DT12 CD vs HDTracks - A visual representation

[fischermasamune]

There's still something I can't understand. How can music have specific values for dB (or RMS) in certain places, when the volume of a song depends on how much do you turn some know or press some buttons?

Also, playing the devil's advocate here but in a reflection of a true doubt: if a lot of DT12 is hidden in the 0-2,000 range (given that we need area for it) and there's a bunch on 10,000, wouldn't it make DT12 more dynamic than I&W whose values which is mainly distributed from 2,000 to 8,000?

[rumborak]

when the volume of a song depends on how much do you turn some know or press some buttons?

I have difficulty parsing this sentence. Can you reword it?

Also, playing the devil's advocate here but in a reflection of a true doubt: if a lot of DT12 is hidden in the 0-2,000 range (given that we need area for it) and there's a bunch on 10,000, wouldn't it make DT12 more dynamic than I&W whose values which is mainly distributed from 2,000 to 8,000?

I think a lot of the values in the 0-2000 range are just plain silence. Be that between tracks, or for example the long prelude to the orchestral section in IT.
But, at last in my book, silence isn't what I would call "dynamics" in a song. To me, dynamics is the volume change *within* a song, not just pauses outside of it.
I think specifically, what's so striking about DT12's distribution is that, outside the 0-2000 silence range, almost all other energy is confined to the high values.

[fischermasamune]

My question was about the existence of an intrinsic value for loudness for music. Every time you listen to a recorded song, you listen through some equipment, and most if not all audio devices allow you to change the volume (if it's 0, it's on mute).

[Skeever]

My question was about the existence of an intrinsic value for loudness for music. Every time you listen to a recorded song, you listen through some equipment, and most if not all audio devices allow you to change the volume (if it's 0, it's on mute).

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

[Stadler]

What genre was the first to really start this super hot, compressed sound?  I'm thinking industrial music?

Some people say it was the oasis debut Definitely Maybe - which was mixed to have no dynamics at all.

That's part of the problem of this for me.   If you google this sort of thing, especially if you start to get into the forums for various bands, everyone from Motorhead to Slayer to Enya to Celine Dion is "brickwalled".   Honestly, I play Devil's Advocate a lot in these threads for this reason.   Having said that, here, it is clear that the people making their case (whether I agree with it or not) know whereof they speak.  Nine times out of ten, however, the person yapping and bitching about "the production" and "brickwalling" doesn't know the first thing about what they are talking about.   When you get right down to it, they are really bitching because [insert favorite band]'s latest album doesn't sound like [insert their favorite album].

Over the years, I've heard complaints about Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, Bruce Springsteen, Led Zeppelin and Christina Aguilera, which in part is what drives my skepticism of this whole issue.    While I don't think for a second that John Petrucci or Jordan Rudess are releasing material that they don't approve of, if you told me, hand on heart, that they didn't like it but were forced by the record companies to comply, I would grudgingly accept that.   But Paul McCartney?   Sir Paul Fucking McCartney?   At this point, he probably has as much clout in the music industry as any artist alive (and if he doesn't, it is likely Bruce Springsteen or Jimmy Page, both also on the list) and you cannot convince me, without a direct quote in response to a direct question on the issue, that he doesn't approve of every one of his releases before it hits the street.   The meticulousness for which he is reknowned throughout his career on all levels - music, lyrics, publishing, artwork, etc. - all of a sudden miraculously goes out the window upon mastering?   I'm thinking not.   

[rumborak]

Stadler, no offense, but your block of text there strikes as one of those attempts to "verbose away" a problem by simply producing the most text against it. I mean, do you seriously claim that DT12 does not have a dynamics problem? I think the various graphs in this thread show that it is one of the loudest DT albums ever produced, and that the signal was driven heavily into the limit of the compressor.

[Kotowboy]

Paul McCartney's Memory Almost Full album was definitely clipped and hurt to listen to. 

[rumborak]

Also, having a big established name means very little. I'm pretty sure Rush had complete artistic when it came to producing Vapor Trails. At that point they had been 30 years in the business, and yet produced an horrendously brickwalled album. And they even realized it themselves later, and rereleased it completely remastered.

[Prog Snob]

Also, having a big established name means very little. I'm pretty sure Rush had complete artistic when it came to producing Vapor Trails. At that point they had been 30 years in the business, and yet produced an horrendously brickwalled album. And they even realized it themselves later, and rereleased it completely remastered.

Very true.  I'm sure listening to a final product in studio sounds different than throwing the CD into your home stereo.  We don't know what Rush or Dream Theater or Paul McCartney actually listen to as the finished product.  Like I mentioned earlier, with all of Jordan Rudess' musical proficiency, do you think he listened to the CD and said "yes this is the best we can do."

[rumborak]

My question was about the existence of an intrinsic value for loudness for music. Every time you listen to a recorded song, you listen through some equipment, and most if not all audio devices allow you to change the volume (if it's 0, it's on mute).

That's why the shape of the distributions is important too. I agree, IAW and Awake aren't really all that different, it's just that Awake is shifted to a higher volume.
However, the x-scale in those graphs isn't really open-ended. The reason being, a signal on a CD can only operate in the range -32,767 to 32,767. So, the higher you push the RMS value, the more and more likely you are pushing your audio signal into the limit. In fact, the highest theoretical RMS value possible for a section *is* the value 32,767 (this would be a signal that goes plus maximum -> minus maximum back and forth).


EDIT: Here's a visual example of the infamous section in TDEN:



I would think you'd agree this audio is massively clipped. It has an RMS value of ~19,700, meaning if you operate in that area of RMS, your signal is very likely to be clipped.

[Stadler]

Stadler, no offense, but your block of text there strikes as one of those attempts to "verbose away" a problem by simply producing the most text against it. I mean, do you seriously claim that DT12 does not have a dynamics problem? I think the various graphs in this thread show that it is one of the loudest DT albums ever produced, and that the signal was driven heavily into the limit of the compressor.

Do I think it is one of (if not the) loudest DT albums every produced?  Yes.
Do I agree that the signal was driven heavily into the limit of the compressor?  Yes.
Do I consider that something I don't really want to listen to?  Yes.
Do I consider that a "problem"?   There's the rub.

If Petrucci (*or whoever represents the band on these matters) said "Roadrunner, please, I beg of you, DO NOT release this this way!" and yet they did, then, yes, it is a huge problem.   (This is "Vapor Trails", to me).
If Petrucci* said "Bro, this is awesome, I love it, I can't wait for everyone to have their ears blistered!" then no, it isn't a problem at all.  (This is The Stooges "Raw Power", to me).
If Petrucci*, like Geddy Lee on other Rush releases, said "well, it is a compromise, but, at this point, a compromise that I am willing to live with", then, honeslty, no, I don't see it as a problem.   (This is, in my view, with no insider knowledge, the closest to the reality of the situation).

It is not a problem just because some graph is moved out to the right from where it could be.

[Stadler]

Also, having a big established name means very little. I'm pretty sure Rush had complete artistic when it came to producing Vapor Trails. At that point they had been 30 years in the business, and yet produced an horrendously brickwalled album. And they even realized it themselves later, and rereleased it completely remastered.

They've gone on record as saying they were not fully in control of the situation, though in typical (classy beyond belief) Rush fashion, they took responsibility for it.   Geddy Lee has been very upfront about this issue.    He has said that the band was not "of right mind" at that time, and were focused on other things (primarily Neil's well-being) and that while they could have stopped it, they didn't, but it wasn't a matter of "this is exactly what we want!" then later said "oops!".  I shouldn't have to provide links; we all know how to Google.  He has been forthright on other releases (such as Clockwork Angels, which is also relatively hot) that it is a compromise that he and the band consciously make, but is one that he can live with and if it ever crosses the line, he is willing to make a stand.  So you can rest easy that excepting the initial VT release, at least Geddy is signing off on Rush's contribution to the loudness wars.

[Stadler]

Also, having a big established name means very little. I'm pretty sure Rush had complete artistic when it came to producing Vapor Trails. At that point they had been 30 years in the business, and yet produced an horrendously brickwalled album. And they even realized it themselves later, and rereleased it completely remastered.

Very true.  I'm sure listening to a final product in studio sounds different than throwing the CD into your home stereo.  We don't know what Rush or Dream Theater or Paul McCartney actually listen to as the finished product.  Like I mentioned earlier, with all of Jordan Rudess' musical proficiency, do you think he listened to the CD and said "yes this is the best we can do."

And I'm saying that absent some statement otherwise, it is just as likely and just as logical that the answer to that is "yes I do think that" as it is "no I don't".   (Though admittedly it is more likely "I can live with this as a representation of my band" as it is "this is the best we can do").

[rumborak]

So your point is (just to see whether I understand it correctly), if it corresponds to the artist's vision, it might not be something anybody really likes, but it's not a problem since that's what, in the end, art is? Not that I necessarily disagree with that argument, mind you.
I don't think however that JP is really aware of this problem, as little as Rush were aware of it when they released Vapor Trails. I think during the recording process, artists can get caught up in the thick of it and lose perspective of the grand total. That's why having an independent producer is so vitally important. Other than giving you fresh ideas, he will simply not have lost sight of the whole thing, since he's somewhat outside the creative process.

EDIT: Particularly in the case of DT, *who have said* they were done with the loudness war, to then go on and producing an album on par in loudness with their hitherto loudest album, really makes me wonder whether a) JP and JR really are not aware of it or b) they're just paying lip service to the fans who ask, but intend to continue making super-compressed albums because they presume that that's what people want to hear.

[Prog Snob]

Also, having a big established name means very little. I'm pretty sure Rush had complete artistic when it came to producing Vapor Trails. At that point they had been 30 years in the business, and yet produced an horrendously brickwalled album. And they even realized it themselves later, and rereleased it completely remastered.

Very true.  I'm sure listening to a final product in studio sounds different than throwing the CD into your home stereo.  We don't know what Rush or Dream Theater or Paul McCartney actually listen to as the finished product.  Like I mentioned earlier, with all of Jordan Rudess' musical proficiency, do you think he listened to the CD and said "yes this is the best we can do."

And I'm saying that absent some statement otherwise, it is just as likely and just as logical that the answer to that is "yes I do think that" as it is "no I don't".   (Though admittedly it is more likely "I can live with this as a representation of my band" as it is "this is the best we can do").

I doubt Jordan Rudess and John Petrucci (who is extremely picky about everything when it comes to the music)  heard that and was pleased and thought the production on the CD was top quality.  It's obvious, based  on what we now about JP, that what they heard in the studio was probably nothing like what we hear on a CD. 

[Stadler]

So your point is (just to see whether I understand it correctly), if it corresponds to the artist's vision, it might not be something anybody really likes, but it's not a problem since that's what, in the end, art is? Not that I necessarily disagree with that argument, mind you.

That's my position, generally, though I will concede that I think the loudness issue is a little more nuanced.  I think in many cases it falls into the grey area of "this isn't my first choice, but it isn't an issue I want to make my Waterloo". 

I don't think however that JP is really aware of this problem, as little as Rush were aware of it when they released Vapor Trails. I think during the recording process, artists can get caught up in the thick of it and lose perspective of the grand total. That's why having an independent producer is so vitally important. Other than giving you fresh ideas, he will simply not have lost sight of the whole thing, since he's somewhat outside the creative process.

Look, this is civil, and I understand and respect that your opinion is as valid (perhaps in some ways more valid) than mine, but I respectfully disagree with that first statement.  I don't know how a) he can be, especially being in a band with someone who was SO plugged in to nuances and foibles of the music industry for as long as he has and b) why anyone would base an argument on a professional in the field - and one recognized by many as being among the top in his field - being wholly and completely ignorant of a pretty significant issue, and one which even laymen can figure out ("why does this sound like SHIT?").   You don't think JP has heard/read articles about his favorite band's record?  You don't think JP has asked himself why his favorite band had to remix a recent album?   You don't think a guy that has written some of the very introspective lyrics he has written doesn't at some point look in the mirror and say "does that happen to us"? 

EDIT: Particularly in the case of DT, *who have said* they were done with the loudness war, to then go on and producing an album on par in loudness with their hitherto loudest album, really makes me wonder whether a) JP and JR really are not aware of it or b) they're just paying lip service to the fans who ask, but intend to continue making super-compressed albums because they presume that that's what people want to hear.

Well, first, what does "we're done with the loudness war" mean?  That they aren't going to continue to push levels, or they aren't going to worry about whether they do push the levels?  Or aren't going to care one way or another, as long as the mixes and masters they issue sound good to them?    This is a legitimate question, because I haven't seen the quote except as stated here.  I know when I first heard it, I interpreted it as a statement of "indifference", not, as some have taken it, as a pledge to respond with a quality of sound that appeases the most diehard loudness war freedom fighter.    Unless I have some statement otherwise, I assume that someone who has dedicated their entire lives and sacrificed their time with their family are responsible for their artistic output.  It simply makes NO sense to assume otherwise.  So I assume it is b), but replace "they presume that that's what people want to hear" with "that's the way they like it".   

[ariich]

So your point is (just to see whether I understand it correctly), if it corresponds to the artist's vision, it might not be something anybody really likes, but it's not a problem since that's what, in the end, art is? Not that I necessarily disagree with that argument, mind you.
I don't think however that JP is really aware of this problem, as little as Rush were aware of it when they released Vapor Trails. I think during the recording process, artists can get caught up in the thick of it and lose perspective of the grand total. That's why having an independent producer is so vitally important. Other than giving you fresh ideas, he will simply not have lost sight of the whole thing, since he's somewhat outside the creative process.

EDIT: Particularly in the case of DT, *who have said* they were done with the loudness war, to then go on and producing an album on par in loudness with their hitherto loudest album, really makes me wonder whether a) JP and JR really are not aware of it or b) they're just paying lip service to the fans who ask, but intend to continue making super-compressed albums because they presume that that's what people want to hear.

I basically agree with this. If a production style (including overly loud/compressed) is an artist's intention/vision, that's fine. However, when JP spoke about how exciting the HDtracks releases were, he said something about it being great to have them in the un-mastered HD quality that they get in the studio. Which strongly suggests that what the band hears is pre-mastering. So I doubt the band is really aware of the problem.

[hefdaddy42]

Unless I have some statement otherwise, I assume that someone who has dedicated their entire lives and sacrificed their time with their family are responsible for their artistic output.  It simply makes NO sense to assume otherwise. 

I agree.  But when I think of DT's (or any other artist) "artistic output," I am thinking of the music they write and perform, not the mastering on the recording.  I have no reason to believe that they or any other artist knows all that much about that part of the business, until they prove that they do.  They are fantastic musicians, to be sure, but I don't for one minute think it is a coincidence that their best-sounding albums were done with outside producers.

[rumborak]

^^^ Absolutely.

I think it's tempting to assume that just because they know their instruments really well, they are well-versed in every aspect of music production.
Specifically, I would like to point out, they dropped out of Berklee after the first year, so it's not that they learned it either. And yes, ever since they took the helm at production, their studio releases have had one production issue or another.

[ReaPsTA]

I'll be the person that defends DT12's production:

1.  I can hear all the instruments relatively clearly.  The keyboard balance in particular isn't quite as good as ADTOE, but nothing ever just feels buried in the mix or muddy.

2.  I can turn it up.  A lot of highly compressed albums are very harsh on my ears if I turn them up.  There's too much pain relative to the amount of music I'm taking in.  DT12 I can crank really loud without feeling an inordinate amount of pain.

3.  I like the aesthetics.  I'm apparently the only person here who likes the drum sound.  It slams relentlessly and is very dark, which matches the material.  Unlike ADTOE, they're nice and loud how I like them.  Except for TEI (vocals are too soft), JLB's vocal mix on this album is one of his best.  Very lush and full.  Maybe my favorite guitar tone on any DT album.  Bass is very audible and aggressive (before, it felt like either JM had too much or too little distortion).  The keyboard arrangements are very stripped back, but what's left contributes a lot of tone without taking away the metallic quality of the music (a problem Paul Northfield said DT grappled with).

There's a lot of bad things to be said about DT12's production, but people act like the record is a sonic failure, which I don't agree with.  Also, the past is too easily romanticized.  The bass on I&W is pretty muddy, distractingly so sometimes.  The snare on FII is sometimes distractingly loud.  DT12 definitely sounds better than anything producted from SFAM to BCSL.  And maybe better than ADTOE too (depends on what you value from a mix).

Why the hate yo?

[Calvin6s]

Some things are open to artistic interpretation, but some things are just technical issues.  We seem to be talking about a technical issue here.

It is almost like producing a surround sound movie soundtrack in mono.  In rare cases, there might be an artistic call for that, but the standard soundscape rarely calls for that.

[Implode]

For me, DT12 is the worst sounding album. Okay...maybe second worst, but it's just frustrating to me.

[Skeever]

I'll be the person that defends DT12's production:

1.  I can hear all the instruments relatively clearly.  The keyboard balance in particular isn't quite as good as ADTOE, but nothing ever just feels buried in the mix or muddy.

2.  I can turn it up.  A lot of highly compressed albums are very harsh on my ears if I turn them up.  There's too much pain relative to the amount of music I'm taking in.  DT12 I can crank really loud without feeling an inordinate amount of pain.

3.  I like the aesthetics.  I'm apparently the only person here who likes the drum sound.  It slams relentlessly and is very dark, which matches the material.  Unlike ADTOE, they're nice and loud how I like them.  Except for TEI (vocals are too soft), JLB's vocal mix on this album is one of his best.  Very lush and full.  Maybe my favorite guitar tone on any DT album.  Bass is very audible and aggressive (before, it felt like either JM had too much or too little distortion).  The keyboard arrangements are very stripped back, but what's left contributes a lot of tone without taking away the metallic quality of the music (a problem Paul Northfield said DT grappled with).

There's a lot of bad things to be said about DT12's production, but people act like the record is a sonic failure, which I don't agree with.  Also, the past is too easily romanticized.  The bass on I&W is pretty muddy, distractingly so sometimes.  The snare on FII is sometimes distractingly loud.  DT12 definitely sounds better than anything producted from SFAM to BCSL.  And maybe better than ADTOE too (depends on what you value from a mix).

Why the hate yo?

"Sonic failure" is actually the exact description I'd use. I agree with the part about the past being romanticized, actually, but DT12 is easily a new low in a low string of lows for production value. The thing that stinks is I'm pretty sure DT are trying to do better, they're just not getting the right people in place to do it.

[fischermasamune]

Skeever and rumborak, thanks for educating me. I went after some other sources to understand the issue better.

Maybe bands & producers go for loud music because it fits better with noisy environments, where most music nowadays is heard. One solution would be to find a soft solution in which the equipment can be adjusted on the go, or it can be turned on/off (like an equalizer) to match the listener's preferences.

[erwinrafael]

The HD Tracks version of DT is a not a sonic failure. The CD version, it's fine, because it's very listenable in listening environments that are more commonplace nowadays (that is, on a commute, in your workstation, in a coffee shop, while working out, while in the car, etc.), which I think is the reason why they went with that compressed sound that could break through the environment noise. It does not work well in quiet environments, though, so the HD Tracks version is the one that's built for that.

I can listen to the full album of the CD version of DT at full volume in outdoor environments (not with in-ears but with my ordinary earphones). Even did it back to back a couple of times. Never got a headache or listening fatigue.

The vocal dissenters are really just very vocal and push their opinions as facts, or present their numbers as some sort of consensus. But the production of DT the album is not really that bad, it's not the lowest of low, etc. But it's the way in this forum, just like in other online forums. The more vocal you are, the more hyperboles are used, the more legitimate your opinions are.

Anyway, for the next album, I hope they would try to experiment with a less compressed sound that would still work well in outside environments where music is mostly consumed nowadays. The Haken mix in The Mountain might be ok. Even the ToT mix is ok with me.

Also, four more production wishes:

1. Better snare sound that catches the subtleties in the playing so that the ghost notes can be heard. BTFW shows that it makes a lot of difference.
2. For cymbals, specially the rides and hi-hats, not to be buried in the mix.
3. A deeper bass sound. The trebly bass in the DT album is not bad, it's very in-your-face and catches attention. But I prefer the bass providing more bottom. 
4. A more pronounced keyboard sound. It's part of the reason why I like TLG much morre in BTFW than in DT.

[erwinrafael]

Then it could really just be a function of having a variety of softer and louder songs.

I don't think so.  And I have no idea why you would think that.

Is it not logical to think that an album full of metal pieces would have a curve that would be up in the louder level than an album with a lot of ballads, which would would have more of the curve at the softer end of the spectrum?

FII in rumbo's graphs really appear to be more dynamics, but again, it could be influenced by having a mix of soft ballads and loud metal songs. It's the reason why I am asking for a similar graph of ToT, just to see if an album with a lot of metal songs would end up with a distribution that is quite similar to DT or SC.

[Rodni Demental]

"Sonic failure" is actually the exact description I'd use.

All things considered though, there is a decent balance in the mixing, despite the compression. The instruments are all audible within their own space despite the 'loudness'. Most of the impressions when the album first came out ranged from 'not too bad' to 'pretty good', and a lot were even praising the mix. Not the master mind you, which started to be recognised for what it was soon enough, but "Sonic failure"? That's more what I'd expect someone who's exaggerating the issue to label it. Not to dismiss the validity of some people's claims. But from my perspective, I pretty much agree with almost everything Stadler's said regarding the situation.

[ariich]

Yeah, I don't reall yhave any problem with the mix, which seems to be what Reap is talking about. It's the mastering that is the problem on the regular version. As someone else said, the HDtracks version mostly removes this problem and is certainly not a sonic failure.

[Bolsters]

I think there should have been much more balance between the instruments. I haven't listened to the album in many months, but I think TLG for an example had a few spots where there was some keyboard going on underneath all that guitar, but most of the time it's too difficult to isolate or focus on, because the guitar is just so in-your-face the whole time. The bass could definitely be more audible too, but I guess we're so used to JM being buried by now anyway that it just seems normal that way.

[nikatapi]

My main complains with DT12 sound are:

1) Cymbal volume. Better than ADTOE, but still much of MM's intricate patterns are lost because of the overwhelming guitar. BTFW is much better.
2)JR volume. He is buried a lot of times, case in point: TLG. Also an improvement on BTFW
3)James' vocal effects. He sometimes sounds so artificial and i don't like it. I would love to see James sounding more natural again.

[Bolsters]

3)James' vocal effects. He sometimes sounds so artificial and i don't like it. I would love to see James sounding more natural again.

Oh yes, I forgot about that. I would definitely would like less effects on JLB's vocals going forward. He doesn't need it either, he sounded great on Impermanent Resonance.

[Stadler]

I basically agree with this. If a production style (including overly loud/compressed) is an artist's intention/vision, that's fine. However, when JP spoke about how exciting the HDtracks releases were, he said something about it being great to have them in the un-mastered HD quality that they get in the studio. Which strongly suggests that what the band hears is pre-mastering. So I doubt the band is really aware of the problem.

Honest question:  doesn't this ("[It is] great to have them in the un-mastered HD quality") kind of strongly imply that they ARE aware of the condition (I don't call it a "problem")?    Doesn't saying it is great to have them un-mastered require a comparison to the mastered state? 

[Stadler]

Unless I have some statement otherwise, I assume that someone who has dedicated their entire lives and sacrificed their time with their family are responsible for their artistic output.  It simply makes NO sense to assume otherwise. 

I agree.  But when I think of DT's (or any other artist) "artistic output," I am thinking of the music they write and perform, not the mastering on the recording.  I have no reason to believe that they or any other artist knows all that much about that part of the business, until they prove that they do.  They are fantastic musicians, to be sure, but I don't for one minute think it is a coincidence that their best-sounding albums were done with outside producers.

This is an open question, and I'm asking because I've posed this before (on MP's site, on Fish's site, on Genesis' old site, and on Ed Trunk's site) and haven't gotten a really convincing answer yet:

Why would an artist take in some cases YEARS out of their life, putting in some cases their most cherished and heart-felt thoughts down on tape, working with multiple people over multiple takes, sometimes even scrapping everything to start again, in order to come up with the best possible work... then completely and utterly abdicate the last - and since it is the step that is the "touch" point with their audience - arguably most important step?   You have Waters and the Dead and Zappa spending millions of dollars to put live sound rigs together so that the person standing in Row 35 of Section B gets the full experience and yet your argument is that they are ignorant of the ONE STEP that prepares their baby for audience consumption?   

[hefdaddy42]

They generally hire professionals to do what you are talking about.  Because they are musicians, not sound reinforcement engineers.  It's a whole separate thing.

They make the music, but that doesn't mean they are experts on making the music sound good.  Some are (Steven Wilson, for example), but that is a rarity.  That's why producers have jobs.

I have no idea why you would conflate the two.

On a much smaller scale, I play music in my church band.  At various times I play guitar or drums, and often sing as well.  But I don't have anything to do with how the band sounds to the audience.  That's not my job.  It's the sound man's job.  He mixes the sound, not me.

If something sounds off to me through the monitor mix, I try to describe what I'm hearing, and then he messes around with levels and EQ and effects until he gets it right.  That's what he does.  I just play and sing.

[Stadler]

They generally hire professionals to do what you are talking about.  Because they are musicians, not sound reinforcement engineers.  It's a whole separate thing.

They make the music, but that doesn't mean they are experts on making the music sound good.  Some are (Steven Wilson, for example), but that is a rarity.  That's why producers have jobs.

I have no idea why you would conflate the two.

But I'm not conflating the two at all.   Not suggesting they know HOW to do it, but they should (and I think DO) know WHAT to do.   Fish and Portnoy aren't artists either (to my knowledge) and they hire artists (Mark Wilkinson and Hugh Syme as examples) to ACTUALLY do the art, but they are involved in the concept, layout, content, and final look of the artwork.   They don't actually build and wire their rigs either (to my knowledge) but I'd be very very very surprised if there was a pedal in JPs rig that he hasn't asked for and approved.   

I am not at all suggesting that they ACTUALLY master the material, but - and I'm trying to be funny here, not offensive - if some idiot on a message board sitting in his mom's basement can decide that "this sounds like shit", I'm pretty confident that Jordan Rudess can arrive at the same conclusion, and can figure out a way to go to the masterer or the label contact or the manager and say "Guys...".   

If they can pick the producer - and if they have enough clout to say "we're producing this ourselves", you don't think they have the clout to say "we want to try a different masterer; Ted Jensen is great, but we want some new blood".   They did this with producers, keyboard players, engineers, and mixers... but masterers are somehow untouchable?

On a much smaller scale, I play music in my church band.  At various times I play guitar or drums, and often sing as well.  But I don't have anything to do with how the band sounds to the audience.  That's not my job.  It's the sound man's job.  He mixes the sound, not me.

If something sounds off to me through the monitor mix, I try to describe what I'm hearing, and then he messes around with levels and EQ and effects until he gets it right.  That's what he does.  I just play and sing.

But you just made my point for me:  if you don't like something you bring it to someone's attention.   I have played in bands as well (I Mum'ed in Philly for several years).   I wasn't the main guy, so I didn't have veto power, but my musical director did, and while he didn't play every instrument and didn't know how to get every sound, if he wasn't getting the sound he wanted, we didn't play another note. 

Again, I'm not saying that JP and JR have to actually do the mastering; but if it isn't to their satisfaction, they have recourse to have it redone.   Or go on record as having been dissatisfied with how it turned out.  We all know JP is no pussy; he has expressed dissatisfaction with others in the chain of music production.  Why not masterers?