"Without album X, would DT still exist?"

[rumborak]

Thought this could be an interesting thread. What albums do you think, had they not existed, would have become a show-stopper to their career?
The two obvious ones would of course be IAW and SFAM. Definitely IAW I think, since that gave DT a lot of momentum after a totally lackluster start with WDADU. Another WDADU and they probably wouldn't have stuck with it for long. SFAM, I don't know. They had a decent track record at that point, and they probably would have trudged on. Maybe not until now, but definitely for a while.

[ariich]

I definitely think they COULD have carried on without SFAM (I mean, it's one of my least favourites, so yeah) and I think they still would have gained a strong following and probably wouldn't be in a hugely different position to where they are now.

However, I think SFAM was really important to them in terms of taking control and choosing their own direction. I know some people don't like the path that has taken them down in musical terms, but I have no doubt it's helped they're enjoyment of making music and desire to keep doing it. In turn, I imagine this has contributed to their work ethic and is a contributing factor to their success.




TL;DR version: Dunno, maybe.

[gmillerdrake]

I think that if SFAM wouldn't have been received as well as it did not only from the fans but internally with the band.....that MP would have jumped ship back then. Around that time is when he really dialed up his side projects (or mistresses to continue the hated marriage analogy) and I think had SFAM flopped or been just another 'blah' DT Record (in his eyes) he'd have found a reason to leave them high and dry then. You could file this in the other thread as well...the crazy DT theory one. It's just my opinion but I think a lot of what we saw from MP....the over involvment in the band process....the over availability to 'us'.....it was just a way for him to make it 'worth' him sticking around.

[rumborak]

I actually agree that while the rest of DT would have been fine with going on (as much as they were fine going on without MP many years later), MP really disliked FII and all it entailed, and had SFAM been a flop, that might have pushed him over the edge.

[bosk1]

I'm not sure why that is even speculation.  That is pretty much what he said more than a few times.

[Sycsa]

You pretty much exhausted every possible discussion in the OP. Whatever MP said, after I&W and Pull Me Under, there was no stopping this band.

[Chino]

I'll argue that LAB was a huge release for DT. It's timing was spot on in regards to people starting to watch videos of bands on the internet. I'm not saying they would have faded away without it, but I think it definitely boosted the success/popularity of the band.

[emtee]

I guess it's a good discussion what SFaM did for them other than they gained control of the band back. It sold OK but not great
so they didn't set the world on fire from a units-sold standpoint. The shows were attended well but not really significantly better
than the FII tour. So on the whole I think SFaM was more important for the band internally rather than externally. I would concede
though that there were a subset of fans that came back after SFaM that may have never come back. The fans that were
scratching their heads after FII.

[lithium112]

I think without ADTOE, DT would no longer exist. If they had taken a break with an undefined ending like MP suggested, I don't think they'd regain the momentum to continue playing.

[YtseJamittaja]

Interesting note which came to my mind after reading latest post:

In this year it's been five years since MP departure. MP suggested five-year-break so if they had chosen the break DT11 would perhaps be on the way right now...




Time flies.

[puppyonacid]

I guess it's a good discussion what SFaM did for them other than they gained control of the band back. It sold OK but not great
so they didn't set the world on fire from a units-sold standpoint. The shows were attended well but not really significantly better
than the FII tour. So on the whole I think SFaM was more important for the band internally rather than externally. I would concede
though that there were a subset of fans that came back after SFaM that may have never come back. The fans that were
scratching their heads after FII.

....which is strange in retrospect as I feel a lot of love for FII round these parts. I loved it when it came out so I never got the negativity towards it.

That said, Scenes was so well received by everyone and was an album you could show to your friends that they might like. I remember getting 4 or 5 of my friends to go watch DT on the Scenes tour and they really enjoyed the show.

Off topic slightly, but I wonder what might have happened had the Rev not sadly died. MP wouldn't have gone to A7X and may not have felt in a strong enough position to ask for the hiatus.

[gmillerdrake]

Off topic slightly, but I wonder what might have happened had the Rev not sadly died. MP wouldn't have gone to A7X and may not have felt in a strong enough position to ask for the hiatus.

My personal opinion just based off of comments/actions both before and after MP jumped ship is that he was looking for a way out or 'excuse' to do so for a while. Just my observation....could be way off but I think he put way more effort into his side projects and kind of 'mailed in' his last couple DT efforts. I could be wrong....just what I think. 

[TheCountOfNYC]

Off topic slightly, but I wonder what might have happened had the Rev not sadly died. MP wouldn't have gone to A7X and may not have felt in a strong enough position to ask for the hiatus.

My personal opinion just based off of comments/actions both before and after MP jumped ship is that he was looking for a way out or 'excuse' to do so for a while. Just my observation....could be way off but I think he put way more effort into his side projects and kind of 'mailed in' his last couple DT efforts. I could be wrong....just what I think.

I remember watching an episode of That Metal Show with Mike Portnoy right after he left the band. He said the tour with A7X was a part of it because he was having more fun with them than he had been having with DT for a few years. He also said he was at a party with guys like Eddie Trunk and Chris Jericho who he considers to be very good friends and realized that the guys in DT had never met them. He had a whole part of his life that the other four members weren't a part of and he was starting to feel the distance growing between them. I don't know how much of that was just excuse making and how much was true, but what happened after brings me to my next and on topic point.

Had A Dramatic Turn of Events not done well, Dream Theater may have had to call it quits or take time off. Losing Mike was a big deal because of how much he did for the band, and had the first album without him been a failure, the band may have thought that they couldn't do it without him. Obviously that didn't happen with many people (including myself) considering it one of their best albums and commercially it did well with the Grammy nomination. The success of ADTOE showed the band and the fans that they would be just fine without Mike Portnoy.

[XB0BX]

2112

[Podaar]

2112

That's actually the funniest thing you've posted on this website. 

[RaiseTheKnife]

2112

That's actually the funniest thing you've posted on this website. 

its also quite relevant.

[sneakyblueberry]

2112

That's actually the funniest thing you've posted on this website. 

its also quite relevant.

Yah, it's what I thought the thread was going to be about

I agree with Chino, I feel like Budokan, and in particular the Instrumedley plays/ed a big part in boosting DT's popularity in the internet age.  the Instrumedley is still my favourite DT live performance to watch - I could watch it over and over and not tire.  I think I'll watch it now actually.

[Sycsa]

I agree with Chino, I feel like Budokan, and in particular the Instrumedley plays/ed a big part in boosting DT's popularity in the internet age.  the Instrumedley is still my favourite DT live performance to watch - I could watch it over and over and not tire.  I think I'll watch it now actually.

I second that. My piano teacher gave me Live at Budokan when it first came out. I was 15 and into classic prog, so popping it in and hearing As I Am and This Dying Soul wasn't really up my street, so I easily dismissed DT like so many other bands with the "today's bands are shit" label I so easily jumped to back then. Since keyboards were my thing, I also remember fast forwarding to Jordan's solo with anticipation and being woefully disappointed how his lead imitated a guitar. "If he's just gonna sound like a guitar player, what's the point of having a keyboardist?" - I was thinking back then and I still think it's a valid point regarding Jordan's ToT-era lead sound.

Instrumedley, however, just amazed me and I kept coming back to it totally ignoring the rest of the DVD. Whenever I had music aficionado friends over, I'd show it to them and they'd be floored as well. I also perpetually had it on my MP3 player and I even set Jordan's ragtime piano solo as my ringtone for years. When I finally got into DT several years later, it was an incredibly interesting experience to gradually discover the original songs which were featured in Instrumedley, to hear familiar sections amidst a plethora of unfamiliar ones (especially rewarding in the case of ACoS and Metropolis). 

[goo-goo]

I think without the LTE albums, DT most likely would have sounded very different from what the band currently sounds. The LTE albums brought a different writing style to the band, brought a different keyboard member and re-inspired the band. I do not know, however, if the band would currently exist. I personally think they would have called it quits without the LTE albums because, IIRC, FII was a commercial failure from the label's point of view.

[?]

I guess it's a good discussion what SFaM did for them other than they gained control of the band back. It sold OK but not great
so they didn't set the world on fire from a units-sold standpoint. The shows were attended well but not really significantly better
than the FII tour. So on the whole I think SFaM was more important for the band internally rather than externally.

Exactly - according to these sales figures from February 2002, SFAM sold less than FII in the US: https://www.metalsludge.tv/?p=30356

Dream Theater "Falling Into Infinity"    
141,946
Dream Theater "Scenes From A Memory"    
123,275

Although commercially speaking SFAM was an even bigger "flop", I think the reception it got was encouraging enough for the band.

[chaossystem]

I can't say the band wouldn't have survived if this hadn't happened, but after SFaM, I would have to say that the two periods of time when they put out albums that were hits just when they needed them the most were in 2005 with Octavarium, and again in 2011 with A Dramatic Turn of events.

It seems there wasn't that much enthusiasm for Train of Thought, Systematic Chaos and BC&SL, but things picked up again in both 2005 and 2011. I'm not sure about Six Degrees, sales-wise, and I'm also not sure how all of the other albums I've named did in comparison to each other, but the general impression that I get on here (DT Forum) is that if those two albums hadn't been what they were and come along when they did, the band might have suffered severe financial losses, and maybe even have failed completely. same with SHaM, of course.

[BlobVanDam]

I guess it's a good discussion what SFaM did for them other than they gained control of the band back. It sold OK but not great
so they didn't set the world on fire from a units-sold standpoint. The shows were attended well but not really significantly better
than the FII tour. So on the whole I think SFaM was more important for the band internally rather than externally.

Exactly - according to these sales figures from February 2002, SFAM sold less than FII in the US: https://www.metalsludge.tv/?p=30356

Dream Theater "Falling Into Infinity"    
141,946
Dream Theater "Scenes From A Memory"    
123,275

Although commercially speaking SFAM was an even bigger "flop", I think the reception it got was encouraging enough for the band.

Once you factor in that the record label wouldn't have spent as much between music videos and advertising and and outside producers and songwriters, they probably still came out on top. It proved that they could still sell albums on their own terms with little help from the label.
They obviously weren't shifting IaW numbers, but they had built a strong fanbase that would consistently buy the albums.

[LCArenas]

SFAM was a landmark. They came from an album that they didn't even like and they felt burned-out and stripped of their creative liberties. Exploring their true sound with SFAM totally revitalized the band in my opinion. They discovered that their creative processes were better if only revised and discussed with themselves, and that was something that made them grow as a band and as a way to discover their sound. And of course, JR.

The other one is ADToE. They seemed tired in SC and BC&SL, and in my opinion becoming formulaic and predictable in their style and the way they released their albums. ADToE changed that and made them explore new forms of recording and song structures. It also made them regain old fans that had gone out of touch or had become tired of their recent albums. Had they agreed with MP and gone on hiatus and/or let him stay in the band I don't think they would be the band they are nowadays. Maybe they would have gotten tired like MP got. We'll never know.

[1neeto]

I say I&W was the make it or break it album. They just hired JLB, and if that didn't work, then I'm not sure how they would've recovered from that. The other significant album was ADTOE die to it being the first album after MP's departure.

[puppyonacid]

It seems there wasn't that much enthusiasm for Train of Thought

Yes there was

SFAM was a landmark. They came from an album that they didn't even like and they felt burned-out and stripped of their creative liberties.

I'm sure the bands negativity towards FII is a bit of a misconception. There's only been MP that was vocal about his dislike for how the album turned out. Yet even he concedes that there are some really strong songs on it.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

SFAM was a landmark. They came from an album that they didn't even like and they felt burned-out and stripped of their creative liberties.

I'm sure the bands negativity towards FII is a bit of a misconception. There's only been MP that was vocal about his dislike for how the album turned out. Yet even he concedes that there are some really strong songs on it.

And that the production was great. I think his frustration was more with the overall period of treatment from the label (waiting a long time to start the album, then the meddling, etc.) and how it felt to go through it, rather than thinking the actual resulting album was poor.

[SystematicThought]

I'll argue that LAB was a huge release for DT. It's timing was spot on in regards to people starting to watch videos of bands on the internet. I'm not saying they would have faded away without it, but I think it definitely boosted the success/popularity of the band.

To give further value to this, As I Am from LAB was one of the first clips of the band I ever saw on Youtube

[The Holy Tune]

I'm not sure whether it's been stated above but I'll go with FII. The ideas they kinda laid down in FII's making progress led them to create an album that we all know and love. If that album hadn't been produced back in 1997, I think we wouldn't be talking out here about this topic.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm not sure whether it's been stated above but I'll go with FII. The ideas they kinda laid down in FII's making progress led them to create an album that we all know and love. If that album hadn't been produced back in 1997, I think we wouldn't be talking out here about this topic.

That album was almost their downfall.

[Anguyen92]

I'm not sure whether it's been stated above but I'll go with FII. The ideas they kinda laid down in FII's making progress led them to create an album that we all know and love. If that album hadn't been produced back in 1997, I think we wouldn't be talking out here about this topic.

That album was almost their downfall.

But one might think that they needed that album and cause that downfall so that they become stronger and learn from mistakes and rise again for future albums.  I wouldn't think they could have created Scenes From a Memory as great as it is without how FII was regarded.

[Prog Snob]

I'm not sure why that is even speculation.  That is pretty much what he said more than a few times.

Exactly this.

[The Holy Tune]

I'm not sure whether it's been stated above but I'll go with FII. The ideas they kinda laid down in FII's making progress led them to create an album that we all know and love. If that album hadn't been produced back in 1997, I think we wouldn't be talking out here about this topic.

That album was almost their downfall.

But one might think that they needed that album and cause that downfall so that they become stronger and learn from mistakes and rise again for future albums.  I wouldn't think they could have created Scenes From a Memory as great as it is without how FII was regarded.

That's basically what I had in mind, the creating process of FII also led the way to SFAM. FII demos has the track called 'Metropolis Pt. 2", and it's basically the stem of the whole album.