Author Topic: Dream Theater entered the studio in February v. No News is Good News  (Read 476843 times)

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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #350 on: January 29, 2015, 03:32:00 AM »
But what if MM is actually talented enough to hit the snare at almost the same velocity and same position in the drum for short spurts or rolls to maintain a consistent sound? I remember that he made  a big deal about it in some interviews. For example:

“My challenge was keeping the velocities extremely high – if I hit one hit light in the middle of a run, it got lost. And to me it wasn’t light, because I could hear it perfectly fine. But with the recording software we use today, if it’s just a couple of dBs shy, it’s no good.”

I think the snare could definitely improve, but not about the hits sounding even because it can be done. Music school actually emphasizes evenness of hits as part of the discipline.

Evenness is fine. I would emphasize that too in playing any sort of beat. But when doing a fill or roll of sorts I think some moderation is necessary. Otherwise it sounds like a drum machine, and it just comes off stale. By what I have heard from Mangini on the albums so far, he is the worlds greatest drum machine, but doesn't have the "emotion" that is there on previous DT records.

Offline Sycsa

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #351 on: January 29, 2015, 03:35:06 AM »
Agreed, MP generally sounded good. Every now and then, he'd have something off on an album (the ACOS snare is too thin, sometimes the kicks had too many overtones), but the clarity and nuances were quite clear. One of the very few drummers who I can immediately pick out, just on cymbal sound alone. The only drawback with MP's sound was the toms, which always seemed a little...punchless? Maybe that's not the right word. They always came off a bit trebly and muffled to me compared to the kick and snare. But I'm guessing that's more a matter of taste than oversight on his part, especially given how consistent that sound was.

MP also had good snare sound on Awake and from ToT through his exit. It got a bit dry in the SFAM-SDOIT era and ACOS was an odd misstep, but otherwise (I&W samples disregarded, since that's not really him), he was pretty consistent with the snare. Not my favorite snare sound by any stretch, but comfortably above average.
I pretty much dead-on agree with your assessments of DT's drum sound. I wrote a more in-depth analysis about this a while back, if you haven't seen it: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41497.0

Out of curiosity, what are some of your overall favorite drum sounds/snare sounds ever?


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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #352 on: January 29, 2015, 05:36:09 AM »
I think Metallica's Black Album, Load and Reload, Garage Inc all have fantastic drum sounds.

The drums on Troublegum by Therapy?  :metal

Alan's kit on Whats The Story Morning Glory  :coolio



...Ooh and Nevermind by Nirvana of course. DAT DRUM SOUND.

Online Zydar

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #353 on: January 29, 2015, 05:49:59 AM »
Eric Carr on "Creatures Of The Night" by Kiss (1982). Huge drum sound, not just the snare.
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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #354 on: January 29, 2015, 07:30:59 AM »
Just checked out 'The Shattered Fortress' from BtFW, and yeah, that snare is great. I hope they use something like that for the new album.

Although, I sincerely hope JP doesn't use that mess of a guitar tone. Those lower notes are basically indistinguishable.
Oh yeah, that's probably JP's worst (7-string) tooone ever...

Offline rumborak

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #355 on: January 29, 2015, 07:46:56 AM »
But what if MM is actually talented enough to hit the snare at almost the same velocity and same position in the drum for short spurts or rolls to maintain a consistent sound? I remember that he made  a big deal about it in some interviews. For example:

“My challenge was keeping the velocities extremely high – if I hit one hit light in the middle of a run, it got lost. And to me it wasn’t light, because I could hear it perfectly fine. But with the recording software we use today, if it’s just a couple of dBs shy, it’s no good.”

I think the snare could definitely improve, but not about the hits sounding even because it can be done. Music school actually emphasizes evenness of hits as part of the discipline.

Evenness is fine. I would emphasize that too in playing any sort of beat. But when doing a fill or roll of sorts I think some moderation is necessary. Otherwise it sounds like a drum machine, and it just comes off stale. By what I have heard from Mangini on the albums so far, he is the worlds greatest drum machine, but doesn't have the "emotion" that is there on previous DT records.

This indeed. When they emphasize evenness in drumming classes, they are trying to combat beginners' habit of sometimes hitting the drum really hard, and the next barely audible.
However, when you overdo evenness, with a combination of technique and compression, you end up with the drum computer sound on DT12.
I'd also make the comment of, *what if* this was due to MM's crazy skill of being so even? While that might get you another trophy of "world's most consistent drummer" right next to the "world's fastest drummer", it simply isn't desirable in a musical sense.
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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #356 on: January 29, 2015, 10:39:21 AM »
Agreed, MP generally sounded good. Every now and then, he'd have something off on an album (the ACOS snare is too thin, sometimes the kicks had too many overtones), but the clarity and nuances were quite clear. One of the very few drummers who I can immediately pick out, just on cymbal sound alone. The only drawback with MP's sound was the toms, which always seemed a little...punchless? Maybe that's not the right word. They always came off a bit trebly and muffled to me compared to the kick and snare. But I'm guessing that's more a matter of taste than oversight on his part, especially given how consistent that sound was.

MP also had good snare sound on Awake and from ToT through his exit. It got a bit dry in the SFAM-SDOIT era and ACOS was an odd misstep, but otherwise (I&W samples disregarded, since that's not really him), he was pretty consistent with the snare. Not my favorite snare sound by any stretch, but comfortably above average.
I pretty much dead-on agree with your assessments of DT's drum sound. I wrote a more in-depth analysis about this a while back, if you haven't seen it: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41497.0

Out of curiosity, what are some of your overall favorite drum sounds/snare sounds ever?

Generally I like very big-sounding drums in the '80s tradition. The first two Steelheart albums have some of the most gloriously over-the-top snare/tom sounds I've ever heard. On a less extreme note, a lot of the Scandinavian bands (Nightwish, Children of Bodom, etc.) tend to have some excellent snares and toms.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #357 on: January 29, 2015, 11:21:00 AM »
Eric Carr on "Creatures Of The Night" by Kiss (1982). Huge drum sound, not just the snare.

Yeah that was a monster sound.
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #358 on: January 29, 2015, 03:49:44 PM »
I think Metallica's Black Album, Load and Reload, Garage Inc all have fantastic drum sounds.

The drums on Troublegum by Therapy?  :metal

Alan's kit on Whats The Story Morning Glory  :coolio



...Ooh and Nevermind by Nirvana of course. DAT DRUM SOUND.

I think that the snare sound on The Black Album is one of the best sounding drums ever recorded.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #359 on: January 29, 2015, 07:35:36 PM »
But what if MM is actually talented enough to hit the snare at almost the same velocity and same position in the drum for short spurts or rolls to maintain a consistent sound? I remember that he made  a big deal about it in some interviews. For example:

“My challenge was keeping the velocities extremely high – if I hit one hit light in the middle of a run, it got lost. And to me it wasn’t light, because I could hear it perfectly fine. But with the recording software we use today, if it’s just a couple of dBs shy, it’s no good.”

I think the snare could definitely improve, but not about the hits sounding even because it can be done. Music school actually emphasizes evenness of hits as part of the discipline.

Evenness is fine. I would emphasize that too in playing any sort of beat. But when doing a fill or roll of sorts I think some moderation is necessary. Otherwise it sounds like a drum machine, and it just comes off stale. By what I have heard from Mangini on the albums so far, he is the worlds greatest drum machine, but doesn't have the "emotion" that is there on previous DT records.

This indeed. When they emphasize evenness in drumming classes, they are trying to combat beginners' habit of sometimes hitting the drum really hard, and the next barely audible.
However, when you overdo evenness, with a combination of technique and compression, you end up with the drum computer sound on DT12.
I'd also make the comment of, *what if* this was due to MM's crazy skill of being so even? While that might get you another trophy of "world's most consistent drummer" right next to the "world's fastest drummer", it simply isn't desirable in a musical sense.

Which is a matter of taste. It's like not wanting slow mo reviews in baseball to retain the "human" element, whatever that means.

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #360 on: January 29, 2015, 09:40:19 PM »
But what if MM is actually talented enough to hit the snare at almost the same velocity and same position in the drum for short spurts or rolls to maintain a consistent sound? I remember that he made  a big deal about it in some interviews. For example:

“My challenge was keeping the velocities extremely high – if I hit one hit light in the middle of a run, it got lost. And to me it wasn’t light, because I could hear it perfectly fine. But with the recording software we use today, if it’s just a couple of dBs shy, it’s no good.”

I think the snare could definitely improve, but not about the hits sounding even because it can be done. Music school actually emphasizes evenness of hits as part of the discipline.

Evenness is fine. I would emphasize that too in playing any sort of beat. But when doing a fill or roll of sorts I think some moderation is necessary. Otherwise it sounds like a drum machine, and it just comes off stale. By what I have heard from Mangini on the albums so far, he is the worlds greatest drum machine, but doesn't have the "emotion" that is there on previous DT records.

This indeed. When they emphasize evenness in drumming classes, they are trying to combat beginners' habit of sometimes hitting the drum really hard, and the next barely audible.
However, when you overdo evenness, with a combination of technique and compression, you end up with the drum computer sound on DT12.
I'd also make the comment of, *what if* this was due to MM's crazy skill of being so even? While that might get you another trophy of "world's most consistent drummer" right next to the "world's fastest drummer", it simply isn't desirable in a musical sense.

Which is a matter of taste. It's like not wanting slow mo reviews in baseball to retain the "human" element, whatever that means.

Sort of. In the case of baseball, there's a definite "right call" and "wrong call." In music, there's not so much of a "right thing" vs. "wrong thing." There are two major things to consider when it comes to "wrong" playing (uneven drums, missed notes, etc.). First off, the tradition of music doesn't have too many examples of people who get everything perfect every time. Even musicians as world-class as the ones in DT miss things all the time, to say nothing of the standard rock bands or what not. So along comes someone who does sound "perfect," and it's a bit jarring. That's why most people don't like the I&W triggers, either. They may be perfectly even, but they don't reflect what it actually sounds like to hear music. Taken to a further extreme, this is one of the (many) reasons that autotune sucks.

Second, and on a related note, there is a certain catharsis that gets induced by playing that is in that tight "imperfect but still good range." The most obvious example of this in modern DT is James' live singing. There are plenty of spots where he's just off and it doesn't sound good, but there are also a ton where he manages to pull off a tough section, and you can feel the effort he's putting in in a way that you simply don't when you listen to I&W. Drumming can work the same way--as long as the section is ultimately sound, sometimes having tiny imperfections in there gives it more character and propulsion.

Of course, if a given listener can find a way to get a mental handle on the more mechanical playing and get the same emotional stimulation from it, they're entitled to it. If anything, I personally tend toward that, given my preference for more of the '80s style snare. My second favorite album is Crimson Glory's Transcendence, which uses a drum machine, after all. But the preference for "imperfect" playing definitely isn't as hard to understand (or anywhere near as wrongheaded) as the instant replay haters.

I still don't think Mangini's studio sound issues have much to do with him being "too perfect," though.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #361 on: January 29, 2015, 10:15:42 PM »
I still don't think Mangini's studio sound issues have much to do with him being "too perfect," though.

I agree. Here is an example of MM going "drum machine mode" and sounding good. I hope he does something like this in the next album.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWhqGPKfqvA

Offline rumborak

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #362 on: January 30, 2015, 06:27:32 AM »
Just FYI, he doesn't play all that you hear in that video. Pretty sure the conga thing is still a backing track that runs the whole way through.
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Offline puppyonacid

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #363 on: January 30, 2015, 08:53:39 AM »
Yea that's true. It's one of Nunos earlier pieces that he wrote with a sequenced drum track.

In that vid MM is just kind of jamming along with that backing track

Still cool though. As an aside, Midnight Express is one on the most badass (and tricky to play properly!) acoustic pieces I've ever heard.
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Offline JediKnight1969

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #364 on: January 30, 2015, 09:23:55 AM »
I love the drum sound of the "In from the storm" version of "The wind cries Mary" with Vinnie Colaiuta.

And the full Greg Howe's "Introspection" CD with Kevin Soffera on drums.
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Offline MarkFitDT

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #365 on: January 30, 2015, 10:00:29 AM »
I still don't think Mangini's studio sound issues have much to do with him being "too perfect," though.

I agree. Here is an example of MM going "drum machine mode" and sounding good. I hope he does something like this in the next album.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWhqGPKfqvA

thanks for that. Never seen that before. Mangini is amazing.

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #366 on: January 30, 2015, 10:21:35 AM »
This afternoon, I got that little buzz of excitement about this new album cycle, and all the buildup that is ahead of us over the coming months. All the announcements that will come, like the title, tracklist, release date, and the first track release.

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #367 on: January 30, 2015, 10:23:45 AM »
I've always enjoyed the mix in Neal Morse's releases. Very 'fair' to each instrument and no matter what his projects always sound good. It'd be cool if he did the mix for DT's next album....I know it won't happend but I bet it'd sound good.
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Offline Laughingplace56

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #368 on: January 30, 2015, 08:17:26 PM »
I LOVE the way Periphery mixes their albums. PII and Juggernaut are mixed absolutely perfectly imo. I'd love a mix like those albums. Maybe they could ask Nolly to do it  :lol

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #369 on: January 31, 2015, 12:53:40 AM »
I LOVE the way Periphery mixes their albums. PII and Juggernaut are mixed absolutely perfectly imo. I'd love a mix like those albums. Maybe they could ask Nolly to do it  :lol

While I absolutely agree, those albums sound fantastic, especially Juggernaut. I don't think it's the right style for DT. Too raw.

Offline Dellers

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #370 on: January 31, 2015, 09:51:26 AM »
I just hope they can get Jens Bogren to mix it. I haven't really liked any of the mixes from the last decade. Such a shame that a band with some of the most talented musicians in the world never sounds as good as far less known bands.
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Offline tofee35

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #371 on: January 31, 2015, 11:22:59 AM »
I think I'm late to the party, but..

I think MM's evenness and robotic sound has everything to do with his accent (and flam) placement and stick velocity choices. In other words, he doesn't accent during rolls or change how hard he hits the drums while he's rolling. He chooses to have a more even sound. MP, in contrast, accented and flam'd all over the place.

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #372 on: January 31, 2015, 11:39:11 AM »
I think I'm late to the party, but..

I think MM's evenness and robotic sound has everything to do with his accent (and flam) placement and stick velocity choices. In other words, he doesn't accent during rolls or change how hard he hits the drums while he's rolling. He chooses to have a more even sound. MP, in contrast, accented and flam'd all over the place.

-Tof


I've always thought that being taught how to play something "properly" takes away your creativity and individuality.

After a few months on my music degree I could only think in theory and scales when I was writing and I wanted to get away from that.

But then again - Mangini's goal wa always to be as technically proficient as he could - so it's a case by case thing.

Offline YtseJamittaja

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #373 on: January 31, 2015, 12:23:03 PM »
Quote from: Dellers link=topic=43071.msg1917482#msg1917482 date= :hefdaddy
I just hope they can get Jens Bogren to mix it. I haven't really liked any of the mixes from the last decade. Such a shame that a band with some of the most talented musicians in the world never sounds as good as far less known bands.

While I actually agree, I think Jens really should mix it but he shouldn't compress the sound too much.
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #374 on: January 31, 2015, 12:33:28 PM »
I think I'm late to the party, but..

I think MM's evenness and robotic sound has everything to do with his accent (and flam) placement and stick velocity choices. In other words, he doesn't accent during rolls or change how hard he hits the drums while he's rolling. He chooses to have a more even sound. MP, in contrast, accented and flam'd all over the place.

-Tof

I agree and it's part of the reason why I prefer Portnoy. Mangini is an incredible drummer, but the evenness of his hits makes for less dynamic and engaging drumming. MP has an incredible gift for knowing exactly which hits to accent to enhance his drum parts and in turn the whole song. His flams in the second verse of Trial of Tears really hit you in the face and make that whole section better. MM's playing while technically astounding is also too perfect at times. I feel like I'm listening to a drum machine sometimes and that's not always enjoyable. I could listen to Portnoy's drum parts without any other instrumentation and still enjoy it because his playing is so musical. I can't do that with Mangini's parts.
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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #375 on: February 01, 2015, 06:45:46 AM »
Jordan posted this video of him playing the Continuum wiith its internal sounds yesterday: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152726256062989

I think it sounds pretty cool and I'd love to hear something like that on the next album.

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #376 on: February 01, 2015, 06:48:59 AM »
So would I. But I think that every single time I see a video of him playing outside of DT...
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Offline Sycsa

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #377 on: February 01, 2015, 06:50:14 AM »
Jordan posted this video of him playing the Continuum wiith its internal sounds yesterday: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152726256062989

I think it sounds pretty cool and I'd love to hear something like that on the next album.
Yeah, it's cool and the sound has plenty of character and uniqueness. A lot of times, it reminds me of the Mellotron (w/o all the bending, of course), but the thing definitely has a sound of its own.


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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #378 on: February 01, 2015, 06:57:11 AM »
I'm sure Jordan has a trillion sounds he can call upon across all his keyboards and rack units.

Didn't they say that they spent a couple of hours on each song for DT12 going through all of his sounds to find the best one ?

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #379 on: February 01, 2015, 10:18:31 AM »
Here's hoping for excellent tones from all instruments, especially MM.

Loved JP's tone on DT12, hope he keeps that  :tup

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #380 on: February 01, 2015, 01:01:56 PM »
So would I. But I think that every single time I see a video of him playing outside of DT...

For many years, I disagreed with this stance, because I found a lot of the "JR sections" to be out of place in DT and stall the flow. Having gotten more into LTE and his solo albums recently, though, I've come around. Not that I suddenly want DT's sound to be driven by JR rather than JP, but the problem is that JR only seems to get these occasional parts where his influence comes through, and they're so identifiable and different that they don't fit. If he could be incorporated more organically in places, or better yet, if he could be the "main driver" of at least one song, I think the music would be better for it.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #381 on: February 01, 2015, 01:37:27 PM »
Also, LMR shows JR can integrate his ideas very well into someone else's songwriting, provided he gets the space.
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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #382 on: February 02, 2015, 11:49:47 AM »
Mike Mangini Facebook:

Congratulations to the New England Patriots !! That game lived up to the hype. Now, it is on to the studio tomorrow to set up to be sure DT's next album also delivers !!


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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #383 on: February 02, 2015, 12:45:18 PM »
If the album turns out like the game, I'd like to get out of this 'life' thing.

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Re: Dream Theater in the Studio February
« Reply #384 on: February 02, 2015, 12:46:31 PM »
 :rollin DETH PLZ COZ LOST GAME