Criticism around the web of post-Portnoy DT

[Darkstarshades]

So I've been watching several videos around the web and looking at people's reviews on ADTOE and DT12
And many people are qq'ing about GENERAL stuff, not just the drumming, no, the whole DT work.
Why? For various things, it is as if nobody was happy with what they are doing.

What do people want?
They want Images and Words re-realased, they want Labrie's voice to, through sorcery and witchcraft, transform back to how it was in 1992

Reason for this rant?
I just saw someone throwing absolute crap at Illumination Theory (Which I consider to be one of the best stuff DT has created since Octavarium, I agree with the guy that made the appreciaton post).
But making absolutely nonsense points, I'll tell you why.
He was saying that Illumination Theory is just a couple of songs poorly stitched together to create a larger piece, and that it was the first DT epic to sound like several songs glued together... Yet the guy claims SDOIT is the best thing DT has ever done... Really? (And no, it was not a trolling post, it was honest!)
(I also read posts saying that it had blatantly ripped off Tchaivosky's Piano Concerto, and that it sucked because of that)
Yet when these people hear works with MP's, even though they had also drawn inspirations from other sources, they instantly say it's an extreme masterpiece.
So is this hatred from the fact that they are too butthurt (like me with this post ugh) with MP being 5 years gone from the group, or is it that DT's music seems to have gone down in quality?
I actually rank DT12 much higher than, let's say, Images and Words (Don't get me wrong, I love Metropolis and Another Day, but I just can't say the same for the rest of the album).
Now imagine that DT12, instead of having Mangini, it has Portnoy, and that the music stays the same...
Would it get the same hatred it gets? (The same goes for ADTOE)

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I don't dislike the new material because of Mangini. I think he's a pretty awesome guy.

I'm just not super excited about the music DT have been making since he joined the band.

[Tom Bombadil]

If DT12 had Portnoy I would dislike it just the same.

[jmasterx]

DT12 is bad but people blame mangini because of the bad drum sound. But really, the album is not bad because of mangini at all. It just feels kind of uninspired...

[cramx3]

DT12 is great and has very little to do with MM.  His drumming is fine and even amazing at points, but the songs are good IMO.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

DT fans like to bitch about everything. That's the curse of liking prog, the 'intelligent man's rock music'.

[Prog Snob]

I actually prefer DT12 and ADTOE to the last two Portnoy CDs with the band.

[bl5150]

I actually prefer DT12 and ADTOE to the last two Portnoy CDs with the band.

I prefer them to pretty much everything else post KM.

[425]

I prefer ADTOE to anything that doesn't have a burning heart and a four-poster bed on the cover. But that's neither here nor there.

A lot of fans are casual fans. Portnoy was the face of the band for a lot of people, and there's undeniably been changes since he left in both the music and PR departments. So there's that. And there's also the fact that, for a lot of people in the case of a lot of bands, the new will never live up to the old. People have had years and years to form emotional attachments to albums like IAW and SFAM, and the newer material just doesn't have that for some of them. Others will never give the new stuff a chance because they're more casual fans who liked one particular style that DT had and don't appreciate the changes they've undergone since the days of that style. Others just grab on to the assumption that new material is always a pale imitation of old material. Still others legitimately gave the new material a shot and didn't like it. Regardless, these types of comments are par for the course with a band's later material, especially after replacing a beloved member. I wouldn't worry so much about them.

[Darkstarshades]

BC&SL was pretty cool tho, even though it felt more like a bonus songs CD, rather than a standalone album.
In fact, when I first heard it, I tho it was something of scrapped song compilation, just because it felt short for me and mostly... Weird, then I realized it was in fact an album  xD.
Now, DT12 is cool, very cool, awesome, and way above in quality than its 2 predecessors.

[BlobVanDam]

DT12 is one of my least favourite DT albums, and I wouldn't enjoy DT12 any more if it had MP on it (although it wouldn't have been the same album with MP on it). To me IT does sound stitched together. It has nothing to do with the fact MP left the band and got replaced by MM. And SDOIT is my favourite song by DT.
So I'm not seeing a problem, except for getting too butthurt by other people's opinions.

(I wouldn't have used that term except you used it in the OP, so just kidding )

[Darkstarshades]

DT12 is one of my least favourite DT albums, and I wouldn't enjoy DT12 any more if it had MP on it (although it wouldn't have been the same album with MP on it). To me IT does sound stitched together. It has nothing to do with the fact MP left the band and got replaced by MM. And SDOIT is my favourite song by DT.
So I'm not seeing a problem, except for getting too butthurt by other people's opinions.

(I wouldn't have used that term except you used it in the OP, so just kidding )

SDOIT is my 2nd favorite all time by DT, second only to Octavarium.
However, I said that because the argument of IT is crap because it sounds like a couple of songs placed together is... dumb, considering the guy loves SDOIT. Simply said it to make a point xD (altho get the joke)
And yes, I am butthurt lol

[ariich]

This thread is meaningless, because there is no such thing as a "general fanbase" when it comes to DT.

[hefdaddy42]

Opinions

Have yours.  Don't care about others.

[King Postwhore]

Though, the minority is always the loudest in all aspects of life.

[hefdaddy42]

Also, who gives a fuck about what some loser on youtube thinks?

Yeah, some people haven't liked the last two albums.  But a lot of people HAVE liked them too.

I've been a DT fan a long time.  This happens for almost every album.

[King Postwhore]

Probably some nerd in his basement or dark room typing out a manifesto for... his...st....




Crap, I'm typing from a dark room right now.

[Sycsa]

Though, the minority is always the loudest in all aspects of life.

This, or in a forum's case, negative opinions tend to get repeated by the same users multiple times, not so much for positive ones. Based on a bunch of polls, above 80% of DTF has a positive opinion regarding ADTOE and DT12. I think they're the best DT albums since SDOIT (maybe even SFAM) and BTFW is their pivotal live release, while the MM era is a great time to be a DT fan.

[Kotowboy]

I hate MP - but i've always given his side projects a go incase I like the music.

Only it gets harder and harder with each of his public outbursts.

And as I said in another thread - i've gotten bored of the same 5 drum fills.

[BlobVanDam]

Though, the minority is always the loudest in all aspects of life.

This, or in a forum's case, negative opinions tend to get repeated by the same users multiple times, not so much for positive ones. Based on a bunch of polls, above 80% of DTF has a positive opinion regarding ADTOE and DT12. I think they're the best DT albums since SDOIT (maybe even SFAM) and BTFW is their pivotal live release, while the MM era is a great time to be a DT fan.

If you consider "average" to be a positive vote.
The recent ranking thread puts it into perspective. ADTOE is a bit over the place in ranking, but seems to rank right in the middle overall. DT12 appears to average out noticeably lower. Of course these are only relative measurements of quality, so obviously that's not saying people necessarily dislike these albums. Many fans like me like most of the albums regardless of where they rank against the others.

[rumborak]

DTF's rankings are pretty consistent with other online rankings. It's somewhere at the top of the "tier 2" albums. So, not comparable (and not by a good distance) to IAW/SFAM/Awake/SDOIT/ToT (which are the tier 1 albums), but just "good average", so to speak.

[Sycsa]

DTF's rankings are pretty consistent with other online rankings. It's somewhere at the top of the "tier 2" albums. So, not comparable (and not by a good distance) to IAW/SFAM/Awake/SDOIT/ToT (which are the tier 1 albums), but just "good average", so to speak.

I doubt ToT is a tier 1 album (probably not a coincidence you mentioned it last). I'll give you the rest, but both Awake and SDOIT are somewhat controversial. I think the only clear t1 albums that virtually everyone can agree on are IaW & SFaM. The rest comes after.

[rumborak]

We had a thread about the rankings a while ago. This one is based on RYM rankings:



So, yeah, ToT is indeed straggling both tiers. But Awake is solid tier 1, nothing controversial there

Regarding the notion that people somehow unduly criticize post-MP, not so. If you look at the graph, rankers have not considered any album of the last 13 years a tier 1 album, long before MP left.

[gmillerdrake]

I actually prefer DT12 and ADTOE to the last two Portnoy CDs with the band.

This. Although there were instances of 'cool' parts of songs on SC and BC&SL.....ADTOE and DT12 feel and sound like more complete songs. And, speaking of the MP thing.....I personally feel like his drumming on those two CD's wasn't as inspired.....it was 'basic' MP. I can see why he wanted a break because you could hear how tired he was in those last two efforts.

[gmillerdrake]

Though, the minority is always the loudest in all aspects of life.

[425]

Yeah, as for that recent rankings thread... I'm getting on those calculations right now, so in a few hours I'll post a new thread with the composite rankings according to what people posted in my thread.

[Sycsa]

So, yeah, ToT is indeed straggling both tiers. But Awake is solid tier 1, nothing controversial there

What's funny? The graph only further proves my point that I&W and SFAM are the clear fan favorites, a tier above the rest, if you will. Awake, and everything else, comes after. None of them would ever have the chance to usurp either I&W or SFAM.

[erwinrafael]

The thread with the votes in posts instead of a silent poll? PostMP DT Material of any kind always get relatively more negative results in vocal posts than silent polls.

[erwinrafael]

So, yeah, ToT is indeed straggling both tiers. But Awake is solid tier 1, nothing controversial there

What's funny? The graph only further proves my point that I&W and SFAM are the clear fan favorites, a tier above the rest, if you will. Awake, and everything else, comes after. None of them would ever have the chance to usurp either I&W or SFAM.

Which is unfortunate. Like Beatles fans never got to dig the music as the babd evolved.

[425]

Yeah, I think Sycsa is right in that IAW and SFAM are the clear top two, and then Awake and SDOIT come next, with most people really loving those but the rare person ranking them low (like me and SDOIT).

The thread with the votes in posts instead of a silent poll? PostMP DT Material of any kind always get relatively more negative results in vocal posts than silent polls.

The thread that I started with the votes in the posts is what I'm calculating now. Are you honestly suggesting that people are under-ranking the Mangini albums just because other people can see their votes?

[erwinrafael]

What I mean is that the ones who do not like those albums are actually very vocal. They post a lot. Just making an observation that the silent polls usually do not give a very negative public opinion on the last two albums relative to what one would see from vocal posts.

[425]

That's definitely true. What I'm talking about though is the thread that I posted a couple of weeks ago called "The Unofficial DTF Album Ranking Project," where everyone posted their album ranking. I see no reason to believe that thread won't result in an accurate calculation of the forum's opinion as it relates to those albums.

[BlobVanDam]

What I mean is that the ones who do not like those albums are actually very vocal. They post a lot. Just making an observation that the silent polls usually do not give a very negative public opinion on the last two albums relative to what one would see from vocal posts.

There's nothing "vocal" about posting a general ranking that has nothing to do specifically with the MM albums. Everyone has the same opportunity to post their opinion, so this is completely unfounded. There's not a contradiction between the poll results and the ranking results.

I'm interested to see the results. At a quick guess, I'd estimate ADTOE would come in around 5/6, and DT12 around 7/8.

[rumborak]

I think there's two reasons why people are more vocal:
1. They are simply the most recent albums. People are likely to have stronger feelings about them than decades-old albums
2. There was a bit of a "sobering up" period I think. With MM joining the ranks, I think a lot of people were hoping that DT would soar to new heights. When it turned out that they would continue the trajectory they were on before, I think people got vocal about their disappointment.

[erwinrafael]

That's definitely true. What I'm talking about though is the thread that I posted a couple of weeks ago called "The Unofficial DTF Album Ranking Project," where everyone posted their album ranking. I see no reason to believe that thread won't result in an accurate calculation of the forum's opinion as it relates to those albums.

Just compare it with the results of the DT12 is... thread. That thread asked for a DT12 rating relative to other DT albums (options are _____ for a DT album. In that silent poll, the ranking is just slightly above average, so you would expect that it would be around 4-6. But if you go to the raning thread, I doubt if DT12 would even make the middle third. Most likely it would be around 8-10.

Yes, everybody is allowed to vote in the vocal posts, but there is also a social psychological effect of not wanting to have your post up for public scrutiny, especially if contrary opinions already dominate the thread from the onset.