Black Clouds & Silver Linings, almost 6 Years Later

[LCArenas]

It's quite interesting to see the albums that are discussed the most in this subforum. The always-Controversial Awake, I&W, SFAM, the comparison between ADTOE and DT12, and even Systematic Chaos. But BC&SL doesn't seem to come up much amidst the discussions. It's like it has faded into oblivion after almost 6 years since it was released, being the last album to feature Mike Portnoy on the drums and as part of DT's creative process (And it shows).

I remember the praise it had when it was released. I started lurking DTF right after it came out and there were a lot of people ranking it among their favorite DT albums and praised the style of the songs, myself included.

I haven't listened much to it in the last years, to be honest. It seems like the general opinion of the forum is that it hasn't aged very well.

What do you think? Why do you think it's not talked about as much as the rest of the albums? How has it aged for you over the years? Do you still listen to it regularly? Why or why not?

_{Sucking on his pipe}

[The Presence of Frenemies]

A few stray thoughts about BCSL...

-I became a DT fan in 2007. SC was the first album that came out while I was a fan, and I loved it to death. Then BCSL came out and I was initially very excited for it with the long songs and all, but it didn't really stay in the rotation very long.

-The one thing that really made a huge impact then, and still does today, is the guitar solo in The Best of Times. The moment I heard it, I was completely blown away, and it remains my favorite solo to this day. I know the song as a whole gets a lot of flak, and the non-solo bits of the song I find rather mundane (though tasteful), but the solo elevates everything that comes before it and really makes it a top 10 DT track for me, the same way Intervals-Razor's Edge elevates the first three sections of 8V.

-A common sentiment about the album, one that I share, is that it has too few songs. Most albums that just have six or seven tracks have to be really consistent to work, because if you find three or even two of the tracks forgettable, the album tends to get forgotten along with them. On BCSL, we have one song out of six that doesn't aspire to be anything particularly incredible (Wither) and another that rehashes a lot of old DT sections (TSF). Nobody's going to put BCSL on to listen to either one of these, because Wither isn't a draw on its own, and most of TSF's good moments can be accessed through other 12SS songs. So right there you have two strikes. Dislike anything else (for me, I don't care for the Beautiful Agony section, the ambient break in TCOT, or the AROP instrumental, the last of which is one of my least favorite sections of DT music) and the album really starts to sink. With its share of controversial moments (MPs growls, the AROP stuff, TBOT lyrics, MY BRUTHA, etc.), the album is likely to induce many listeners to call strike three. DT is a band that moves around a lot stylistically, which means that fans from different backgrounds are likely to find something to dislike on every release (as opposed to, say, a power metal band, which releases basically the same album every time, but is always sonically consistent). Given BCSL's format, this variety works against the band more than it usually does.

-Speaking of sonic consistency, the other thing about BCSL is that, of all the albums in DT history, it's the one that sounds closest to another one. Yes, ADTOE has a lot of similarities to I & W, but 2/5 of the band turned over, not to mention 20 years in production techniques. BCSL, however, sounds like it could've been a double album with SC, because all the instruments sound almost exactly the same. It lacks an individual identity. I&W is the proggy album that started it all, and it has the '80s feel. Awake is the heavy '90s album. FII is the commercial, rock-oriented album. SFAM is SFAM. SDOIT is the experimental album. ToT is the metal album. 8V is the poppy album. SC is the modern/fantasy metal album. And BCSL is...basically SC with nonfiction lyrics. It's more concertedly epic, I suppose, but SC, with TMOLS and ITPOE, wasn't exactly coming from the 8V/DT12 conciseness model. The DT fans that do like the SC/BCSL sound (like myself) are probably more likely to go for SC, where the sound was more fresh, there was one more track, and there weren't the Wither/TSF issues described above. As much crap as SC gets, I feel like I see more "Hey, it's actually great" posts about it than I do for BCSL.

-Another issue with BCSL is that, TBOT glory excepted, it's possibly the worst DT album in terms of solos, which is unacceptable given its artistic intent. This is an album of huge, epic, modern metal tracks from a virtuostic powerhouse, and yet the three metallic opuses (ANTR, AROP, and TSF) contain very little memorable lead/solo work. The ANTR tradeoffs don't go anywhere, AROP really doesn't work at all, and the TSF solos feel tacked on and overstay their welcome. TCOT doesn't really have much soloing, either. So here you have this band that's known for the instrumental prowess, playing in a format that seems sure to especially emphasize that prowess (even by DT standards), and they come up short more often than not on that end. Of course, the instrumental issues make these longer pieces cohere less, thus hurting the flow and making the album less memorable, which becomes more of an issue due to having only a few tracks, etc.

[BlobVanDam]

Um TCOT has that immense outro solo, which is one of JP's best (plus the nice intro). While the solo in Wither is short and sweet, it's memorable for how melodic and restrained it is, plus the aforementioned TBOT, and ANTR has that killer rock lead in the first half. I also think the TSF one is cool, even though not as memorable. Overall though, I'd say JP was definitely at the top of his game for soloing on that album as much as ever.
I'd say ADTOE is easily JP's worst album for solos, with very little that is memorable at all.


I rank BCASL near the bottom, but I still think there's a lot to love about the album. As has been said, the biggest problem with the album for me is that there are too few songs. If you've got a couple of duds on an album with 10 songs, it doesn't hurt the album much overall at all. On an album with only 6 songs where you have a couple of 10 minute long duds? That has a huge impact.

[seasonsinthesky]

one of my favourite production jobs in the catalogue (seems to be the opposite of the consensus around here, which i definitely don't get), but also one of the worst offenders along with TOT for albums that are lengthy because the band didn't spend the time editing down their needlessly repetitive ideas and musical pieces that don't go anywhere (about half of ANTR, AROP and TBOT for sure, arguably TSF too). the only full songs i'm still backing are "Wither" and TCOT these days.

[Rodni Demental]

I've always been a huge advocate for this album. It was my first proper DT 'experience' and so my entrance to DT land as a whole. Meaning, I probably have huge nostalgic bias that probably overrides any objectivity regarding it's structure or compositions relative to the expectations of someone who's already a DT fan *gasp*, I was also on drugs at the time so it practically completely blew my mind. (Don't do drugs kids ) Although if I'm honest, I probably don't listen to it a whole lot these days because I really have listened to it too much, and I admit the limited song selection doesn't offer as much to come back to in the long run. That being said, it's an album of epics (if loosely using the term) so there's still plenty of stuff to dig into each song which can keep you coming back. I love how the songs feel quite natural to me, like they were just having a massive jam session and made songs out of it. Might not be the best way to make an album all the time, but it feels like they had a lot of fun with this one, I like the way the songs turned out and certainly wouldn't want to trim any of them down.

At least two thirds of the album has songs that I consider to be 'growers'. In that they have a lot going on, and you can get different things out of multiple listens until you start digesting all the details more thoroughly. I'm reffering to ANTR/TSF/TBOT/TCOT. The scope of these pieces were pretty impressive from a creative viewpoint, there's a lot going on, very progressive. And the other two tracks, the 'ballad' and the 'rocker' fill their roles accordingly and I believe they're very important to the presentation of the album as a whole.

Just to put a few things in perspective about the way I feel regarding this album. I admittedly will have bias for this album in particular for the reasons I've mentioned, but because it was my first album I had no prior bias about anything else. So songs like TSF I judged as it was with zero concept of the whole 12SS thing. I didn't know the riffs and motifs were being reprised (or rehashed depending on your perspective). MPs vocals didn't bother me because.. I dunno, I was listening to completely 'new' music at the time, that's just what they were doing, who was I to question the second vocalist doing his thing. In retrospect I can see why people point out these things as it was a bit 'different' for DT. I also wasn't really put off from the quantity of songs as they all seemed packed full of interesting ideas enough to keep me intrigued. Besides, in my complete ignorance I assumed the second disc was a continuation of the album. I would never have recognised the Rainbow song, same with the Crimson, Zebra and Dixie Dreg songs. I really should have recognised the Maiden song but I didn't (although it is a rather obscure piece for them). It was the Queen Medley that got me to further investigate because although I didn't recognise the pieces, Flick of the Wrist/Lily of the Valley just have Queen written all over them and I got suspicious. Almost wasn't the biggest surprise when I realised they were all covers, but that's how it went. 

Loved how it had all the instrumentals too (although really I consider these ones to be more backing tracks what with the lack of solos). These actually really got me more interested in appreciating the instrumentation though and was just a hint at what I had in store from DT when I started discovering more about them as far as extra content goes.

So yeah, great album. Deserves more recognition in my opinion.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Um TCOT has that immense outro solo, which is one of JP's best (plus the nice intro). While the solo in Wither is short and sweet, it's memorable for how melodic and restrained it is, plus the aforementioned TBOT, and ANTR has that killer rock lead in the first half. I also think the TSF one is cool, even though not as memorable. Overall though, I'd say JP was definitely at the top of his game for soloing on that album as much as ever.
I'd say ADTOE is easily JP's worst album for solos, with very little that is memorable at all.

Yeah, all the leads you mentioned are good. I never really perceive the TCOT one as a real "solo"--just a nice section in which JP happens to be playing some lead stuff (like the end of IT)--but that's a personal thing. Also note that none of these are JR solos. JP is, on average, maybe a bit below his typical level on the album, but when you combine that with 80 minutes of music that doesn't have much in the way of cool key solos (I do actually like the continuum one in ANTR, but I feel like I'm the only one), you get an album that is a bit disappointing in this area for me, and I don't feel like I'm alone here.

I should mention that I don't dislike the album--it's #6 for me. Love TBOT and enjoy Wither, TCOT, and ANTR quite a bit. The overall negativity of my post above is more seeking to explain the overlooked nature of the album commented on in the OP.

[The Curious Orange]

I actually like BC&SL, but I do have to be in the right mood for it. I think of it as their "gothic" album. The Count of Tuscany is an all time DT classic, but it really is the only thing I'd listen to outside the rest of the album (if that makes sense).

The fact BC&SL is regarded as a lesser album really only underlines how good the rest of their stuff is...

[Skeever]

It's quite interesting to see the albums that are discussed the most in this subforum. The always-Controversial Awake, I&W, SFAM,

There's nothing controversial about these albums other than they're all in the top 5 of probably 98.9% of DT fans.

[LCArenas]

It's quite interesting to see the albums that are discussed the most in this subforum. The always-Controversial Awake, I&W, SFAM,

There's nothing controversial about these albums other than they're all in the top 5 of probably 98.9% of DT fans.

Maybe I didn't phrase that very well The controversial adjective was directed only at Awake; I always feel people a bit divided when talking about that album.

[RoeDent]

I've never felt 'comfortable' with the rap in ANTR. When I first heard it, I was like "What the...?" And some fans regard it as something of a joke. To me, that whole thing is just not Dream Theater. The rest of the song is great (especially Beautiful Agony), but the rap does spoil things a bit for me.

[bosk1]

I rank BCASL near the bottom, but I still think there's a lot to love about the album. As has been said, the biggest problem with the album for me is that there are too few songs. If you've got a couple of duds on an album with 10 songs, it doesn't hurt the album much overall at all. On an album with only 6 songs where you have a couple of 10 minute long duds? That has a huge impact.

Pretty much that.  I don't care for TBOT at all.  And Wither and AROP, while not bad, don't do a heck of a lot for me.  For each of those, I can find other songs in the DT discography that have a similar structure and vibe that I like a LOT more.

I do love ANTR, the Shattered Fortress, and the Count of Tuscany.  But 3 songs out of 6 makes for an inconsistent album.

[Prog Snob]

I have to say the album keeps growing on me.  I've become a big fan of TSF lately  when originally I wasn't too crazy about it. TCOT speaks for itself.  It's just a masterpiece.  TBOT solo is one of JPs best and I still don't get why so many people dislike the song. 

[ariich]

Still a great album for me. I rank it in 4th place tied with Awake, behind my magic three of Six Degrees, I&W and ADTOE.

SONG RANKING WOO

1. The Count of Tuscany
2. Wither
3. The Shattered Fortress
4. A Nightmare to Remember
5. The Best of Times
6. A Rite of Passage

[hefdaddy42]

Easily the least of the Rudess-era albums.  The song that works the best is Wither.  I love Wither, but for this kind of band, when that is the most consistent song on the album, that's a problem.

Every other song has at least one thing marring it, and most of them have more than one thing. 

This album displays a lack of focus, way too much bloat, and a sense of settling for things in songs that they don't need to settle for, like no other album in the catalogue.

I much prefer the covers disc to the album itself.

[OsMosis2259]

I have to say the album keeps growing on me.  I've become a big fan of TSF lately  when originally I wasn't too crazy about it. TCOT speaks for itself.  It's just a masterpiece.  TBOT solo is one of JPs best and I still don't get why so many people dislike the song.

TSF was KILLER live on the last tour. Turned out great on Breaking the Fourth Wall as well.

[Kotowboy]

1. The Count of Tuscany
2. Wither
3. The Shattered Fortress
4. A Nightmare to Remember
5. The Best of Times
6. A Rite of Passage

My thoughts on the album :

1. Great song - silly lyrics. not as good as Octavarium as a closer.
2. Not bad. Great little solo. I actually prefer the Answer Lies Within to this - but I know everyone and their raw dog hates that song
3. A decent enough song. More of a medley than a new song. Doesn't touch the Glass Prison.
4. Way too long. Has some decent sections which are played 5 times too many and has one instrumental section and chorus too many.
5. Great song and an almighty solo - one of JP's best.
6. A fun song but that Bebot solo gets old quickly.

Overall i'd rank it WAY below Octavarium. Lower tier for me.

[Siddhartha]

I love that album.

[Prog Snob]

I have to say the album keeps growing on me.  I've become a big fan of TSF lately  when originally I wasn't too crazy about it. TCOT speaks for itself.  It's just a masterpiece.  TBOT solo is one of JPs best and I still don't get why so many people dislike the song.

TSF was KILLER live on the last tour. Turned out great on Breaking the Fourth Wall as well.

I think seeing in live was what did it for me.

[BlackInk]

The good things first. The 'beautiful agony' parts in the middle of ANtR are wonderful. Wither is a rather nice track, 'leaves my paralyzed!" might be my favorite moment of the album. The intro of TCoT is amazing, everything that comes before the 'dun! dundundun! dun! dundun!" stuff and the vocals.

Other than those things, I dislike this album rather strongly. A Rite of Passage is painfully dull. I don't even consider The Shattered Fortress a proper song any more than I would consider Frankenstein's Monster a proper human. The Best of Times is quite frankly cringe worthy and has absolutely no business being on a DT album. And TCoT is completely ruined by its atrocious lyrics. In fact, all lyrics on this album are pretty bad, some of DT's worst ever. And when I listen to it, it makes me happy MP left, so that he can never do those 'harsh vocals' on a DT album ever again.

[?]

BC&SL was the first full DT album I listened to, but I never thought of it as a particularly amazing album, and nowadays it's #10 in my ranking.

I keep going back to TCOT despite its ridiculous lyrics, because musically it's a great song, especially towards the end (as a matter of fact, I'm listening to the Happy Holidays version right now). Wither is a nice ballad, although the mash-up videos have slightly ruined it for me. TSF isn't a very interesting album track, but it worked surprisingly well live, which made me appreciate it a little more, but I still think it relies too much on recycling old riffs and themes. ANTR has plenty of good stuff, but the solos are uninspired and I can't listen to the MP vocal section with a straight face anymore. The Best of Times has some nice melodies, but I really don't think the song needed to be 13 minutes long. AROP has a catchy chorus, but the poor verse vocal melodies and the disgusting Bebot solo are enough to make it a bottom 10 DT song.

[SuperTaco]

-Speaking of sonic consistency, the other thing about BCSL is that, of all the albums in DT history, it's the one that sounds closest to another one. Yes, ADTOE has a lot of similarities to I & W, but 2/5 of the band turned over, not to mention 20 years in production techniques. BCSL, however, sounds like it could've been a double album with SC, because all the instruments sound almost exactly the same. It lacks an individual identity. I&W is the proggy album that started it all, and it has the '80s feel. Awake is the heavy '90s album. FII is the commercial, rock-oriented album. SFAM is SFAM. SDOIT is the experimental album. ToT is the metal album. 8V is the poppy album. SC is the modern/fantasy metal album. And BCSL is...basically SC with nonfiction lyrics. It's more concertedly epic, I suppose, but SC, with TMOLS and ITPOE, wasn't exactly coming from the 8V/DT12 conciseness model. The DT fans that do like the SC/BCSL sound (like myself) are probably more likely to go for SC, where the sound was more fresh, there was one more track, and there weren't the Wither/TSF issues described above. As much crap as SC gets, I feel like I see more "Hey, it's actually great" posts about it than I do for BCSL.

Maybe I'm just really picky about production, but I noticed quite a big difference from SC to BC&SL. The drums have reverb, The guitars are more spaced out in the mix, the keyboards are slightly less buried, and the bass has a stronger low end punch. Jordan Rudess starts using "gothic choir" patches for this album, too.

I still agree with you that these two albums are more similar sounding than any other pair of albums in DT's history. I just think that the difference between them is a bit bigger.

I'll keep my opinion on the album short for now. ANTR and Wither still get several plays a week. The others are more of an acquired mood, but I still like them all. AROP is easily my least favorite song on the album. I just don't have any emotional connection to that song. The lyrics and the sonic atmosphere are almost like a negative energy.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I'm not a big fan of A Rite of Passage or Wither (although I love bebot) but the strength of the four long songs is enough to put it at number 6 in my album rankings over albums like Awake, Train of Thought, and DT12. I don't mind MP's hrash vocals (TDEN notwithstanding) and the silly lyrics are actually kind of fun. ANTR is their best album opener, TSF is my favorite part of the 12SS and has the most severely underrated JP solo. TBOT is a decent song with my all time favorite guitar solo from any artist. And of course TCoT is a masterpiece and my number 2 DT song only behind Octavarium. I will say the biggest flaw on this album is Jordan's solos (other than bebot) and the regular keyboard parts being buried in the mix. I absolutely love the patches that JR used on this album and it's a shame that his parts are so low in the mix. But overall, this is a great but inconsistent album that was a fitting goodbye for MP.

[N4Player]

Still my favourite DT album of all time. TCOT my favourite song in spite of the lyrics, and since the BCSL was the tour where I saw DT live for the first time, it was very special. They became my favourite band after that. The Best of Times has special meaning because I knew I was going to lose someone who meant the world to me, and I latched on it. The acoustic section and the guitar solo will always break me. Music is beautiful, music is painful. Simple as that. I love that album and it defines what DT is to me personally.

[Architeuthis]

Still my favourite DT album of all time. TCOT my favourite song in spite of the lyrics, and since the BCSL was the tour where I saw DT live for the first time, it was very special. They became my favourite band after that. The Best of Times has special meaning because I knew I was going to lose someone who meant the world to me, and I latched on it. The acoustic section and the guitar solo will always break me. Music is beautiful, music is painful. Simple as that. I love that album and it defines what DT is to me personally.
[/q

Awesome post! :-)

[bosk1]

6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).

[ReaPsTA]

Easily the least of the Rudess-era albums.  The song that works the best is Wither.  I love Wither, but for this kind of band, when that is the most consistent song on the album, that's a problem.

Every other song has at least one thing marring it, and most of them have more than one thing. 

This album displays a lack of focus, way too much bloat, and a sense of settling for things in songs that they don't need to settle for, like no other album in the catalogue.

I much prefer the covers disc to the album itself.

I was going to write a less good version of this post.

[Prog Snob]

6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).

I always enjoyed the lyrics.  It's not the typical enigmatic lyrics that we're used to with JP, so people didn't take to it too well. 

[Randaran]

I find it hard to listen to this one, as both ANTR and AROP are bottom 5 DT songs for me. The remaining fifty minutes are much better, but still not great enough to pull this album above DT12.

[ReaPsTA]

6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).

I'm reading Lifting Shadows.  The parts of the book where JP talks about the car accident and seeing the Count of Tuscany in real life are more interesting than the lyrics he wrote about those experiences.

The lyrics for Wither are great though.

[Dublagent66]

I rank this album at #10, although I don't consider it a bad album.  Lots of good stuff there and an excellent closer in TCOT.  Don't care too much for TBOT, but the outro is good enough to almost save it, not quite.  The cookie monster vocals in ANTR are cringe worthy and cheesy but for the most part, the song is pretty cool.  I also like AROP and Wither quite a bit.

[hefdaddy42]

6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).

I dunno, do lyrics or poetry generally matter to you?  They don't to some people.

[bosk1]

6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).

I dunno, do lyrics or poetry generally matter to you?  They don't to some people.

Generally, yes.

[jammindude]

It's a mild improvement over the train wreck of Systematic Chaos.   But it was becoming pretty obvious that DT were in a low point creatively.    I don't like the way it shook out...but the improvement after these two albums was so quick and drastic, that it was pretty obvious that it needed to happen.

The album starts well and ends well...but the middle part is just rather boring.   There are no really terrible moments like on SC (I'm looking at you PoW) but it's just kindof "there".    ANTR and TCOS are really amazing, and I guess it could be argued that that's nearly half the album. 

[hefdaddy42]

6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).

I dunno, do lyrics or poetry generally matter to you?  They don't to some people.

Generally, yes.

In that case, I don't understand how you don't get what problems some people have with these lyrics.

We appear to be at an impasse.

[bosk1]

We appear to be at an impasse.

I'm afraid so -- I can't compete with you physically. And you're no match for my brains.