DT12 CD vs HDTracks - A visual representation

[hefdaddy42]

Because the sound is what it is. 

I don't have a huge problem with DT12, although it is very loud.  But the best sounding albums, by and large, were the ones before they started self-producing.  Which indicates that they just aren't as good at that.  IMO, the only really good sounding album from the self-producing era is 6DOIT.  I have no idea why they haven't continued to do things the way they were done on that album.

Not sure about how saying they have "control" over the album art works in your favor, because by and large, the album covers aren't great either.

[ariich]

I basically agree with this. If a production style (including overly loud/compressed) is an artist's intention/vision, that's fine. However, when JP spoke about how exciting the HDtracks releases were, he said something about it being great to have them in the un-mastered HD quality that they get in the studio. Which strongly suggests that what the band hears is pre-mastering. So I doubt the band is really aware of the problem.

Honest question:  doesn't this ("[It is] great to have them in the un-mastered HD quality") kind of strongly imply that they ARE aware of the condition (I don't call it a "problem")?    Doesn't saying it is great to have them un-mastered require a comparison to the mastered state? 

That depends on whether he has actually heard (properly heard, that is) the final mastered version. He may well have not really paid attention to it, thinking that the difference is minor and that the exciting thing is the High Definition (which, as many have pointed out, the human ear pretty much can't distinguish anyway).

My point was more that the version that he and the band get to hear seems to be what they have in the studio, i.e. pre-mastering. In which case, it's quite possible that they simply haven't heard the final mastered version. It would only really be if they've gone out of their way to check out the final version that they'd know. Which some artists would absolutely certainly do, but with DT I get the impression they approach it quite a lot as hef has described - we're the musicians, but the sound engineer deals with the technical side of recording everything because that's his job, and the people who sort out the mastering do that because that's their job.

[BlobVanDam]

While the band is recording the album, they're hearing it through studio monitors before being mastered. After being send the master, they're probably checking it out on their own equipment in their cars or on their home stereos; average situations where it probably sounds fine.
I don't think most of the band would be too vocal about not being 100% happy with it, judging by their easy going personalities. JP is the producer, so he probably has final say on it, and I doubt he'd have any issues with the way the guitars sound. MM has said he's not completely happy with how the drums sound. Could he have said something along the way? Sure, but he went along with the artistic choices of others. Just because an album ended up the way it did, doesn't mean it represents 100% freedom from all parties. Any group endeavor is a compromise.

As has been said many times, they're not mastering engineers, they're professional musicians.

[rumborak]

I think a key point is also, look at how the album was perceived in this forum. When the CD came out, the forum was full of love for the album. A few weeks later people started saying "you know, the album is kinda tiring to listen to. It had little replay value, I barely listen to it at this point."
So, when JP receives the final CD, he puts it into his car stereo, and his initial reaction will be like ours: Lots of punch, and really in your face. But, after that he will likely not have listened to the CD.
And to corroborate this notion, there's an interview with Jim Matheos where he says he never listens to his music after it's done. I see no reason to assume JP is any different. I have only recorded one album in my life so far, but I also only listened to it once after it was produced. Many many years later I did again of course.

[ReaPsTA]

Yeah, I don't reall yhave any problem with the mix, which seems to be what Reap is talking about. It's the mastering that is the problem on the regular version. As someone else said, the HDtracks version mostly removes this problem and is certainly not a sonic failure.

I checked out the HDtracks clips and the difference is pretty clear.  So, if you want to talk about the mastering, DT12 definitely isn't what it could be.

EDIT:  Crucially, one of the worst flaws in the CD master (the overcompressed cymbals) is a lot better.

[Stadler]

Because the sound is what it is. 

I don't have a huge problem with DT12, although it is very loud.  But the best sounding albums, by and large, were the ones before they started self-producing.  Which indicates that they just aren't as good at that.  IMO, the only really good sounding album from the self-producing era is 6DOIT.  I have no idea why they haven't continued to do things the way they were done on that album.

Not sure about how saying they have "control" over the album art works in your favor, because by and large, the album covers aren't great either.

But Hef, and I say this with deep respect, what you think is "good" is immaterial.  There is no "in [my] favor".   What is this "good" you speak of?    They have final say on the art, and many fans don't like it.   So what?   My premise is that regardless of whether the fanbase likes them better or not, the albums with JP&MP (and later, just JP) are closer to what the band intends.  They INTEND for them to be loud.  We can complain about how they sound all day long (and for the record, ADTOE is not in my top five "favorite sounding DT albums") but I think the evidence shows they WANT - or at least accept - them that way. 

[rumborak]

stadler, I think you're confusing someone's ignorance of a thing with their explicit approval of it. Since Hef brought it up, I don't think they have *any* influence on the visuals these days. I think they see the stuff the first time when they hold the album in their hands.
And equally, I would not be surprised if JP views the mastering the album as a "post-processing" step that he isn't too much involved with. RR sends the mix to some guy who masters it, and then he hears the final product when he pops in the CD.

EDIT: Just found the JP quote that was mentioned by others:

https://www.facebook.com/johnpetrucciFB/posts/631908600194489

In case you can't open it, it's a link to HDTracks with him saying "This is what it sounded like as it was playing back in the mix studio. I think all music should be offered in HD!"

I don't know what to make of that. Isn't he saying "this is what our album should have sounded like but it doesn't"?
Additionally, I get the impression he thinks CDs can't be HD. That would further corroborate that he understands little of sound production.

[hefdaddy42]

Because the sound is what it is. 

I don't have a huge problem with DT12, although it is very loud.  But the best sounding albums, by and large, were the ones before they started self-producing.  Which indicates that they just aren't as good at that.  IMO, the only really good sounding album from the self-producing era is 6DOIT.  I have no idea why they haven't continued to do things the way they were done on that album.

Not sure about how saying they have "control" over the album art works in your favor, because by and large, the album covers aren't great either.

But Hef, and I say this with deep respect, what you think is "good" is immaterial.  There is no "in [my] favor".   What is this "good" you speak of?    They have final say on the art, and many fans don't like it.   So what?   My premise is that regardless of whether the fanbase likes them better or not, the albums with JP&MP (and later, just JP) are closer to what the band intends.  They INTEND for them to be loud.  We can complain about how they sound all day long (and for the record, ADTOE is not in my top five "favorite sounding DT albums") but I think the evidence shows they WANT - or at least accept - them that way.

I don't think it shows any such thing.  The only reason they wanted to become producers in the first place was so that no one else could tell them what to do, from a creative standpoint.  Now, since they are self-produced, they can write whatever they want, and no outside producer can tell them to cut this section or make this section longer or lose this bebot solo.  That's why they are self-produced, it's not because they are sonic geniuses or because they had a vision for their albums to be louder than they were before. 

[Calvin6s]

I would say the best way to send a message to DT is to stop buying the CDs and buy HDTracks, but there are probably a large chunk of fans that don't even know about HDTracks.

BTW, those loud TV commercials.  Those are on purpose as well, and as a consumer, we have a right to bitch about them.

[rumborak]

That FB post by JP actually had a surprising amount of flak in the comments. The most-liked comment was essentially a summary of our opinions here.

[Stadler]

As with all speculation, we'll have to agree to disagree.    I find it an incredibly illogical and unlikely proposition - colored by personal tastes - but nonetheless, it's certainly an opinion shared by many.   And make no mistake:  you guys might actually end up being right.   I'm not really saying you are wrong, just I don't understand how you get there without some better corroboration from the artist(s).

[hefdaddy42]

As with all speculation, we'll have to agree to disagree.    I find it an incredibly illogical and unlikely proposition - colored by personal tastes - but nonetheless, it's certainly an opinion shared by many.   

That's fine.  FWIW, I find your position also illogical and unlikely.

[ariich]

I find it an incredibly illogical and unlikely proposition

Really?

We know that people from the band publicly said that they were not going to be taken in by the loudness war. We then know that DT12 (CD version) is the loudest and most overly-compressed album they have made.

I would say that the fact that DT didn't realise what the mastering was doing to the sound is the most logical explanation, given this sequence of events. The main alternative is that they are entirely involved in every stage of the process and definitely heard the final CD version in advance and signed off on it. If that's the case, then either (a) previous comments about the loudness war were just a load of hot air, or (b) they genuinely don't know about compression and sound quality and don't realise how bad DT12 is.

Now, those are for sure possible. But in my opinion the more likely one is that they left that stuff to someone else and weren't aware of how it sounded before it was released.

[hefdaddy42]

I find it an incredibly illogical and unlikely proposition

Really?

We know that people from the band publicly said that they were not going to be taken in by the loudness war. We then know that DT12 (CD version) is the loudest and most overly-compressed album they have made.

I would say that the fact that DT didn't realise what the mastering was doing to the sound is the most logical explanation, given this sequence of events. The main alternative is that they are entirely involved in every stage of the process and definitely heard the final CD version in advance and signed off on it. If that's the case, then either (a) previous comments about the loudness war were just a load of hot air, or (b) they genuinely don't know about compression and sound quality and don't realise how bad DT12 is.

Now, those are for sure possible. But in my opinion the more likely one is that they left that stuff to someone else and weren't aware of how it sounded before it was released.

Exactly.

But whatever.

[rumborak]

BTW, somebody had asked for ToT in the graph (I think with the theory that maybe it's just the hard-hitting songs of DT12 that shift it to the right)



ToT is similar to DT12 in the lack of soft parts, but DT12 still clearly has a solid shift to the right in it. DT12 and SC still stand alone in terms of loudness.

But in my opinion the more likely one is that they left that stuff to someone else and weren't aware of how it sounded before it was released.

I just also find any other theory not being "squarable" with JP's quote above. "I think all audio should be released in HD". The only way I can interpret this is that DT12 was not released the way *he* would want to listen to it.

[Stadler]

FWIW, I find your position also illogical

I ask this for my benefit, but how so?   I'll give you the "unlikely", since we have no way of knowing until they tell us, but illogical?

[Stadler]

I find it an incredibly illogical and unlikely proposition

Really?

We know that people from the band publicly said that they were not going to be taken in by the loudness war. We then know that DT12 (CD version) is the loudest and most overly-compressed album they have made.

Do we know for sure that "not going to be taken in" means they weren't going to compress the hell out of stuff or that they weren't going to worry about all the guff from a small sector of their audience that bitched about the sound?   In other words, "not going to be taken in" doesn't really indicate which side they are on from the start.  And that DT12 is the loudest and most overly compressed album they ever made, doesn't logic point to the latter?

I would say that the fact that DT didn't realise what the mastering was doing to the sound is the most logical explanation, given this sequence of events. The main alternative is that they are entirely involved in every stage of the process and definitely heard the final CD version in advance and signed off on it. If that's the case, then either (a) previous comments about the loudness war were just a load of hot air, or (b) they genuinely don't know about compression and sound quality and don't realise how bad DT12 is.

Why does your definition of "bad" have to apply to them?  Look at it from their perspective.   What's the number of people that actually care?  Isn't this akin to Genesis having to listen to 5% of their audience say "play the old stuff" while they were selling out multiple nights at stadia playing "Illegal Alien"?  I guess I'm not letting this go, because just about every post that has an "A" and a "B" choice seems to disregard that they DO know what their OWN CD sounds like and are okay with it.

How can they not hear their own music before it is released?   How about all those times Mike showed up at Ed Trunk's studio and gave him an advance copy of something he was playing on?   And there's a great thought right there:  you don't think someone like Eddie Trunk wouldn't pull JP or MP or someone aside and say "Bro, your disk sounds like SHIT.  Next time, get involved more."? 

[hefdaddy42]

As with all speculation, we'll have to agree to disagree.   

I'm going to rest with this.  I think everyone on this side has expressed their reasons pretty clearly.  If you don't agree, OK.  But this is getting tiresome.

[Sycsa]

When the CD came out, the forum was full of love for the album. A few weeks later people started saying "you know, the album is kinda tiring to listen to. It had little replay value, I barely listen to it at this point."

I disagree with that observation and definitely wouldn't draw any conclusions based on it, as it's way too subjective and biased. The way I perceived it, there were a few vocal opinions like that (which often tend to stand out), but I remember having a poll a couple of months after the release and above 80% ranked the album as "one of DT's best" or "very strong."

[ariich]

When the CD came out, the forum was full of love for the album. A few weeks later people started saying "you know, the album is kinda tiring to listen to. It had little replay value, I barely listen to it at this point."

I disagree with that observation and definitely wouldn't draw any conclusions based on it, as it's way too subjective and biased. The way I perceived it, there were a few vocal opinions like that (which often tend to stand out), but I remember having a poll a couple of months after the release and above 80% ranked the album as "one of DT's best" or "very strong."

Yeah RIGHT from the start people (in general) liked the album but were commenting on the sound and how it was tiring to listen to. Subsequent polls at various points after that never really changed from what I noticed.

[Skeever]

Is DT12 considered in the top half of DT albums here? I wouldn't think so generally based on other people I've talked to, but I'd expect things to be a bit more positive here (though I still would be surprised to see DT12 ranked very highly).

[erwinrafael]

BTW, somebody had asked for ToT in the graph (I think with the theory that maybe it's just the hard-hitting songs of DT12 that shift it to the right)



ToT is similar to DT12 in the lack of soft parts, but DT12 still clearly has a solid shift to the right in it. DT12 and SC still stand alone in terms of loudness.

Thanks, rumbo. So the loudness is a combination of both. Shift to the metal sound (so we can use the ToT graph as some sort of baseline of where a predominantly metal-sounding album would generally be placed) and the compression (which shifted SC and DT to the right of ToT).

[rumborak]

You know, weirdly, initially I was going to reply "yeah, I can probably agree with that", but while I was writing it, I realized that I have a hard time putting DT12 into the same bracket (stylistically) as ToT.
Like, ToT was DT's Adrenaline Mob album. Balls to the wall, heavy hitting. DT12, in my book, is not that. Take for example AFTR. It's *supposed* to be the soft tune on the album, but it simply can't because it's so brickwalled.

So, in my opinion, the reason why ToT and DT12 look somewhat close to each other is because ToT was a hard-hitting album in an area of good production, whereas DT12 is a varied album in the age of terrible production.

[erwinrafael]

Hahaha. Well, I think I also agree with that now that you said it. But we are not sure where AFTR is in that graph right? It might be at the lower half of the DT curve (which is still loud as it is already at the upper half of the ToT curve). So yeah, you are right. DT the album is pretty loud, because it still ended up at the right of the ToT curve, even if, stylistically, ToT is generally more hard hitting.

On another note, I am now comparing FII, I&W and ToT. Are the graphs showing us that the spread of FII is not really about dynamic range but more about variety of songs? It appears that the kurtosis of the curves is more of a function of homogeneity in styles of songs, so I&W and ToT has a higher kurtosis than FII.

[rumborak]

I see what you're saying, but my take on all this is, DT has kinda been writing to the same playbook for a long time now. With the exception of maybe ToT, they've done an almost scripted "couple of hard hitters, couple of ballads, one epic..." approach to their albums. Singling out albums, other than ToT, is stretched, IMO.

To do a direct comparison, to me songwriting-wise AFTR and Take Away My Pain are very similar songs. Long, straight vocals, actually rather dominant guitar lines, and busy drums. The audio representation of the two could not be more different. In fact, I'm quite tempted to create a graph just for those two.

[erwinrafael]

That comparison would be very illuminating.

[hefdaddy42]

DO IT

[Prog Snob]

*waits patiently*   

[rumborak]

Probably not too surprising a graph
I think it drive home the point that in DT12 there is essentially no mid-range dynamic. It's either super-soft, or super-loud.

(btw, I'm now normalizing the y-axis by the length of each track now. That's why the values are so small now)

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Yeah, I don't get where the idea that DT12 is super heavy came from. Not only is it not close to TOT, it's nowhere near SC or BCSL in terms of heaviness either. TEI is definitely heavy, and there are some heavy moments in EM, BTV, and IT, but the rest of the album is closer to the FII/8V dynamic than anything else in the discography. I don't think it's just the mastering that gives this extra illusion of heaviness--it's also the snare and the loud guitars.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, I don't get where the idea that DT12 is super heavy came from. Not only is it not close to TOT, it's nowhere near SC or BCSL in terms of heaviness either. TEI is definitely heavy, and there are some heavy moments in EM, BTV, and IT, but the rest of the album is closer to the FII/8V dynamic than anything else in the discography. I don't think it's just the mastering that gives this extra illusion of heaviness--it's also the snare and the loud guitars.

The songs aren't composed to be heavy in style, but the arrangements and mixing are very heavy, with heavy guitar everywhere, and constant pounding drums, instead of letting the songs breathe, and it's not even comparable to the subtlety and dynamics of FII imo.

Much of the problem is the heavy mix and sounds they used, but I think it's also to do with the composition. There are moments when the songs could have benefited from not having guitar at all, or using a variety of sounds instead of the same rich chocolate cake every time. And a more dynamic drum sound would have allowed an intensity that reflects each song/section, rather than sounding like the drums are always being hit 100%. I recall MM said that the drum sound affected how he wrote and performed his parts.

Even look at the softer ballad of AFTR. Once the band comes in, it's just full on the entire time. Heavy guitar chords and riffs drowning out everything, and that drum sound doesn't allow any softness. It sounds like a metal cover of a ballad, instead of sounding like a ballad.

[rumborak]

Crazy.

[Prog Snob]

Extremely telling.

[Calvin6s]

Hmm.  So the higher spikes were just averaged out because they were so quick (like the snap of a snare)?

I wish they would just release the dynamic versions.  Most hardware players have some sort of loudness button, Replay Gain, leveling feature.  The problem is you can take a dynamic version and compress/squeeze it to have the loudness factor for noisy listening environments.  But you can't go the other direction.

[Calvin6s]

The graph changed.  Doesn't the red (non-HD) actually have a wider dynamic range spread?