Criticism around the web of post-Portnoy DT

[bosk1]

We all like what we like, right? "Images and Words" is a landmark album.  Not just for Dream Theater either, but for progressive music in general.  I can understand why some people don't like it, but I have to admit it made me LOL pretty hard reading that you like DT12 more.  But like I said, we all like what we like.  There's really no accounting for personal tastes, which are not always rational.  Some of my personal tastes in music would probably surprise a lot of people.

I like DT12 more than I like Images and Words.  AND I consider Images and Words a landmark album.  Let's face it, Images is a spectacular album.  But its "landmark album" status is in terms of the mark it made far outside of the quality of the album.  For my tastes, although I love Images and think the many, many highs on that album are some of DT's finest, DT12 is more consistently high-quality for my tastes.

[rumborak]

Come ooooooonnnnn, bosk. IAW better than DT12? Not in a million years.

[hefdaddy42]

Come ooooooonnnnn, bosk. IAW better than DT12? Not in a million years.

For his tastes.

I mean, I don't understand it either, but I certainly believe him.

[Calvin6s]

I like DT12 more than I like Images and Words.

We all have our guilty pleasures.   

[erwinrafael]

We all like what we like, right? "Images and Words" is a landmark album.  Not just for Dream Theater either, but for progressive music in general.  I can understand why some people don't like it, but I have to admit it made me LOL pretty hard reading that you like DT12 more.  But like I said, we all like what we like.  There's really no accounting for personal tastes, which are not always rational.  Some of my personal tastes in music would probably surprise a lot of people.

I like DT12 more than I like Images and Words.  AND I consider Images and Words a landmark album.  Let's face it, Images is a spectacular album.  But its "landmark album" status is in terms of the mark it made far outside of the quality of the album.  For my tastes, although I love Images and think the many, many highs on that album are some of DT's finest, DT12 is more consistently high-quality for my tastes.

Agree with you here. I also would like to add that IAW is very much a product of its time. If you ask me fifteen years ago, maybe Images and Words would rank really high. But it does sort of wears its timestamp on its sleeve, and I just can not imagine some of the songs there being produced right now. Learning to Live, for example, has a very early 1990s feel to it, especially the chorus and the bass lines. Another Day is long-hair band, late 1980s, with a sax solo. So it is a landmark album, very good for its time. Still good today, but my musical tastes have moved on.

[Calvin6s]

but my musical tastes have moved on.

why?  If you like something, you like something.  I still have songs I loved from the 80s in my rotation today.

[erwinrafael]

but my musical tastes have moved on.

why?  If you like something, you like something.  I still have songs I loved from the 80s in my rotation today.

I have grown? My musical tastes expanded. I have lots of old favorites that did not lose their appeal. Late Beatles and early Queen, for example. Some songs just age better, I guess. Metropolis, for example, is really a timeless classic for me. Awake, my favorite album, also aged really well. Some did not. For example, LtL really gives me images of people with black leather pants, and guys like Jimmy Smits on the TV.   

[Rodni Demental]

Easy. You're listening to how the music is being played. What is the tone of the instruments like? How is James' singing? How are they articulating? My main issue is I don't hear any excitement in the performance. Everything is at a plodding tempo and I don't hear much energy.

So it is an inference, and if we go by theories of cognition, these actually speak more about the state of the observer than the object being observed. Which basically means, most likely, the perceived lack of excitement is more about the observer's own lack of excitement about the song, rather than the artists' lack of energy.

Just wanted to echo this comment a little (and potentially develop it into madness  ). For all I know there may be validity to some of the claims about varying levels of different kinds of 'energy'. But I dunno if we can prove or justify these claims without bias or getting more information from the band members about their experience. In any case, projection is something that everyone does, a lot. That's at the core of the argument of relativism and point of view interpretation, that results in subjectivity filtering all kinds of objectivity. Just to get all oxymoron on everyone's ass; objectively speaking I don't see how we can pretend absolute objectivity can be attained through a subjective experiential interpretation...

We all like what we like, right? "Images and Words" is a landmark album.  Not just for Dream Theater either, but for progressive music in general.  I can understand why some people don't like it, but I have to admit it made me LOL pretty hard reading that you like DT12 more.  But like I said, we all like what we like.  There's really no accounting for personal tastes, which are not always rational.  Some of my personal tastes in music would probably surprise a lot of people.

I like DT12 more than I like Images and Words.  AND I consider Images and Words a landmark album.  Let's face it, Images is a spectacular album.  But its "landmark album" status is in terms of the mark it made far outside of the quality of the album.  For my tastes, although I love Images and think the many, many highs on that album are some of DT's finest, DT12 is more consistently high-quality for my tastes.

This might be slightly against the grain but I agree with this too. To say this doesn't detract anything from I&W, although it'd be easy enough to assume one could be indirectly implying something about I&W, based on the various conceptions some of us have for DT12. Personally I think it's an amazingly consistent album and among their best (as with I&W). Also I&W has been put on a pedestal, and while I appreciate it's significance for DTs career and success, it's godlike status is a bit unrealistic. Though still a great album. 

[BlobVanDam]

If something is truly great, it will have longevity regardless of being a product of its time. A lot of their newer songs may sound current now, but will sound equally dated over time. But if it's good now, it will still be good in the future.

[Calvin6s]

but my musical tastes have moved on.

why?  If you like something, you like something.  I still have songs I loved from the 80s in my rotation today.

I have grown? My musical tastes expanded.

Expansion means adding, not deleting.  You don't have to "readjust" your feelings for old songs just because styles are expanding the possibilities.

Production can be dated, but songwriting isn't "dated" (used in the negative connotation).  Songwriting is just putting emotion to sound.  Sad, angry, happy, etc. feel the same then as now.

Thankfully Prog Metal fans are bad about using "dated" too loosely, but hip hop fans might be the worst.  You don't have to claim the past is bad to justify the present.

[ytserush]

I'm in the minority but I've always likes BC&SL more than SC.

Not sure that is a minority opinion. I like it better too.

So do I.

Always have.

[rumborak]

[Scorpion]

The way that photo is presented along with the superimposed text makes it look like a ad for shampoo or something. Just add a "L'Oreal Paris" at the top and you're good to go.

[ariich]

but my musical tastes have moved on.

why?  If you like something, you like something.  I still have songs I loved from the 80s in my rotation today.

I have grown? My musical tastes expanded.

Expansion means adding, not deleting.  You don't have to "readjust" your feelings for old songs just because styles are expanding the possibilities.

Production can be dated, but songwriting isn't "dated" (used in the negative connotation).  Songwriting is just putting emotion to sound.  Sad, angry, happy, etc. feel the same then as now.

Thankfully Prog Metal fans are bad about using "dated" too loosely, but hip hop fans might be the worst.  You don't have to claim the past is bad to justify the present.

Yep, this is all pretty spot on.

[erwinrafael]

but my musical tastes have moved on.

why?  If you like something, you like something.  I still have songs I loved from the 80s in my rotation today.

I have grown? My musical tastes expanded.

Expansion means adding, not deleting.  You don't have to "readjust" your feelings for old songs just because styles are expanding the possibilities.

Production can be dated, but songwriting isn't "dated" (used in the negative connotation).  Songwriting is just putting emotion to sound.  Sad, angry, happy, etc. feel the same then as now.

Thankfully Prog Metal fans are bad about using "dated" too loosely, but hip hop fans might be the worst.  You don't have to claim the past is bad to justify the present.

Why can't songwriting be dated? It can. I am not even forcing anybody to agree, but there are songs in I&W that sounds dated to me and never stood the test of time. I am not using the datedness to justify the present, I am using it to explain why I&W is not that high in my ranking today.

[BlackInk]

While I don't agree that I&W is dated (except for the production of course), I don't understand what there is to not understand about 'moving on' from stuff that you used to like. For example, when I was younger I used to love Nightwish, but when I listen to it these days I just don't think it's especially good. I have simply moved on from that type of music.

[King Postwhore]

Dated is a preference really.  Today's growling is something I'm not fond of.  It started in the late 1980's and is prominent now but I just don't like it.  It's about personal tastes.

[KevShmev]

Something doesn't have to have that timeless feel to it, like it could come from any era, to be great. Some things are like a snapshot in time, and I&W is definitely one from its time. 

[King Postwhore]

Something doesn't have to have that timeless feel to it, like it could come from any era, to be great. Some things are like a snapshot in time, and I&W is definitely one from its time.

Agreed.  we all feel a bit like that.  I think for some who come into a band in the middle or later in their career they hear the 1st few albums and it seems so dated.  That happens with any band with longevity.  My favorite band, Rush, has it's self titled album that I really don't listen to much.  It's dated to me but at the time, it was relevant for that "snapshot" moment.

[erwinrafael]

Something doesn't have to have that timeless feel to it, like it could come from any era, to be great. Some things are like a snapshot in time, and I&W is definitely one from its time.

You know what, I think I would agree with this. I do however find myself appreciating more songs that had this air of timelessness. For example, the second half of Awake, for me, sounds like something I could still hear being priduced today. Same goes for Trial of Tears and Peruvian Skies.

[Prog Snob]

What are we basing this off of, this notion that something is dated?  Because it's not popular or just because people don't write music like it anymore?  I don't think either of those is a rational reason to call something dated.  Suddenly we're the fashion police of music....   

[Setlist Scotty]

but my musical tastes have moved on.

why?  If you like something, you like something.  I still have songs I loved from the 80s in my rotation today.

I have grown? My musical tastes expanded.

Expansion means adding, not deleting.  You don't have to "readjust" your feelings for old songs just because styles are expanding the possibilities.

Production can be dated, but songwriting isn't "dated" (used in the negative connotation).  Songwriting is just putting emotion to sound.  Sad, angry, happy, etc. feel the same then as now.

Thankfully Prog Metal fans are bad about using "dated" too loosely, but hip hop fans might be the worst.  You don't have to claim the past is bad to justify the present.

Why can't songwriting be dated? It can. I am not even forcing anybody to agree, but there are songs in I&W that sounds dated to me and never stood the test of time. I am not using the datedness to justify the present, I am using it to explain why I&W is not that high in my ranking today.

I won't say that songwriting is dated like erwinrafael, but there are times when people do change and music they once listened to and thoroughly enjoyed doesn't have the same appeal as before, or maybe they actively dislike it now. A perfect example for me is Pain of Salvation's music. I wouldn't call anything they did (specifically the first 6 studio albums) as being dated. And I got into them before The Perfect Element was released - loved them and listened to them with a passion. However, over time I lost interest - and not because of the changes in sound or musical style (as was the case with some fans, beginning with their BE album) but they just don't have any appeal to me anymore so that I have zero desire to listen to them now. Perhaps the situation is similar for erwinrafael.

[ariich]

What are we basing this off of, this notion that something is dated?  Because it's not popular or just because people don't write music like it anymore?  I don't think either of those is a rational reason to call something dated.  Suddenly we're the fashion police of music....   

Can't work out if you're disagreeing with how people seem to be defining dated, or whether you disagree with the concept of anything being "dated" in general.

If it's the latter, then I guess it's partly a case of things not really being done anymore, but that tends to be more of a technological thing, with regard to production quality, etc. With the more artistic choices, I think it's more about things that were introduced and popular for a short while and then disappeared from common use again. The kind of triggered drums that we hear on I&W, for example, were only really used commonly for a decade or two. Stylistically, songs like Another Day are also rather a product of their time. So hearing them now, yes I would say there are various things about I&W that are dated.

But Kev has it spot on - dated does not necessarily mean bad. Indeed, some things, like I&W, are an excellent snapshop of the time.

[bl5150]

Oh for some dated I&W production 

[Prog Snob]

What are we basing this off of, this notion that something is dated?  Because it's not popular or just because people don't write music like it anymore?  I don't think either of those is a rational reason to call something dated.  Suddenly we're the fashion police of music....   

Can't work out if you're disagreeing with how people seem to be defining dated, or whether you disagree with the concept of anything being "dated" in general.

If it's the latter, then I guess it's partly a case of things not really being done anymore, but that tends to be more of a technological thing, with regard to production quality, etc. With the more artistic choices, I think it's more about things that were introduced and popular for a short while and then disappeared from common use again. The kind of triggered drums that we hear on I&W, for example, were only really used commonly for a decade or two. Stylistically, songs like Another Day are also rather a product of their time. So hearing them now, yes I would say there are various things about I&W that are dated.

But Kev has it spot on - dated does not necessarily mean bad. Indeed, some things, like I&W, are an excellent snapshop of the time.

I guess a little of both.  Maybe I am getting a little too philosophical with this one.  Who gets to decide what dated is?  What makes Images and Words dated?  I know you're defining Another Day and triggered drums as dated but what constitutes those things as being dated? Is it based on how many people are still using the same technology?  Not trying to pick an argument at all by the way.  I'm just wondering why it's dated.

[Stadler]

I could be wrong, but I sort of assume that the conventional definition of dated is being used, which to my mind is "reminiscient of a certain specific time", and can be placed in that specific time pretty easily.  Different than "retro", which is reminiscient of a certain specific time", but is of uncertain time in and of itself.

[emtee]

Dated to me is 99.9% production and sound. I remember hearing 45's of my parents of The Everly Brothers and from the 60's all the way
through the late 90's there are very specific trends that link to a certain time. The music itself, from any era can sound fresh and current
when played live.

[PwnsomeWin]

This has probably been stated, but ADToE and DT12 aren't different because of Mangini IMO. That's a naive statement, as Portnoy didn't have TOO much to do with the writing process outside of drums and 12 step suite. Regardless, it's noticeable that DT was on their way to the sound of DT12 and ADToE. And I'm not saying that in a bad way, but Black Clouds does sound like a transition to the sound of ADToE and DT12.

Personally, I think that ADToE and DT12 are weaker, and more generic sounding. The songs aren't as diverse sounding; but they have a habit of having an interesting intro that leads to the same generic sound (Behind the Veil, Bridges in the Sky) or just a part that really seperates it from the rest of the song/album (IT middle strings part, most of Enigma Machine). I don't think it's the end of good DT, though. Just change of sound.

[TheCountOfNYC]

This has probably been stated, but ADToE and DT12 aren't different because of Mangini IMO. That's a naive statement, as Portnoy didn't have TOO much to do with the writing process outside of drums and 12 step suite. Regardless, it's noticeable that DT was on their way to the sound of DT12 and ADToE. And I'm not saying that in a bad way, but Black Clouds does sound like a transition to the sound of ADToE and DT12.

Personally, I think that ADToE and DT12 are weaker, and more generic sounding. The songs aren't as diverse sounding; but they have a habit of having an interesting intro that leads to the same generic sound (Behind the Veil, Bridges in the Sky) or just a part that really seperates it from the rest of the song/album (IT middle strings part, most of Enigma Machine). I don't think it's the end of good DT, though. Just change of sound.

I'm not specifically attacking you, but I really hate when people say that MP didn't have much to do with the writing process. To me there is a clear difference in the way that the songs are arranged since Portnoy left and to my ears they sound more disjointed. I listen to a song like The Dance of Eternity and even in all of it's craziness, it still sounds far more cohesive than a song like Enigma Machine and the worst offender in terms of sounding like a mess, Outcry. Portnoy had an ear for where every note played should go. The songwriting is clearly different because unlike what a lot of people say, they lost a key songwriter and a strong voice in the room. I still love them and think that they're the best band on the planet, but they're music has definitely changed because of the drummer switch.

[Calvin6s]

Dated was clearly being used in the negative context.  Dated itself is a negative word.  The neutral word is era.

[Mosh]

I disagree. I&W is dated but that's part of its charm. If you tried to modernize its sound you'd be taking away a lot from what makes it so great. It can be a positive thing.

[ariich]

Dated was clearly being used in the negative context.  Dated itself is a negative word.  The neutral word is era.

Some individuals may see dated as equalling bad. That's their prerogative, everyone has their own preferences. But the two are non synonymous, and many of us do not consider dated to automatically mean bad.

[Stadler]

This has probably been stated, but ADToE and DT12 aren't different because of Mangini IMO. That's a naive statement, as Portnoy didn't have TOO much to do with the writing process outside of drums and 12 step suite. Regardless, it's noticeable that DT was on their way to the sound of DT12 and ADToE. And I'm not saying that in a bad way, but Black Clouds does sound like a transition to the sound of ADToE and DT12.

Personally, I think that ADToE and DT12 are weaker, and more generic sounding. The songs aren't as diverse sounding; but they have a habit of having an interesting intro that leads to the same generic sound (Behind the Veil, Bridges in the Sky) or just a part that really seperates it from the rest of the song/album (IT middle strings part, most of Enigma Machine). I don't think it's the end of good DT, though. Just change of sound.

I'm not specifically attacking you, but I really hate when people say that MP didn't have much to do with the writing process. To me there is a clear difference in the way that the songs are arranged since Portnoy left and to my ears they sound more disjointed. I listen to a song like The Dance of Eternity and even in all of it's craziness, it still sounds far more cohesive than a song like Enigma Machine and the worst offender in terms of sounding like a mess, Outcry. Portnoy had an ear for where every note played should go. The songwriting is clearly different because unlike what a lot of people say, they lost a key songwriter and a strong voice in the room. I still love them and think that they're the best band on the planet, but they're music has definitely changed because of the drummer switch.

I'm with the Count on this.  I think the arrangements alone are a huge thing, and not a skill that everyone just "has".   I know there were a LOT of comments about "I didn't like this section here" or "that section there" on the last two albums that weren't really prevalent in the MP era.  Controversial, I know, but I think Mike was the guy that would often tell James how the vocals should sound, and with one exception (This Is The Life) I think JLB pushed himself (or was pushed) harder in the MP era.  I don't think you can understate MP's input to the music (and "the drums" is severely understating it). 

[hefdaddy42]

I think the arrangements alone are a huge thing, and not a skill that everyone just "has".   I know there were a LOT of comments about "I didn't like this section here" or "that section there" on the last two albums that weren't really prevalent in the MP era. 

Not for the era as a whole, but they became a lot more prevalent on the last two albums of MP's time.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I think the arrangements alone are a huge thing, and not a skill that everyone just "has".   I know there were a LOT of comments about "I didn't like this section here" or "that section there" on the last two albums that weren't really prevalent in the MP era. 

Not for the era as a whole, but they became a lot more prevalent on the last two albums of MP's time.

And rightly so. I'm a staunch defender of both albums, but there's little doubt they're less tightly arranged and have more questionable sections (often from JR, but sometimes JP) than SFAM or even 8V. That said, the middle of Outcry is the nadir of the band in terms of this aspect (which is a shame, because the song has some good riffs, a great chorus, and even in the instrumental there are a couple of good ideas). I don't think we'd have seen issues of that magnitude with MP. Just speculation of course, but he did add some quality control.