Why do people say MM is a machine?

[Darkstarshades]

Lots of people keep saying that MP was waay more expressive, had a lot of creativity and loved his job...
However, I just saw Breaking the Fourth Wall and Mangini was waaaay more expressive than MP ever was on nearly every other DVD they got.
Just because of the singing or what?
Since when is playing good a flaw? "He just never misses anything, like a robot"

[Calvin6s]

Personally, I like Mike better.  Mike just isn't as good.  There are two eras of DT.  DT-Mike and DT-Mike.  One thing I've noticed is Mike has a deeper well to draw from that Mike just can't expect to have.  When I think DT, I think Mike.

[Prog Snob]

Very well said.   

[BlobVanDam]

Personally, I like Mike better.  Mike just isn't as good.  There are two eras of DT.  DT-Mike and DT-Mike.  One thing I've noticed is Mike has a deeper well to draw from that Mike just can't expect to have.  When I think DT, I think Mike.

I could not disagree more.

[425]

Those of us who say that MP is more expressive are not referring to his stage presence, we're referring to his playing. No disrespect to MM, who is a fantastically skilled drummer, but I do find MP's drumming to be more expressive and I prefer his to MM's.

[Prog Snob]

Those of us who say that MP is more expressive are not referring to his stage presence, we're referring to his playing. No disrespect to MM, who is a fantastically skilled drummer, but I do find MP's drumming to be more expressive and I prefer his to MM's.

MP's passion for the music he's a part of is hard to beat.

[Aythesryche]

I'll take the bait... But I'd like to elaborate a bit more beyond the expressive argument. I think in a lot of cases this feud has to do with the psychological attachments people have with MP and his contributions over MM, and they'll attempt to discredit MM by saying MP is better in such and such regard than MM because of this fact. Saying MP has more groove/soul/heart/passion than MM is absurd. Same goes for saying that MM has more of it than MP. They're both very passionate, groovy, and expressive drummers that put their hearts into their music.

Whether someone likes MP over MM, MM over MP and for whatever reasons, I shan't argue. All that's subjective and whatever moves you for whatever reasons is cool. The only issues I've ever had is when the musician that's not in someones radar as being their personal "best" automatically gets assassinated and relegated to the "HE SUX!" garbage heap. I'd like to think I'm a bit more respectful and open minded than that...

[425]

I'll take the bait... But I'd like to elaborate a bit more beyond the expressive argument. I think in a lot of cases this feud has to do with the psychological attachments people have with MP and his contributions over MM, and they'll attempt to discredit MM by saying MP is better in such and such regard than MM because of this fact. Saying MP has more groove/soul/heart/passion than MM is absurd. Same goes for saying that MM has more of it than MP. They're both very passionate, groovy, and expressive drummers that put their hearts into their music.

I don't think this is the case a lot of the time. I became a fan in 2013—two years in to the Mangini era. At first I kind of went along with the popular sentiment around here, which was basically that Mangini is a more skilled drummer and a valuable addition to the band and that maybe MP's departure wasn't such a bad thing from that perspective. I really did go into ADTOE and DT12 with that as my main mindset. And while I love those albums and think Mike turns in a solid performance on both, there is no question that over time, I grew to feel that Portnoy was a more expressive drummer. That is my honest opinion. I am not saying that out of nostalgia for a time I never knew or in an attempt to "discredit" MM (why would I want to discredit MM? I went in basically wanting to prefer him, I just ended up... not).

And I don't think it's at all ridiculous to say that MP is more expressive. That's a position that a lot of people seem to hold, and one that is at least worth consideration, not outright dismissal as "absurd."

[Prog Snob]

I'll take the bait... But I'd like to elaborate a bit more beyond the expressive argument. I think in a lot of cases this feud has to do with the psychological attachments people have with MP and his contributions over MM, and they'll attempt to discredit MM by saying MP is better in such and such regard than MM because of this fact. Saying MP has more groove/soul/heart/passion than MM is absurd. Same goes for saying that MM has more of it than MP. They're both very passionate, groovy, and expressive drummers that put their hearts into their music.

Whether someone likes MP over MM, MM over MP and for whatever reasons, I shan't argue. All that's subjective and whatever moves you for whatever reasons is cool. The only issues I've ever had is when the musician that's not in someones radar as being their personal "best" automatically gets assassinated and relegated to the "HE SUX!" garbage heap. I'd like to think I'm a bit more respectful and open minded than that...

Well nobody here is saying MP sucks or that MM sucks.  Nobody here is discrediting either of them as they both have their strengths.  It's just blatantly obvious that MP has a more sensitive approach to the music he creates. That is not to say MM does not have a sensitive approach at all.  I just feel MP has more passion about his music.  It's a personal opinion. Just don't take it as discrediting one for the other because it's not.

[Aythesryche]

@425 Well, I'm just going by the things I've read over the years on this forum, FB, and youtube responses. But as far as your particular viewpoint, I can respect that. Think MP is a more expressive drummer? Cool. I'm quite capable of considering others peoples viewpoint on pretty much anything, but I rarely let it affect my personal tastes when it comes to such things. I've always been one to formulate my own opinion, irrespective of how others may feel. I'm pretty nuts when it comes to the amount of information I consider before making a conclusion on something, which is why I have such a difficult time with absolutes and blanket statements. I may often seem as if I'm on the fence on things, when in reality, there's just too many factors to consider to come to any sort of definitive conclusion on such matters.

In other words, I -personally- find it absurd to conclude one drummer is more groovy/soulful/heartfelt/passionate than another unless I would know every single thing they've ever thought of and felt in their entire lives with every beat of the drum during their performances. Then, I'd do an extensive comparison between the two. Since I can't do that, all I can do is formulate a conclusion based on my feelings and how I'm interpreting and quantifying the handful of visual queues from what I've personally observed from each drummer. Since I know both drummers are fantastic, passionate, groovy, expressive, etc, I make my typical seemingly on the fence statement and say they're equals to me. And my honest opinion is that they're both fantastic drummers for many different reasons, and I find it extremely difficult to say one is better than the other.

And now, with one eye barely open and slightly inebriated, it's time to pass out. I hope I've made some sense. 

P.S. @Prog Snob: I get what you're saying. I didn't say anyone here did say that MP or MM sucks. It was just something I decided to interject into the convo based on things I've read in the past. I'm also not arguing that MP has a more obvious sensitivity to the music he creates. He certainly doesn't hide any of his emotions. MM does seem a bit more reserved in some ways when expressing his sensitivity at times. That is, from what I've picked up on relating to DT stuff.

[King Postwhore]

I've heard the same thing for years with Neil Peart and the answer for both MM and NP is that they are like metronomes so their is less "swing" in their playing.  Neil went to a Jazz drummer teacher to get more swing into his playing.  It's not wrong, it's just how they feel comfortable playing.  Some drummers are more technical and like a metronome in their playing and that's cool.

[erwinrafael]

Well nobody here is saying MP sucks or that MM sucks.  Nobody here is discrediting either of them as they both have their strengths.  It's just blatantly obvious that MP has a more sensitive approach to the music he creates. That is not to say MM does not have a sensitive approach at all.  I just feel MP has more passion about his music.  It's a personal opinion. Just don't take it as discrediting one for the other because it's not.

Blatantly obvious that MP has a more sensitive approach to the music he creates compared to MM? That's quite a claim. By stating that it is blatantly obvious, you're basically saying it should be obvious to almost everybody.

It's not obvious to me.

The only thing blatantly obvious to me is that they have different approaches to drumming. They have different drumming philosophies. I stated before that MP plays the drums like JP playing the guitar. He likes to take the lead, to do flashy fills, to do counterpoints.

MM, on the other hand, plays the drums like JM playing the bass. He is more about providing the backbone, keeping the music together, highlighting what the others are playing, doing fills with more intent.

I don't think MP is more expressive. They express in different ways. I would say that MP is more flashy, with catchy fills and a lot of syncopated playing in his cymbals. MM's brilliance, on the other hand, is always in the context of the song, and a lot of times I get to realize his brilliance only when I break down how he's playing a certain section and realize how different limbs are highlighting different musical passages.

I actually find myself dumbfounded when MM is compared to a drum machine. I mean, show me anybody who could program a drum machine to play like how he played Illumination Theory, that monster of a drum composition.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

this is like the new kevin moore

[BlackInk]

Portnoy's parts are more imaginative and are played with a bit more of a sense of diversity. So I would say, based on what they have done on DT albums, that I like Portnoy more. But I still like Mangini, I would just like him to get the production right on an album for once.

[erwinrafael]

Portnoy's parts are more imaginative and are played with a bit more of a sense of diversity. So I would say, based on what they have done on DT albums, that I like Portnoy more. But I still like Mangini, I would just like him to get the production right on an album for once.

I think it is easier to say that Portnoy's drummming has more diversity because he had ten albums' worth of material to showcase his range. MM has two, with arguably only one where he had much to say about how his drum parts are written. And that one album is an album of short songs, where he really can not showcase much of his range. MM was "unleashed" only in Illumination Theory, and I would argue that we got the best drumming in a DT 20-minute+ epic in that song.

[BlackInk]

MM was "unleashed" only in Illumination Theory, and I would argue that we got the best drumming in a DT 20-minute+ epic in that song.

I don't agree. His drum parts were good, but nothing really 'mind blowing'. Although in the case of that song/album, it is hard for me to judge the parts themselves, because however good they are, they will always be eclipsed by the horrendous drum production.

[rumborak]

To me it´s like this: Portnoy is an intuitive drummer, who essentially comes with a "pre-stored" set of very engaging rhythmic ideas. Drawback, once he exhausted those there was little more to come. He´s kinda like that really awesome smartphone app that however only has 4 levels. It´s a joy to play those levels, but after that you´re forced to replay the same levels.
Mangini is an "analytic" drummer. He can tell you that a Latinamerican beat requires doing a syncopated 7/16 over a backbeat 3/4. While he can expertly create those patterns, many of stay being brain teasers, with little intuitive value. He´s the "brain exercise" smartphone app that has tons of witty exercises, but you never find yourself saying "holy shit, it´s 1:30am but I need to finish this level!!"

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Lot of issues here.

First, given the way Mangini speaks about, well, anything in interviews, the idea that he lacks passion for what he does is completely ridiculous. Maybe it doesn't always translate to tape, but it sure as hell is there. Unlike Portnoy, he doesn't consider himself the leader of the band, and so his position in the songwriting and recording process is more distant because of that dynamic. No other possible DT drummer is going to be playing like Portnoy, because any other drummer will be taking their cues from Petrucci (and Rudess, I guess).

Other than that, I'm on the fence here. On one hand, there's Breaking the Fourth Wall, which seems to get conveniently ignored by the faction of people who have made up their minds that Mangini lacks whatever it is he lacks. Part of that is the better drum production and part of it is likely his increased comfort level. So he has great drumming in him somewhere and is on an upward trend.

That said, almost every time I put on an MP-era DT song, I invariably think "Man, I miss these fills in DT." Whether it's one of the masterpieces or something like Burning My Soul, this happens, and it's no accident. I know some claim that he was less inventive toward the end, and he probably was, but Portnoy was always well-produced (excepting WDADU and ACOS) and never bland. Mangini is 1-for-4 on well-produced and...we could debate how bland he is, but I'd argue ADTOE, LALP, and DT12 are blander than any Portnoy-era album (BTFW, however, is on par with anything else).

DT13 is Mangini's big chance. He could prove he really is on an upward trend and bring the BTFW magic into the studio, or he could backslide and clearly establish that he's never going to capture the same stylistic elements that a large portion of the DT fanbase has come to treasure in the drumming. Here's hoping it's the former, because I want to see him (and the band) get it right.

[rumborak]

DT13 is Mangini's big chance. He could prove he really is on an upward trend and bring the BTFW magic into the studio, or he could backslide[...]

I would argue DT12 was supposed to be that.

[erwinrafael]

MM was "unleashed" only in Illumination Theory, and I would argue that we got the best drumming in a DT 20-minute+ epic in that song.

I don't agree. His drum parts were good, but nothing really 'mind blowing'. Although in the case of that song/album, it is hard for me to judge the parts themselves, because however good they are, they will always be eclipsed by the horrendous drum production.

The drumming in Illumination Theory is not yet mind-blowing for you? Well, I guess we really have vastly different tastes then.  Anyway, just some of my notes on MM's drumming in IT:

1. The intro with three cymbal patterns, with a snare and a bass drum.
2. The bass drum syncing with JM while his other limbs are busy to provide that strong rhythm.
3. The rather novel playing of hi-hats and rides, utilizing different cymbal sources for the left and right hand, in the stanza and chorus of Live, Die, Kill.
4. The drums going up and down scales, including the cymbals, highlighting the melodic progressions of JR and JP.
5. The killer 3-3-4-2, 3-3-4-3 drum pattern in the Pursuit of Truth.
6. Polyrhythms everywhere, for example, the ones leading to Live. Die. Kill. 
7. The limb independence, particularly in the section where he is following JR with one limb while the other limb is doing 3/16.
8. The insanely fast one-handed drum rolls while he's doing 4/4 downbeats with his other hand on a cymbal. I count at least two instances.

[erwinrafael]

DT13 is Mangini's big chance. He could prove he really is on an upward trend and bring the BTFW magic into the studio, or he could backslide[...]

I would argue DT12 was supposed to be that.

So we were supposed to judge MP based only on WDADU?

[rumborak]

Huh? I believe DT12 was MM´s second album, right? If anything, your comment should be "so we should judge MP based on WDADU + IAW?", to which I would say, yes.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Rumbo, I get where you're coming from. Prior to DT12 I think we all thought the same thing--now he's integrated, let's see what he can do, right? And it was a letdown on multiple fronts. But BTFW was almost a complete 180 in the right direction. Finally he had a good drum sound and was really showing off his ability behind the kit. Given that they finally got him to sound good and his comfort level seems to be increasing, it's possible to retroactively say "Well, the first time he was integrated didn't go great, but now maybe they have it." If BTFW sounded like LALP, I'd be much more on the "This will never reach greatness" side, but it doesn't, and so there's evidence in both directions that will be resolved by the DT13 product.

Oh, also, the idea of comparing a 22-year-old Mike Portnoy's performance on WDADU, when he'd never been professionally recorded before, to 48-year-old veteran Mike Mangini's performance on a veteran powerhouse band's twelfth album...not really a meaningful comparison on any front.

[goo-goo]

MM was "unleashed" only in Illumination Theory, and I would argue that we got the best drumming in a DT 20-minute+ epic in that song.

I don't agree. His drum parts were good, but nothing really 'mind blowing'. Although in the case of that song/album, it is hard for me to judge the parts themselves, because however good they are, they will always be eclipsed by the horrendous drum production.

The drumming in Illumination Theory is not yet mind-blowing for you? Well, I guess we really have vastly different tastes then.  Anyway, just some of my notes on MM's drumming in IT:

1. The intro with three cymbal patterns, with a snare and a bass drum.
2. The bass drum syncing with JM while his other limbs are busy to provide that strong rhythm.
3. The rather novel playing of hi-hats and rides, utilizing different cymbal sources for the left and right hand, in the stanza and chorus of Live, Die, Kill.
4. The drums going up and down scales, including the cymbals, highlighting the melodic progressions of JR and JP.
5. The killer 3-3-4-2, 3-3-4-3 drum pattern in the Pursuit of Truth.
6. Polyrhythms everywhere, for example, the ones leading to Live. Die. Kill. 
7. The limb independence, particularly in the section where he is following JR with one limb while the other limb is doing 3/16.
8. The insanely fast one-handed drum rolls while he's doing 4/4 downbeats with his other hand on a cymbal. I count at least two instances.

While this sounds very impressive, to an untrained listener (like me), I have no idea how this sounds in IT. I only know his drumming doesn't sound as good as his capabilities (emphasis on sound). And the drum production also doesn't help him a lot. Live at Luna Park and BTFW did highlight a bit more his cymbal work and a better snare sound but studio wise, there's a lot to be desired.

Edit: To the untrained ear, MP sounds more melodical and his cymbal work is very good and one of MP's strength.

How I wished DT paired up with Jens Borgren. He's a killer sound engineer.

[erwinrafael]

Oh, also, the idea of comparing a 22-year-old Mike Portnoy's performance on WDADU, when he'd never been professionally recorded before, to 48-year-old veteran Mike Mangini's performance on a veteran powerhouse band's twelfth album...not really a meaningful comparison on any front.

Sorry, WDADU is the wrong comparison. What I meant is that MM is being compared for two album's output compared to ten albums' worth of work by MP, and when people say MP did this, MP did that, they are actually citing examples from multiple albums' worth of fills and playing styles. Like, he's more groovy, they cite Take The Time (I&W). That he does a lot of syncopation, they cite Trial of Tears (FII). He does amazing hi-hat work, they cite Octavarium. Or that he creates memorable fills, they cite TGP and Blind Faith (which are both in SDOIT).

For me, it would be better to compare MM's DT12 work to a similar album that has the same structure (relatively short songs + an epic), and I would say that Octavarium would be the best comparison. And to my ears, both of them relatively did great in the two albums, with each of their different playing styles and philosophies highlighted. MP being more flashy and playing lead, MM being more support and backbone with brilliant playing in the context of the song. Their styles are very different, so a lot of this just boils down to how one appreciates drumming in the context of a band.

While this sounds very impressive, to an untrained listener (like me), I have no idea how this sounds in IT. I only know his drumming doesn't sound as good as his capabilities (emphasis on sound). And the drum production also doesn't help him a lot. Live at Luna Park and BTFW did highlight a bit more his cymbal work and a better snare sound but studio wise, there's a lot to be desired.

Edit: To the untrained ear, MP sounds more melodical and his cymbal work is very good and one of MP's strength.

How I wished DT paired up with Jens Borgren. He's a killer sound engineer.

The production really actually impaired only the cymbal work, a lot of which got buried in the studio version particularly the stanza and chorus of Live. Die. Kill. If you could get past the snare sound, all of MM's "tricks" are audible.

I am untrained formally, but I trained myself to hear these nuances and I would actually would like to invite others to "train" their ears because it opens up new possibilities of what "music" could be. At least that is what happened to me, and I am quite happy that I get to appreciate what new elements MM is bringing to the table.

For example, in the intro to IT, you can hear these simultaneously playing:

At the "back", a cymbal that is going pish pish pish pish on the downbeat.
In the right speaker, a cymbal going chiki chiki chiki chiki.
In the left speaker, a cymbal going the syncopated tsk tsk tsk tsk counterpointing the cymbal playing the downbeat, and also playing the crash cymbals highlighting some points.
The bass and snare doing the melody: boom boompak, boomboomboompak boomboomboom boom boompak, etc.

It's very musical drumming, basically playing the melody of the Paradox of the Black Light section. IN the live version, MM simplified, not playing the chiki chiki chiki chiki in the cymbals in the right speaker.

For an example of the polyrhythmic drumming, there is an amazing line starting in 2:56:

Basically, the cymbals is following the odd time signature melody that's going tenen tenententen tenententen tenententen rest tenententen tenen tenententen tenenten. The mindfuck is that MM is doing basic 4/4 on the bass and snare at the same time, so it creates the feeling of being off-balance. Amazing.

-P-

[Prog Snob]

Blatantly obvious that MP has a more sensitive approach to the music he creates compared to MM? That's quite a claim. By stating that it is blatantly obvious, you're basically saying it should be obvious to almost everybody.

It's not obvious to me.

The only thing blatantly obvious to me is that they have different approaches to drumming. They have different drumming philosophies. I stated before that MP plays the drums like JP playing the guitar. He likes to take the lead, to do flashy fills, to do counterpoints.

MM, on the other hand, plays the drums like JM playing the bass. He is more about providing the backbone, keeping the music together, highlighting what the others are playing, doing fills with more intent.

I don't think MP is more expressive. They express in different ways. I would say that MP is more flashy, with catchy fills and a lot of syncopated playing in his cymbals. MM's brilliance, on the other hand, is always in the context of the song, and a lot of times I get to realize his brilliance only when I break down how he's playing a certain section and realize how different limbs are highlighting different musical passages.

I actually find myself dumbfounded when MM is compared to a drum machine. I mean, show me anybody who could program a drum machine to play like how he played Illumination Theory, that monster of a drum composition.

I'm not talking about their drumming skills. I'm talking about watching them on stage and how they both feel the music.  I've been seeing them live since 95 and have seen dozens of bootlegs from both drummers.  In my opinion, I feel the music more through MP. That's all I'm saying. As far as technical skills, I think MM is above MP but that's just another opinion.  I'm talking about passion and how they convey the music to the listener/viewer.  I feel MP does a better job at making you feel the music and knowing how he speaks about it, it's no doubt in my eyes that he holds a greater passion for the music he creates. I'm not saying MM doesn't convey passion, before you even begin to insinuate that.  I am just saying with MP I felt it more. 

[Edergilmour]

A related Topic: Does anybody know if they are really playing live with a metronome? Maybe to match the lyric videos and lights on stage?

This could be the reason why MM is playing "softer" in DT than in previous gigs.

[emtee]

Everyone will have a preference. I'll answer with a question.

-How many memorable parts and fills does MM have on his first 2 albums?
-How many memorable parts and fills did MP have on his first 2 DT albums?

[seasonsinthesky]

A related Topic: Does anybody know if they are really playing live with a metronome? Maybe to match the lyric videos and lights on stage?

This could be the reason why MM is playing "softer" in DT than in previous gigs.

the whole show is to a click for sure, especially the last tour.

to answer the original post: i'm quite sure he gets called a machine because of the obvious sample replacement/drum triggering he gets in DT – it's blatant, like on I&W (and he admitted he had to change his playing to cater to it). MP post-I&W/Live at the Marquee evidently pushed for a natural drum sound that was reinforced, rather than overwhelmed, by samples.

[Stadler]

MM was "unleashed" only in Illumination Theory, and I would argue that we got the best drumming in a DT 20-minute+ epic in that song.

I don't agree. His drum parts were good, but nothing really 'mind blowing'. Although in the case of that song/album, it is hard for me to judge the parts themselves, because however good they are, they will always be eclipsed by the horrendous drum production.

The drumming in Illumination Theory is not yet mind-blowing for you? Well, I guess we really have vastly different tastes then.  Anyway, just some of my notes on MM's drumming in IT:

1. The intro with three cymbal patterns, with a snare and a bass drum.
2. The bass drum syncing with JM while his other limbs are busy to provide that strong rhythm.
3. The rather novel playing of hi-hats and rides, utilizing different cymbal sources for the left and right hand, in the stanza and chorus of Live, Die, Kill.
4. The drums going up and down scales, including the cymbals, highlighting the melodic progressions of JR and JP.
5. The killer 3-3-4-2, 3-3-4-3 drum pattern in the Pursuit of Truth.
6. Polyrhythms everywhere, for example, the ones leading to Live. Die. Kill. 
7. The limb independence, particularly in the section where he is following JR with one limb while the other limb is doing 3/16.
8. The insanely fast one-handed drum rolls while he's doing 4/4 downbeats with his other hand on a cymbal. I count at least two instances.

You know what?  You clearly know more about drumming than I'll ever know.  Having said that, none of those things impacted me one bit.


I watched the That Metal Show with John 5 last night, and EVERY SINGLE BREAK he did something completely different, and EACH TIME I rewound the DVR because I could not believe what I was HEARING (I could care less about gymnastics and calisthenics).   I have done that repeatedly throughout Mike Portnoy's career, starting with Images and Words (I got into the band in '91 when that was released) and he is one of a handful of drummers (Peart, Collins) that I put on a disk SPECIFICALLY to hear him play.   I listen to My New World by Transatlantic sometimes just to hear the little fill at about the 11 minute mark.  I almost drove four hours to see them play in Philly because there was a chance to hear that one fill live and in person.

I can't name one moment in the Mangini era that I felt like that about the drumming. 

Maybe there's one that I've forgotten from when I first heard it, but... he's no doubt an amazing technical player, and a good guy from all accounts, and I agree that anyone that says a guy that has dedicated his life to his art like him isn't "passionate" is just being vindictive.  But at the end of the day?  It doesn't move me, emotionally, physically, or spiritually, and there are no arguments in the world that are going to change that. 

[jamesfernando]

MM was "unleashed" only in Illumination Theory, and I would argue that we got the best drumming in a DT 20-minute+ epic in that song.

I don't agree. His drum parts were good, but nothing really 'mind blowing'. Although in the case of that song/album, it is hard for me to judge the parts themselves, because however good they are, they will always be eclipsed by the horrendous drum production.

The drumming in Illumination Theory is not yet mind-blowing for you? Well, I guess we really have vastly different tastes then.  Anyway, just some of my notes on MM's drumming in IT:

1. The intro with three cymbal patterns, with a snare and a bass drum.
2. The bass drum syncing with JM while his other limbs are busy to provide that strong rhythm.
3. The rather novel playing of hi-hats and rides, utilizing different cymbal sources for the left and right hand, in the stanza and chorus of Live, Die, Kill.
4. The drums going up and down scales, including the cymbals, highlighting the melodic progressions of JR and JP.
5. The killer 3-3-4-2, 3-3-4-3 drum pattern in the Pursuit of Truth.
6. Polyrhythms everywhere, for example, the ones leading to Live. Die. Kill. 
7. The limb independence, particularly in the section where he is following JR with one limb while the other limb is doing 3/16.
8. The insanely fast one-handed drum rolls while he's doing 4/4 downbeats with his other hand on a cymbal. I count at least two instances.

You know what?  You clearly know more about drumming than I'll ever know.  Having said that, none of those things impacted me one bit.


I watched the That Metal Show with John 5 last night, and EVERY SINGLE BREAK he did something completely different, and EACH TIME I rewound the DVR because I could not believe what I was HEARING (I could care less about gymnastics and calisthenics).   I have done that repeatedly throughout Mike Portnoy's career, starting with Images and Words (I got into the band in '91 when that was released) and he is one of a handful of drummers (Peart, Collins) that I put on a disk SPECIFICALLY to hear him play.   I listen to My New World by Transatlantic sometimes just to hear the little fill at about the 11 minute mark.  I almost drove four hours to see them play in Philly because there was a chance to hear that one fill live and in person.

I can't name one moment in the Mangini era that I felt like that about the drumming. 

Maybe there's one that I've forgotten from when I first heard it, but... he's no doubt an amazing technical player, and a good guy from all accounts, and I agree that anyone that says a guy that has dedicated his life to his art like him isn't "passionate" is just being vindictive.  But at the end of the day?  It doesn't move me, emotionally, physically, or spiritually, and there are no arguments in the world that are going to change that.

I'm a guitarist. I don't know much about drumming, but I can easily appreciate all the things MM does (following the other instruments to reinforce their lines, layering polyrhythms). I think his approach to drums tends to appeal more to musicians who can hear the intricacies than lay people whose ear is more easily caught by flashy fills or groove. Not to say that MP is all flash and no substance, but MM fundamentally thinks like an orchestra drummer (he even said so in an interviews), so his parts are more geared around building an orchestration and layering to support the other instruments, rather than trying to do his own thing, because... that's not what orchestral drummers do. It's not something can can be easily discerned on first listen to the untrained ear perhaps, but every repeated listen is like peeling an onion: a new discovery awaits. Now if only they'd mix him properly...

[Mosh]

I'm a musician and I totally agree with Stadler. I can hear the intricacies in his playing and while it's definitely very impressive, it just rarely resonates with me.

[Calvin6s]

I'm a musician and transcribed the WDADU, I&W and Awake scores back around 1993-94.  To say that Portnoy is about fills whereas Mangini is about being a part of the larger picture is ridiculous.

And the keyword I keep seeing with Mangini is "follow".  Following is just a small part of orchestrating.  Some of Portnoy's coolest moments were when his drum parts were relatively simple, but made the bigger picture far more intricate.  Where every instrument was necessary to present the whole soundscape.  One instrument drops out and the whole thing falls apart.  They weren't following each other.  They were complementing each other.

So far the Mangini-isms seem to be:
Mashable rhythms (but poly mainly with itself as opposed to poly with the song)
Limb independence dependence
One handed rolls

[erwinrafael]

Who

I'm a musician and transcribed the WDADU, I&W and Awake scores back around 1993-94.  To say that Portnoy is about fills whereas Mangini is about being a part of the larger picture is ridiculous.

And the keyword I keep seeing with Mangini is "follow".  Following is just a small part of orchestrating.  Some of Portnoy's coolest moments were when his drum parts were relatively simple, but made the bigger picture far more intricate.  Where every instrument was necessary to present the whole soundscape.  One instrument drops out and the whole thing falls apart.  They weren't following each other.  They were complementing each other.

So far the Mangini-isms seem to be:
Mashable rhythms (but poly mainly with itself as opposed to poly with the song)
Limb independence dependence
One handed rolls

How can a drum part be poly with itself without being poly with the song, when the drum is a part of the song? It's like making a distinction when there is none. A drum part that is poly with itself is automatically poly with the song.

MM's different orchestration, particularly the melodic use of toms and cymbals, is also part of the Mangini-isms. It's the most obvious difference actually in MM's drumming from MP. You can hear it in the Breaking All Illusions octobans in the intro, the drum fills in The Enemy Inside, and, of course, the drum rolls in Illumintaiton Theory where he is not just going up or going down, but going up and down and back, approximating the progressions of JP or JR.

I think I would revise my use of the term "folllow". I think the better term is highlight. MM tends to highlight what the others are doing. One of my favorites is his use of the high-pitched ride in the instrumental of The Bigger Picture to highlight the high guitar harmony that kicked in the second half.

The one handed rolls of MM should be contextualized in that it is usually done so that one of his arms could keep the regular beat going (it's not like that one handed drum roll in the BFTW version of The Shattered Fortress where it is pure exhibition). The best illustration of this is 13:47-13:53 in Illumination Theory, where his left hand is doing the strong downbeats on the cymbal while the right hand is fgoing up and down the kit, approximating JP's playing in the lead guitar. There is also 14:12-14:14 where his right hand is hitting the downbeats on the cymbals while his left hand is rolling along with JR going up the scale in his keytar.

I also agree with you that Portnoy's coolest moments were his "simple" drum parts. I actually wished he stuck to that. A lot in this forum love his work in Blind Faith, but for me, it's excessive playing without being mindful of whether he is drowning out the other instruments. His best drum playing for me is in songs like The Mirror, Caught in a Web, Lines in the Sand, and Trial of Tears. He highlighted, did his fills, and did not overpower the other instruments. In The Mirror, he actually drove the song, providing the different soundscapes while JP and JM are doing the basic riff.

[rumborak]

I think most of this discussion comes from the fact that MM isn't a core songwriting member like MP was. MP will have said during writing "hey guys, what if I, for the next few measures, invert the rhythm?". The rest of DT will have known " OK, for those measures it's about drums, so I'll just keep playing what I've been playing so far to not steal the focus ". With MM not having this role in DT, he is forced to play some polyrhythmic crazy thing under an already busy section. With the result that, unless you're specifically listening for it, you won't notice it.