfriend (JB)>>>>>>>>>>>>I&W