"I think Primus is a bit more technically proficient"...thoughts?

[benrosemberg]

Hey all,

Been doing the rounds on Kijiji and Craigslist to find musicians in my area to jam with, and in one of my many email exchanges, I had a guy say this to me;

"DT is a very talented band, I think Primus is a bit more technically proficient personally but I guess it's hard to compare when you're talking about bands at that level."

Now, don't get me wrong, I know Primus is a talented band and Les Claypool is an incredible bassist...but even with that, I find it hard to believe anyone could compare the level of technical proficiency going on between both bands.

This may be the elitist prog-fan in me speaking, but to me, this is a case of this dude simply being unfamiliar with DT's material. I find it hard to believe that one could listen to one of the more jam-based tracks of their catalogue, and then still think that Primus is technically superior.

So, just to give the topic the benefit of the doubt (and in that, doubt my own view about DT), I thought I would reach out to fellow DT fans to see what your thoughts are. Am I crazy for thinking the guy's comment is inaccurate, or does he know something I don't?

Thoughts?

[Podaar]

In B4 Blob calls you both pretentious.

[Sycsa]

Jazz players destroy them both anyway.
Which reminds me of this cute little video displaying Buddy Rich's ignorant jazz elitism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0V4Aqs2D48

[ariich]

I agree with that dude that it's hard to compare when you're talking about bands at that level. Not sure what "more technically proficient" even means at that level, seems like a pretty pointless distinction.

[rumborak]

Jazz players destroy them both anyway.
Which reminds me of this cute little video displaying Buddy Rich's ignorant jazz elitism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0V4Aqs2D48

Wtf, that was just amazingly shortsighted. He's essentially saying "see what I'm doing with my right hand? You can't possibly do the same thing with the left."

[benrosemberg]

In B4 Blob calls you both pretentious.

It is self-admittedly pretentious, for sure lol

[benrosemberg]

Jazz players destroy them both anyway.

Granted...

[benrosemberg]

I agree with that dude that it's hard to compare when you're talking about bands at that level. Not sure what "more technically proficient" even means at that level, seems like a pretty pointless distinction.

It's pointless for sure, I just personally never thought Primus to be on the same level (and that may be due to the fact that there's just something I'm not seeing in their music). I guess part of my issue is that I still have this view that fast-speed unisons between guitar & keys = amazing technical proficiency. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that this is but one form of technical proficiency, and not even one indicative of superior proficiency - leaning towards the pointless distinction territory you so correctly identified.

[Stadler]

I agree with that dude that it's hard to compare when you're talking about bands at that level. Not sure what "more technically proficient" even means at that level, seems like a pretty pointless distinction.

It's pointless for sure, I just personally never thought Primus to be on the same level (and that may be due to the fact that there's just something I'm not seeing in their music). I guess part of my issue is that I still have this view that fast-speed unisons between guitar & keys = amazing technical proficiency. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that this is but one form of technical proficiency, and not even one indicative of superior proficiency - leaning towards the pointless distinction territory you so correctly identified.

Having seen both of them several times, I have no doubt that both could play the other's music.   The problem is that the original music created by each is so different as to be comparing a top of the line semi-tractor trailer with a top of the line luxury sedan. Both excellent, but not a lot of obvious cross-over, and I think the "east-west" thing is bigger than some might think (though they do share a number of common influences).     I do know that Les was for a second and a half considered for the Newsted spot in Metallica, and Ler has a rich history in thrash metal that doesn't come through often in the Primus catalogue.  (Trivia:  find yourself a copy of Yngwie's first two solo albums - Rising Force and Marching Out - and check out who the engineer is).

[benrosemberg]

I agree with that dude that it's hard to compare when you're talking about bands at that level. Not sure what "more technically proficient" even means at that level, seems like a pretty pointless distinction.

It's pointless for sure, I just personally never thought Primus to be on the same level (and that may be due to the fact that there's just something I'm not seeing in their music). I guess part of my issue is that I still have this view that fast-speed unisons between guitar & keys = amazing technical proficiency. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that this is but one form of technical proficiency, and not even one indicative of superior proficiency - leaning towards the pointless distinction territory you so correctly identified.

Having seen both of them several times, I have no doubt that both could play the other's music.   The problem is that the original music created by each is so different as to be comparing a top of the line semi-tractor trailer with a top of the line luxury sedan. Both excellent, but not a lot of obvious cross-over, and I think the "east-west" thing is bigger than some might think (though they do share a number of common influences).     I do know that Les was for a second and a half considered for the Newsted spot in Metallica, and Ler has a rich history in thrash metal that doesn't come through often in the Primus catalogue.  (Trivia:  find yourself a copy of Yngwie's first two solo albums - Rising Force and Marching Out - and check out who the engineer is).

This...that's what I was thinking would be the case - an issue of one plays a genre where virtuosity/proficiency is a huge part of the sound, but the other not so much. I would agree they could play each other's part. Excellent post!

Wow...did not know Lester Claypool did the engineering for Malmsteen...learn something new every day!

[Podaar]

These type of discussions baffle me. It appears that we are merely trying to justify our own personal tastes (or quantify its superiority) which shouldn't be necessary, or so it seems to me. We like what we like and are impressed with what impresses us.

Maybe its because I'm not a musician and have no skill with it but I've been impressed with (and loved the music of) Hank Williams (not Jr.), Tchaikovsky, Frank Zappa, AC/DC, Adele, B.Ö.C.,Prince, The Black Keys, Kamelot, two many others to mention, and yes Primus and Dream Theater. I honestly don't know that anyone is any more "technically proficient" than the other, nor does it seem like a very compelling question.

On a side note, I love the word proficient. It really brings out the AD&D geek in me. 

[Stadler]

This...that's what I was thinking would be the case - an issue of one plays a genre where virtuosity/proficiency is a huge part of the sound, but the other not so much. I would agree they could play each other's part. Excellent post!

Just a random thought, and not an argument, but I would offer that both require a virtuosity and proficiency, but of different kinds.  There are no "blazing unison runs" in Primus' music, but their music is far more intricate and thought out than the "we're Primus, and we suck!" ethos would have you believe.   They've covered Floyd, Crimson (huge Crim heads, Primus), Rush, and Peter Gabriel, and are very much influenced by Zappa.  I believe Primus to be "proficient" in the same way as Zappa, which is very different from the proficiency of a DT. 

[ariich]

Having seen both of them several times, I have no doubt that both could play the other's music.   The problem is that the original music created by each is so different as to be comparing a top of the line semi-tractor trailer with a top of the line luxury sedan. Both excellent, but not a lot of obvious cross-over, and I think the "east-west" thing is bigger than some might think (though they do share a number of common influences).     I do know that Les was for a second and a half considered for the Newsted spot in Metallica, and Ler has a rich history in thrash metal that doesn't come through often in the Primus catalogue.  (Trivia:  find yourself a copy of Yngwie's first two solo albums - Rising Force and Marching Out - and check out who the engineer is).

This...that's what I was thinking would be the case - an issue of one plays a genre where virtuosity/proficiency is a huge part of the sound, but the other not so much. I would agree they could play each other's part. Excellent post!

Yep, I'd agree with all this.

I can see where you were coming from, Ben, but I would say there's a difference between the music and the musicians.  And even then, as Stadler says, music like Primus's can be incredibly intricate, requiring a different sort of technical skill to simply playing fast.

When it comes to fast playing, you can go on youtube and find people a level or two above any of the pro musicians that we listen to, doing things that seem like they should be impossible. While I enjoy this sort of thing as I find it entertaining, I think diverse/versatile musicians are more skillful that those who have been absurdly good at one or two things.

[benrosemberg]

Having seen both of them several times, I have no doubt that both could play the other's music.   The problem is that the original music created by each is so different as to be comparing a top of the line semi-tractor trailer with a top of the line luxury sedan. Both excellent, but not a lot of obvious cross-over, and I think the "east-west" thing is bigger than some might think (though they do share a number of common influences).     I do know that Les was for a second and a half considered for the Newsted spot in Metallica, and Ler has a rich history in thrash metal that doesn't come through often in the Primus catalogue.  (Trivia:  find yourself a copy of Yngwie's first two solo albums - Rising Force and Marching Out - and check out who the engineer is).

This...that's what I was thinking would be the case - an issue of one plays a genre where virtuosity/proficiency is a huge part of the sound, but the other not so much. I would agree they could play each other's part. Excellent post!

Yep, I'd agree with all this.

I can see where you were coming from, Ben, but I would say there's a difference between the music and the musicians.  And even then, as Stadler says, music like Primus's can be incredibly intricate, requiring a different sort of technical skill to simply playing fast.

When it comes to fast playing, you can go on youtube and find people a level or two above any of the pro musicians that we listen to, doing things that seem like they should be impossible. While I enjoy this sort of thing as I find it entertaining, I think diverse/versatile musicians are more skillful that those who have been absurdly good at one or two things.

For sure! And on a separate note, I'm happy this thread went down in a civil manner. I know these kinds of topics have the potential to result in name calling and pointless argument...glad this was not the case!

[Mindflux]

Interesting topic.

Primus is one of my favorite bands.. maybe above DT.. though obviously DT has had more output in recent years than Primus so I've been much more engaged in DT.

However, I will say Larry LaLonde is way way way way way way way fecking underrated. His guitar work is bad ass when you pay attention to it over Les on bass. We already all know Les is a monster... Ler needs a bit more attention!

[Podaar]

Interesting topic.

Primus is one of my favorite bands.. maybe above DT.. though obviously DT has had more output in recent years than Primus so I've been much more engaged in DT.

However, I will say Larry LaLonde is way way way way way way way fecking underrated. His guitar work is bad ass when you pay attention to it over Les on bass. We already all know Les is a monster... Ler needs a bit more attention!

Agreed.

[hefdaddy42]

Primus is sick.  They are very technically proficient.  They just play a different kind of music.

[Kotowboy]

I think Myung is a better bassist than Claypool though.

I'd say Tim Alexander is a bit better than Portnoy but not as good as Mangini.

[King Postwhore]

Primus is sick.  They are very technically proficient.  They just play a different kind of music.

I so wanted to change the word "sick" with "sucks" in that Primus way but it really wouldn't work.

[TheCountOfNYC]

As a bassist I have always been blown away by Les Claypool. In terms of technical proficiency I put only Victor Wooten above him. While I haven't paid as much attention to the rest of the band, I can certainly tell that they're all very talented. But in terms of music, Primus doesn't really do anything for me. That's the important thing. You can be as good a player as you want but if you don't translate that into music that grabs the listener then it doesn't matter. I'm not saying Primus is bad because they definitely aren't. I'm just saying that for me, Dream Theater do a better job at translating their immense talent into engaging music.

[Podaar]

But in terms of music, Primus doesn't really do anything for me.

Well, they can't all be zingers.

[Kotowboy]

But in terms of music, Primus doesn't really do anything for me.

Well, they can't all be zingers.

 

I never know if Ler is that good or not - he can obviously play but he's really sloppy too. I think the Tommy The Cat solo is his best performance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hevtLRjLJ2c  This is good too.

[ariich]

For sure! And on a separate note, I'm happy this thread went down in a civil manner. I know these kinds of topics have the potential to result in name calling and pointless argument...glad this was not the case!

Yep, this is DTF. It's rare that things aren't civil, unless a thread is started in a baiting sort of way. Welcome to the club.

In terms of technical proficiency I put only Victor Wooten above him.

Victor Wooten is awesome, and his music is really groovy as well.

[puppyonacid]

For sure! And on a separate note, I'm happy this thread went down in a civil manner. I know these kinds of topics have the potential to result in name calling and pointless argument...glad this was not the case!

Yep, this is DTF. It's rare that things aren't civil, unless a thread is started in a baiting sort of way. Welcome to the club.

In terms of technical proficiency I put only Victor Wooten above him.

Victor Wooten is awesome, and his music is really groovy as well.

There aren't many prolific master baiters on here are there?

I have to say that I know not a lot about Primus but I've been impressed with what I've heard. But they're not really in the same genre as DT anyway.

It all comes down to the same old ya like what ya like argument. These days,. I don't really have an opinion on who is better....I think a great example of that was how (unusually) divided that population here got over the John Petrucci/Brian May poll. It kind of underlined how silly those comparisons are. There's no question in that example who is the more technically proficient guitarist........but as far as who you prefer goes.....?

[wolfking]

Pretty good and interesting topic.  Not really into Primus and I've only heard their hits.  I don't mind their style and they are just different than DT I guess.  From a technical standpoint, from what I've heard DT is far superior, but I as I said, I haven't heard much Primus.

[bl5150]

I didn't even realise Primus had hits 

[wolfking]

I didn't even realise Primus had hits 

You know what I mean. 

[Skeever]

I would say the guys in DT are easily more proficient than the guys in Primus. The exception is Claypool > Myung. I like Myung, but his reputation is a bit baffling, since none of his parts have been anything really jaw-dropping since the 90s.

[Stadler]

I think Myung is a better bassist than Claypool though.

I'd say Tim Alexander is a bit better than Portnoy but not as good as Mangini.

This is an odd statement to me.  Unless you give the standard by which you measure (beats per minute?   number of youtube hits?) this is a meaningless statement.  I don't mean that in a rude way, but an observational way.  It's not as if Tim Alexander hit 36 homeruns to Portnoy's 32 and Mangini's 38.   Or Alexander has 3 Super Bowl rings to Portnoy's 2 and Mangini's 4.   Absent some objective meansure, the only way this means anything is "I like Alexander more than Portnoy but less than Mangini", and in a conversation like this, that is irrelevant (again, I don't mean that disrespectfully, since what I like is irrelevant also). 

[Podaar]

I would say the guys in DT are easily more proficient than the guys in Primus. The exception is Claypool > Myung. I like Myung, but his reputation is a bit baffling, since none of his parts have been anything really jaw-dropping since the 90s.

More like, none of his parts have been audible since the 1990's

[Stadler]

I would say the guys in DT are easily more proficient than the guys in Primus. The exception is Claypool > Myung. I like Myung, but his reputation is a bit baffling, since none of his parts have been anything really jaw-dropping since the 90s.

All subjective, perhaps, but when I saw Primus open for Rush, I was lucky enough to be basically second row center.   And at various points in that one 45 minute show, ALL THREE Primus guys did something on their instrument that made me go "Whoa!, how did he do THAT?".  In all the times I've seen DT, that has happened only once, and only with one member (Portnoy).   So perhaps we define "proficient" differently, and even if we did, I think "easily" is the wrong word. That we're even having the conversation ought to speak to those that aren't familiar with the band's work.

[Podaar]

I think folks haven't listened to enough Frizzle Fry. Even if you don't like the style of music, it's hard to deny that there are plenty of  moments on that record to match DT's catalog.

[rumborak]

I didn't even realise Primus had hits 

Well, hit. Pretty sure My Name Is Mud classifies as that.

[Stadler]

I didn't even realise Primus had hits 

Well, hit. Pretty sure My Name Is Mud classifies as that.

Hell, I was exposed to Primus through the "Jerry Was A Race Car Driver" video on the MTV.

[Podaar]

I didn't even realise Primus had hits 

Well, hit. Pretty sure My Name Is Mud classifies as that.

Hell, I was exposed to Primus through the "Jerry Was A Race Car Driver" video on the MTV.

"Too Many Puppies" was the first video I saw...speaking videos, "Wynona's Big Brown Beaver" made them pretty popular with my son's crowd at the time.