Author Topic: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings  (Read 6613 times)

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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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This is inspired by the recent Octavarium vs Systematic Chaos thread. I realized that Six Degrees and Black Clouds are also very similarly structured, maybe even more so. This may not seem like much of a competition at first glance with SDoIT often being regarded as one of Dream Theater's top albums and BC&SL usually being considered one of their worst, but I think when comparing individual songs, these albums are a little closer than many may think. This thread will show if I'm right or not. I'll start it off.

The Glass Prison vs A Nightmare to Remember

Both albums start off with a long, epic, and heavy track. Both are incredible songs that really help set the tone for the rest of the album. Both songs have their signature moments (TGP's intro and ANTR's Beautiful Agony section) and instrumental sections highlighted by shredding solos from Jordan and John. This is a tough one to choose for me, but I feel that A Nightmare to Remember has a little bit more depth to it, and while it's lows are lower than The Glass Prison's lows, it's highs are higher.

Winner: A Nightmare to Remember


Blind Faith vs A Rite of Passage

Both of these songs are about somewhat controversial subjects and are also controversial songs among forum members. Both have great solo sections as well. But this one isn't close for me like the last one. Blind Faith has better lyrics, better music, and it's solo section is world's ahead of A Rite of Passage's solo section. While Blind Faith isn't one of my favorite DT songs, AROP is one of my least favorites.

Winner: Blind Faith


Misunderstood vs Wither

This is a battle between each album's respective ballad (although Misunderstood barely qualifies as a ballad). I love the lyrics to both of these. John Petrucci really dug deep within himself for these words and both feel really vulnerable and real. For me, Misunderstood wins because while the end drags a little too long and can be grating after awhile, the rest of the song is overall better and I associate with the lyrical content more even though I have a lot of experience with both.

Winner: Misunderstood


The Great Debate vs The Shattered Fortress

Here is another battle between two controversial songs, although for different reasons. The Great Debate has the band's most controversial lyrics to date, while The Shattered Fortress is song that many on these forums have vastly different opinions on, with some considering it a masterpiece and some considering a mess. The Great Debate on the other hand is generally regarded as one of their best songs. My opinion on the two songs is different than the general forum consensus. I think The Great Debate, while a great song, is not among their best songs while The Shattered Fortress is among the best and is the best part of the Twelve Step Suite.

Winner: The Shattered Fortress


Disappear vs The Best of Times

Easily the most depressing songs from each album, both deal with death, although TBoT deals with it on a more personal level. These songs are pretty close in quality for me, with Disappear maybe even getting the edge... until The Best of Times' solo kicks in. This to me is the greatest guitar solo ever played by anybody regardless of band or genre. The notes and the effects JP chose are perfect and he packed so much emotion into every pick stroke. I want to personally thank him for this solo one day. The solo is enough to give TBoT the edge in this one.

Winner: The Best of Times.


Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs The Count of Tuscany

These are absolutely incredible pieces of music. Both are by far the best song on each album. I can go on forever about these two songs, but I'll try to keep it short. This is the hardest of the six matchups for me to decide on. I hate to see either one lose, but there has to be a winner. Both do a great job of telling their respective story, and musically they are almost flawless. Lyrically, SDoIT is definitely better. Musically, TCoT goes on a better journey. In the end, both are incredible pieces, but I have to make a decision, and the winner by a close margin is The Count of Tuscany.

Winner: The Count of Tuscany


Now I want to make a point that while BC&SL won more matchups, I actually prefer SDoIT. While BC&SL's highs are higher, it's only by a little bit and it's lows are much lower. SDoIT flows better as well. So even though Black Clouds wins 4-2 when comparing individual songs, Six Degrees is a better album. Either way, they're both incredible albums.
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Offline 425

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2015, 02:48:20 PM »
Honestly, I think BCSL wins every matchup for me. Maybe Blind Faith beats AROP, but the rest of them are definite wins for BCSL. SDOIT just is clearly their weakest album.
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Online Evermind

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2015, 02:49:39 PM »
Alright, I'll bite.

The Glass Prison vs A Nightmare to Remember

I'm not that big a fan of TGP as a lot of people seem to be, though I have to admit its ending is glorious. Still, ANTR takes the cake here for me, despite being a bit drawn out, I still think it's a much better song.

Blind Faith vs A Rite of Passage

I don't think any comments are needed here.

Misunderstood vs Wither

Wither is pretty bland ballad, it's enjoyable, but not very much. Misunderstood, on the other hand, is a great experimental track and I love it to pieces until the outro comes in. Still, even with that controversially horrible outro, I like Misunderstood better.

The Great Debate vs The Shattered Fortress

Curiously, I saw both songs live (TGD in 2011 and TSF in 2014, I think), and if that was the question which song works better live, I would've voted for TSF. However, in studio TSF seems like a dull medley of other AA suite pieces, and TGD is actually an amazing prog track. Love it.

Disappear vs The Best of Times

Don't get me wrong, I love both intro and outro of TBOT, but as a whole song, Disappear is just much more emotional and satisfying package.

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs The Count of Tuscany

Well, SDOIT the song is probably my least favourite epic by DT, so it's a no-brainer for me at all.

Overall, SDOIT won this 4-2, but in fact I think both albums are pretty even for me. True, if SDOIT didn't have this second disc, it would've been nearly perfect and that would've been enough for it to soar up in my DT album rankings, but as things stand now, both albums are just somewhere in the middle, maybe even a bit lower than that. Not a very popular opinion, I know.
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2015, 03:34:30 PM »
SDoIT all the way. The lowest ranked SDoIT song I have is #36 and BC&SL doesn't ever get higher than #33. Their best album vs an album that if it disappeared from history, it would make me less embarrassed to be associated with DT.

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Offline fischermasamune

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2015, 03:40:39 PM »
Curiously, I was thinking on the same thing when trying to decide I like BC&SL or SDOIT more. I used other match-ups, as to matth better intensity/length of songs. I also allowed draws... even though I'm not following the rules, I'm posting them.

The Glass Prison vs The Shattered Fortress
DRAW!

Blind Faith vs A Nightmare to Remember
BC&SL!

Misunderstood vs A Rite of Passage
SDOIT!

The Great Debate vs The Best of Times
BC&SL!

Disappear vs Wither
SDOIT!

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs The Count of Tuscany
SDOIT!

So I'm inclined to say SDOIT wins by 3.5-2.5, but still it's a marginal difference and I can't really tell which album I like more.

Offline Crow

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2015, 03:42:05 PM »
The Glass Prison vs. A Nightmare To Remember
The Glass Prison is pretty great from front-to-back and the four minutes are just fantastic. A Nightmare To Remember is a good intro and outro with a lot of stuff inbetween ranging from great to awful. Intro, Beautiful Agony, Outro, good that's all I ever really want to hear from that one anymore. Easily TGP.

Blind Faith vs. A Rite of Passage
Blind Faith is probably my least favorite song on the first disc of SDOIT. The music's just okay most of the time and the lyrics are some of DT's absolute worst. The unison is pretty damn stellar though, most of the instrumental bits are great really. A Rite of Passage is one of my least favorite DT songs in general, though, and I dislike pretty much everything about it. Main riff gets old quick and soon becomes grating, chorus is awful awful, instrumental is out of place and pointless. Ugh. Blind Faith wins.

Misunderstood vs. Wither
Powerful power ballad with one of my absolute favorite moments in the entire DT discography, vs. generic boring power ballad that wishes it could even stand in the former's shadow. Misunderstood wins by default because Wither didn't even show up to the competition.

The Great Debate vs. The Shattered Fortress
The Great Debate is a song I describe as a valley. It starts out FANTASTIC. The entire intro is just, great. Then the lyrical bits happen and I'm a bit less happy. Then the slower part which I just don't like much in general. The instrumental brings things back up to enjoyable and the outro is also great. The Shattered Fortress is a lot of good reprises and a few original bits, but there's not a lot to it worth calling "original". It's a natural conclusion to the 12-step suite, I guess, but I think the reprises could've been done better. This is probably the closest matchup out of them all but I'm gonna give it to The Great Debate.

Disappear vs. who even bloody cares
Disappear is a top 5 DT song for me. Moving on.

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs. The Count of Tuscany
The Count wins by virtue of actually being a song and not 8 songs loosely tied together with an overarching theme. Not that The Count is that coherent either. The intro and the heavy bit are basically two different songs mashed together and the ambient section begins and ends abruptly, but the rest of the song flows pretty well, the big ending choruses melding into the intro reprisal pretty smoothly. The Count of Tuscany wins here.

It should be noted that both of these rank in my lower half of DT albums overall, really. Aside from The Glass Prison, Misunderstood, and Disappear, none of them make my top 50, while those three are all in at least my top 20.

Offline CharlesPL

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2015, 03:52:07 PM »
TGP
BF
Misunderstood
TGD
Disappear
SDOIT

6:0

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2015, 03:55:25 PM »
This isn't even a contest......it's a Clean Sweep for Six Degrees. BC&SL my least favorite DT album because (IMO) it was mailed in. The 'hopelessly drifting' section of ANTR was cool sounding and parts of TCOT were cool....but all in all I felt that BC&SL was made just to be made. This album could have easily been the period where they took a break.

The Glass Prison is such a well structured and executed song....and the unisons in this are pretty incredible. Blind Faith is in my top 3 DT songs of all time and followed by Misunderstood which on any given day could be top 5 for me. Both songs are lyrically top notch and filled with emotion. The Great Debate is a very solid song and Disappear has almost a lucid dream feel to it. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is fantastic IMO.....

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2015, 04:13:22 PM »
6DOIT by a landslide.  Every song off 6DOIT is better than every song off BC&SL except The Count of Tuscany (which is better than The Great Debate and possibly 6DOIT the song depending on my mood). 

Honestly, I think BCSL wins every matchup for me. Maybe Blind Faith beats AROP, but the rest of them are definite wins for BCSL. SDOIT just is clearly their weakest album.

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Offline 425

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2015, 04:21:44 PM »
There's stuff I like in most of the songs, and the title song is really good (though The Count of Tuscany is better), but the first disc is just not up to par for me at all.
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Offline Zyzzyva17

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2015, 05:25:50 PM »
I'll do the full ranking of the 12 songs.

1. The Best of Times
2. The Count of Tuscany
3. Blind Faith
4. A Nightmare to Remember
5. A Rite of Passage
6. The Shattered Fortress
7. Disappear
8. The Glass Prison
9. Wither
10. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
11. Misunderstood
12. The Great Debate

So for me, the clear winner is BC&SL. Not that I didn't already know that. BC&SL is my second favorite album, and SDOIT is my second least favorite.
D - D/F# - G - D - Bm - Bm/A - E/G# - A

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2015, 05:29:57 PM »
No. Just no. This is not even a contest. I like BCASL plenty, but the best off BCASL would equal about the worst off SDOIT at best.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2015, 05:34:33 PM »
I don't even have to do a song by song.  This is not a fair matchup.  6DOIT by miles and miles and miles.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2015, 05:52:37 PM »
I don't even have to do a song by song.  This is not a fair matchup.  6DOIT by miles and miles and miles.
No. Just no. This is not even a contest. I like BCASL plenty, but the best off BCASL would equal about the worst off SDOIT at best.

These. The only similarity is they both have 6 "songs".

Six Degrees for Every Track.

I love The Count Of Tuscany but Six Degrees is just light years better.


Offline Nearmyth

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2015, 06:25:39 PM »
The Glass Prison - A Nightmare To Remember

Blind Faith - A Rite Of Passage

Misunderstood - Wither

The Great Debate - The Shattered Fortress

Disappear - The Best Of Times

SDOIT
- The Count Of Tuscany

 ???
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2015, 06:32:47 PM »
The Glass Prison - A Nightmare To Remember

Blind Faith - A Rite Of Passage

Misunderstood - Wither

The Great Debate - The Shattered Fortress

Disappear - The Best Of Times

SDOIT
- The Count Of Tuscany

 ???


1. TGP = No RORORORO DAY AFTA DAY

2. Blind Faith = No Bebot Solo

4. The Great Debate = A new song - not a medley.

6. SDOIT = No MAH BRUTHA SUCKIN ON HIS PIPE

Offline Randaran

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2015, 08:58:39 PM »
The Glass Prison
Blind Faith
Wither
The Great Debate
Disappear
The Count of Tuscany
Only a prog fan would try to measure how much they enjoy a song by an equation. :lol
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Offline Tom Bombadil

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2015, 09:13:27 PM »
All SDOIT disc 1 but TCOT blows SDOIT out of the water.

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2015, 09:22:34 PM »
Six Degrees wipes the floor with Black Clouds.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2015, 10:26:07 PM »
I don't even have to do a song by song.  This is not a fair matchup.  6DOIT by miles and miles and miles.

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2015, 02:00:44 AM »
The Glass Prison - A Nightmare To Remember

Blind Faith - A Rite Of Passage

Misunderstood - Wither

The Great Debate - The Shattered Fortress

Disappear - The Best Of Times

SDOIT
- The Count Of Tuscany

 ???


1. TGP = No RORORORO DAY AFTA DAY

2. Blind Faith = No Bebot Solo

4. The Great Debate = A new song - not a medley.

6. SDOIT = No MAH BRUTHA SUCKIN ON HIS PIPE

Because all DT songs should be judged solely by short sections blown out of proportion by DTF cliches and all caps writing.
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2015, 02:43:55 AM »
Well, if you're having an okay day, and the only thing of note that happened was that you got shot in the foot, that'd probably be what you remember about that day.

The 'sucking on is pipe' and 'day after day' sections are mind numbingly horrible, especially the latter, and makes it nearly impossible for anything else on those tracks to save it. ANTR has good moments, as does TCoT, but they can only help so much.

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2015, 02:50:16 AM »
The 'sucking on is pipe' and 'day after day' sections are mind numbingly horrible, especially the latter, and makes it nearly impossible for anything else on those tracks to save it. ANTR has good moments, as does TCoT, but they can only help so much.

Can't say I agree about TCOT. Yeah, that part is pretty bad, but among the other brilliant sections TCOT offers, especially this incredible ending, "sucking on his pipe" moment is just a drop of disappointment in the sea of awesomeness, in my opinion.
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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2015, 04:22:42 AM »
The Count of Tuscany's lyrics are silly as hell, but that's part of its charm. I never thought any of the lyrics to TCOT were cringeworthy, but "day after day" is hilariously bad, and kind of embarrassing.


Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2015, 04:51:37 AM »
Because all DT songs should be judged solely by short sections blown out of proportion by DTF cliches and all caps writing.
Not necessarily, but a bad part can ruin an otherwise great song (not that those are the only bad spots on the BC&SL songs).  Plus, those corresponding songs from 6DOIT don't have any such negative short sections.
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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2015, 05:19:16 AM »
I prefer The Count to the title "song" of Six Degrees, but as for the rest of the songs, it's 6D all the way.

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2015, 05:28:32 AM »
Because all DT songs should be judged solely by short sections blown out of proportion by DTF cliches and all caps writing.
Not necessarily, but a bad part can ruin an otherwise great song (not that those are the only bad spots on the BC&SL songs).  Plus, those corresponding songs from 6DOIT don't have any such negative short sections.

I've always thoughts DTF's opinions on those sections are huge overreactions. Even if I didn't like those sections, I can't imagine how they could possibly ruin the whole song for me. :dunno:
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2015, 05:33:18 AM »
Because all DT songs should be judged solely by short sections blown out of proportion by DTF cliches and all caps writing.
Not necessarily, but a bad part can ruin an otherwise great song (not that those are the only bad spots on the BC&SL songs).  Plus, those corresponding songs from 6DOIT don't have any such negative short sections.

I've always thoughts DTF's opinions on those sections are huge overreactions. Even if I didn't like those sections, I can't imagine how they could possibly ruin the whole song for me. :dunno:

I agree.  It would have to be a big chunk of the song for it to actually ruin the song for me.  Besides, with DT the song lengths make it really hard to dislike a song because a minute or two of the song isn't to one's liking.

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2015, 05:38:03 AM »

Because all DT songs should be judged solely by short sections blown out of proportion by DTF cliches and all caps writing.

Maybe go for a walk. :)

And whenever I put on A Nightmare To Remember - I always notice how it's simply way too long. The Beautiful Agony section helps but as soon as the

heavy section comes back around it just drags and there's at least two solo sections too many.

I really like Wither & The Best Of Times but overall there's no way that the album is better than the entirety of Six Degrees.

The title track alone is better than the whole of Black Clouds. Then it has 5 bonus songs.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2015, 05:40:03 AM »
No. Just no. This is not even a contest. I like BCASL plenty, but the best off BCASL would equal about the worst off SDOIT at best.

Exactly my thoughts.

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2015, 06:04:13 AM »
Even if it's a relatively small part of the song, it'll always be there on every listen, ruining every listening experience. It's like saying that one single small bite of poop doesn't ruin an entire large and otherwise good meal.

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2015, 06:17:09 AM »
Even if it's a relatively small part of the song, it'll always be there on every listen, ruining every listening experience. It's like saying that one single small bite of poop doesn't ruin an entire large and otherwise good meal.

It's more like one small scene you don't like in a movie ruining the entire movie for you. It just seems so childish to let one thing ruin the entire experience for you. But whatever.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2015, 06:19:34 AM »
Next up :

Scenes From A Memory VS Dream Theater  :biggrin:


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Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2015, 06:20:44 AM »
Even if it's a relatively small part of the song, it'll always be there on every listen, ruining every listening experience. It's like saying that one single small bite of poop doesn't ruin an entire large and otherwise good meal.

"Ruining" is overly dramatic way to put it, I think. I don't think any of those sections are ruining the song.

Even if it's a relatively small part of the song, it'll always be there on every listen, ruining every listening experience. It's like saying that one single small bite of poop doesn't ruin an entire large and otherwise good meal.

It's more like one small scene you don't like in a movie ruining the entire movie for you. It just seems so childish to let one thing ruin the entire experience for you. But whatever.

Agreed.
This first band is Soen very cool swingy jazz fusion kinda stuff.

Offline fischermasamune

  • Posts: 410
Re: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence vs Black Clouds & Silver Linings
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2015, 09:45:41 AM »
There are also skippable sections in SDOIT. For me there are two: the first half of Goodnight Kiss, or the last minute of Misunderstood. For BC&SL, the only part I sometimes skip is the second part of TCOT (I even did a 11-minute edit with the first half only).