Criticism around the web of post-Portnoy DT

[rumborak]

I can definitely agree with that. Of all changes and influences over the years, the switch to RR was the biggest. They changed their whole public image to "grimy metal", and the first album under RR, Systematic Chaos, would (until DT12) be their most heavily compressed for a long time.

[Madman Shepherd]

I'm not suggesting that the MUSIC is different per se since MM joined the band. What I'm suggesting is the energy and chemistry has changed. That's not necessarily a bad thing; but it's a different band. People who expect the band to be exactly the same album after album have the hardest time accepting this. It's not just DT. Bands change, and those changes while not always obvious do make a difference. Hopefully (for my tastes) the bands I enjoy are always looking to change, grow, or evolve. But even if they try not to, with a personnel change it's nearly a given, even if it's subtle.

True, but I do think the energy right before MP left was at an all-time low.

I'd say ADTOE was their all time low for energy.

Ya know, you can say what you want about that album and whether the music sucks or the sound sucks but I really don't think you can claim they had low energy for that.  They were more energized than ever.  James said, "Hey, I want to record vocals my way."  John Myung said, "Hey, I'm feeling the urge to write lyrics again."  Jordan and the other John said, "We don't want to write an album the old tired way of just getting together and jamming until we come up something resembling an album."    Their "energy" was at the highest peak at had been in quite a while and I really don't think that is debatable. 

[KevShmev]

Agreed.  Not liking the album that much is one thing, but saying it had low energy just seems like another way of saying you don't like it. 

[Mosh]

I dunno, maybe it's the production or something else but the whole album sounds like "another day at the office" for DT. It seems intentional too, like they were trying to prove they could still deliver by keeping it safe and not being too bold. As a result, the performance and writing sounds stale.

[BlobVanDam]

Agreed.  Not liking the album that much is one thing, but saying it had low energy just seems like another way of saying you don't like it. 

I actually do like it despite considering it one of their weakest albums, so that's wrong.

Ya know, you can say what you want about that album and whether the music sucks or the sound sucks but I really don't think you can claim they had low energy for that.  They were more energized than ever.  James said, "Hey, I want to record vocals my way."  John Myung said, "Hey, I'm feeling the urge to write lyrics again."  Jordan and the other John said, "We don't want to write an album the old tired way of just getting together and jamming until we come up something resembling an album."    Their "energy" was at the highest peak at had been in quite a while and I really don't think that is debatable. 

It's absolutely debatable. Why wouldn't it be? Ya know, you can say what you want about the album, but it's still just your opinion. You're basically saying your opinion is so right that it's not even debatable, which is absurd.
The album doesn't sound at all energized to me, it sounds flat and lifeless, like they were going through the motions out of routine to churn out an album before even hiring a drummer. The album didn't have any of the inspired high points I expect from DT's music.

[hefdaddy42]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't understand it either.  I think the energy level is much higher than on the preceding 2 albums.  Nothing tired or run-of-the-mill sounding about it to me, unlike with them.

[BlobVanDam]

And I don't at all understand the opinion that SC or BCASL sound tired, because SC especially sounds full of fresh energy and fun. But each to their own. I don't try to dismiss other people's opinions as not even being debatable.

[King Postwhore]

I'm in the minority but I've always likes BC&SL more than SC.

[hefdaddy42]

And I don't at all understand the opinion that SC or BCASL sound tired, because SC especially sounds full of fresh energy and fun. But each to their own. I don't try to dismiss other people's opinions as not even being debatable.

That's cool, esse

[rumborak]

I'm in the minority but I've always likes BC&SL more than SC.

Not sure that is a minority opinion. I like it better too.

[SuperTaco]

I dunno, maybe it's the production

That. I think the guys were full of energy when they wrote/recorded the album, but the production/mixing takes away some of that natural energy. It lacks power and definition. I still enjoy the unique sonic atmosphere that it projects, but it's a softer sound.

[Prog Snob]

Why are we deciding the amount of energy or lack thereof that the guys had?  I highly doubt they dragged their feet in there, spent weeks writing and recording with mopey faces, and went "ok guys. this is it. we did it again. every two years like clockwork. i don't know about you James but I am just seething with elation."  MP felt that way obviously and wanted to change it up a bit and take a break.  Apparently the other guys disagreed and I think ADTOE is their best release since Six Degrees. I felt like they wrote music they felt like writing. It wasn't the MP machine making James sound like Muse or James Hetfield.  I think the lyrics on ADTOE were more inspiring than the previous two releases. I think having the new drummer breathed new life into the band and they were excited to turn out music they wanted to.

[King Postwhore]

I'm in the minority but I've always likes BC&SL more than SC.

Not sure that is a minority opinion. I like it better too.

I read a lot of praise for SC here.  Maybe it's the same people or the minority is always the most boisterous.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Praise for SC? From people other than Xbob? Can't say I've ever seen that myself.

[BlobVanDam]

Praise for SC? Please link me to this mythical place.





Please. It sounds wonderful.

[emtee]

I really like both SC and BC&SL. And I think the sonic values of BC&SL are among the best in DT's discography.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm in the minority but I've always likes BC&SL more than SC.

Not sure that is a minority opinion. I like it better too.

I read a lot of praise for SC here.  Maybe it's the same people or the minority is always the most boisterous.

I see more like for SC than for BC&SL, but not an overload for either.

As it should be.

[King Postwhore]

Praise was a strong word but I do see people talk about how they like it.  Hef said it better than I did.

[bosk1]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, SC is a really inconsistent album.  I will praise it because the best parts are as good as anything they have written.  But the worst parts are among the worst they have written.  I think it is really in par with Images and Words in that regard.  There is some fantastic stuff, but the inconsistency drags it down in the rankings as an album. 

I will "praise" it because, all told, it is a good album.  But by DT standards, it is not as strong or consistent as a lot of their other work.

[fischermasamune]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, SC is a really inconsistent album.  I will praise it because the best parts are as good as anything they have written.  But the worst parts are among the worst they have written.  I think it is really in par with Images and Words in that regard.  There is some fantastic stuff, but the inconsistency drags it down in the rankings as an album.

What are exactly the "among the worst" parts of I&W?

[bosk1]

Another Day is the chief offender.  But Take The Time and Surrounded definitely belong in that category as well.

[hefdaddy42]

Sorry you don't like them.  Since they are 100% awesome.

[Another_Won]

Another Day is the chief offender.  But Take The Time and Surrounded definitely belong in that category as well.

I'm with you on that, except for Take the Time.  That one is decent, no?  Surrounded and Another Day are more "balady" so I can see that.

[BlackInk]

I haven't always been a big fan of Surrounded, but recently I have grown to really enjoy it. And Take the Time is great.

Another Day though, not very good. Pretty cheesy actually. Decent guitar solo, but not much else.

[Dream Team]

Why are we deciding the amount of energy or lack thereof that the guys had?  I highly doubt they dragged their feet in there, spent weeks writing and recording with mopey faces, and went "ok guys. this is it. we did it again. every two years like clockwork. i don't know about you James but I am just seething with elation."  MP felt that way obviously and wanted to change it up a bit and take a break.  Apparently the other guys disagreed and I think ADTOE is their best release since Six Degrees. I felt like they wrote music they felt like writing. It wasn't the MP machine making James sound like Muse or James Hetfield.  I think the lyrics on ADTOE were more inspiring than the previous two releases. I think having the new drummer breathed new life into the band and they were excited to turn out music they wanted to.

Awesome post. The production DECIMATED the energy of ADTOE. Some of those fast sections on LNF, BITS, and Outcry would have been absolutely killer with good production, not to mention the heavy sections.

[Madman Shepherd]

Agreed.  Not liking the album that much is one thing, but saying it had low energy just seems like another way of saying you don't like it. 

I actually do like it despite considering it one of their weakest albums, so that's wrong.

Ya know, you can say what you want about that album and whether the music sucks or the sound sucks but I really don't think you can claim they had low energy for that.  They were more energized than ever.  James said, "Hey, I want to record vocals my way."  John Myung said, "Hey, I'm feeling the urge to write lyrics again."  Jordan and the other John said, "We don't want to write an album the old tired way of just getting together and jamming until we come up something resembling an album."    Their "energy" was at the highest peak at had been in quite a while and I really don't think that is debatable. 

It's absolutely debatable. Why wouldn't it be? Ya know, you can say what you want about the album, but it's still just your opinion. You're basically saying your opinion is so right that it's not even debatable, which is absurd.
The album doesn't sound at all energized to me, it sounds flat and lifeless, like they were going through the motions out of routine to churn out an album before even hiring a drummer. The album didn't have any of the inspired high points I expect from DT's music.

Well obviously its just my opinion but in my opinion I don't see how its debatable.  Your criticism still sounds like you are mainly criticizing the music and not the energy that went into it...in my opinion, of course. 

Praise for SC? Please link me to this mythical place.





Please. It sounds wonderful.

I see it get shit on a lot but I for one figured it was probably one of my two favorite albums (the other being ADTOE, in an ironic turn of events....IDTOE). 

I love the sound, the lyrics, the riffs.  That and ADTOE I find to be perfect albums.  I'm not saying the songs are necessarily better than Metropolis or other legendary tunes but as a whole I find those two albums more consistent than any other without a single bad track. 

[BlobVanDam]

Well obviously its just my opinion but in my opinion I don't see how its debatable.  Your criticism still sounds like you are mainly criticizing the music and not the energy that went into it...in my opinion, of course. 

How would it not be debatable? We're not talking about facts here.
My favourite moments are the sections that do have more energy, like BITS and LNF, but OTBOA for example is so plodding and lacking in energy. It's not to do with the music, but the performance of it. The music is fine.

[TAC]

My favourite moments are the sections that do have more energy, like BITS and LNF, but OTBOA for example is so plodding and lacking in energy.

I agree with this.

[Madman Shepherd]

Well obviously its just my opinion but in my opinion I don't see how its debatable.  Your criticism still sounds like you are mainly criticizing the music and not the energy that went into it...in my opinion, of course. 

How would it not be debatable? We're not talking about facts here.
My favourite moments are the sections that do have more energy, like BITS and LNF, but OTBOA for example is so plodding and lacking in energy. It's not to do with the music, but the performance of it. The music is fine.

So there are some things about the performance on the album that are lacking energy as if they may have not gotten much sleep the night before tracking OTBOA.  OK, big difference between that and saying the band was lacking energy on ADTOE in response to someone saying the band lacked energy in the period up until MP left.  I think we are having a conversation about two different things. 

[erwinrafael]

Well obviously its just my opinion but in my opinion I don't see how its debatable.  Your criticism still sounds like you are mainly criticizing the music and not the energy that went into it...in my opinion, of course. 

How would it not be debatable? We're not talking about facts here.
My favourite moments are the sections that do have more energy, like BITS and LNF, but OTBOA for example is so plodding and lacking in energy. It's not to do with the music, but the performance of it. The music is fine.

How do you separate the performance from the music?

[Mosh]

Easy. You're listening to how the music is being played. What is the tone of the instruments like? How is James' singing? How are they articulating? My main issue is I don't hear any excitement in the performance. Everything is at a plodding tempo and I don't hear much energy.

[seasonsinthesky]

there's a huge difference between high energy as in fast songs vs. high energy of the performers as they wrote and recorded. which one is being discussed? (apparently both, by different people!)

the latter, by interviews (the only way we can know), is factually true. the former is the murky, subjective one.

[erwinrafael]

Easy. You're listening to how the music is being played. What is the tone of the instruments like? How is James' singing? How are they articulating? My main issue is I don't hear any excitement in the performance. Everything is at a plodding tempo and I don't hear much energy.

So it is an inference, and if we go by theories of cognition, these actually speak more about the state of the observer than the object being observed. Which basically means, most likely, the perceived lack of excitement is more about the observer's own lack of excitement about the song, rather than the artists' lack of energy.

[Calvin6s]

Perhaps they were affected by the soda tax / limitations.  Petrucci's secret solo recording trick is a Big Gulp suicide mix.  But he couldn't buy it.  Killed the entire album's energy.

[kirksnosehair]

What do people want?
They want Images and Words re-realased, they want Labrie's voice to, through sorcery and witchcraft, transform back to how it was in 1992

I can only speak for myself, but for my money Dream Theater hit their peak with SDOIT.  They were really firing on all cylinders when I saw them on that tour.   

Reason for this rant?
I just saw someone throwing absolute crap at Illumination Theory (Which I consider to be one of the best stuff DT has created since Octavarium, I agree with the guy that made the appreciaton post).
But making absolutely nonsense points, I'll tell you why.
He was saying that Illumination Theory is just a couple of songs poorly stitched together to create a larger piece, and that it was the first DT epic to sound like several songs glued together... Yet the guy claims SDOIT is the best thing DT has ever done... Really? (And no, it was not a trolling post, it was honest!)

Well, he was right on the money as far as I'm concerned, except I think Octavarium -the song- probably started out as 4 individual songs.  Illumination Theory is quite a bit worse, though.  And that orchestra thing 2/3 of the way through the song?  I still don't know what the point of that is?  It ruins what might have been an actual listenable song.  Every time I listen to this album I skip right past that section.  One of the worst production decisions ever, I thought.

(I also read posts saying that it had blatantly ripped off Tchaivosky's Piano Concerto, and that it sucked because of that)

Eh, I wouldn't call it a blatant ripoff, more like an intentional, broadcasted nod to it.  "Ripped off" makes it sound like he intended to plagiarize, I don't think this rises to that level.

Yet when these people hear works with MP's, even though they had also drawn inspirations from other sources, they instantly say it's an extreme masterpiece.
So is this hatred from the fact that they are too butthurt (like me with this post ugh) with MP being 5 years gone from the group, or is it that DT's music seems to have gone down in quality?

I think there are a lot of fans who are still pissed off about the Portnoy situation.  And he hasn't helped matters with his unfiltered comments on FaceBook, Twitter and his own web site.

I actually rank DT12 much higher than, let's say, Images and Words (Don't get me wrong, I love Metropolis and Another Day, but I just can't say the same for the rest of the album).

We all like what we like, right? "Images and Words" is a landmark album.  Not just for Dream Theater either, but for progressive music in general.  I can understand why some people don't like it, but I have to admit it made me LOL pretty hard reading that you like DT12 more.  But like I said, we all like what we like.  There's really no accounting for personal tastes, which are not always rational.  Some of my personal tastes in music would probably surprise a lot of people.

Now imagine that DT12, instead of having Mangini, it has Portnoy, and that the music stays the same...
Would it get the same hatred it gets? (The same goes for ADTOE)

Now THAT is an interesting thing to ponder.