Dream Theater entered the studio in February v. No News is Good News

[Anguyen92]

The Count of Tuscany > Octavarium

COME AT ME

I like the Count of Tuscany over Octavarium,  particularly the last verses of the TCOT.  Even if the story seems tad too strange, I, for some reason, can relate to that part when I hear the words "Could this be the end? Is this the way I die? Sitting here alone. No one by my side."

[Prog Snob]

"BC&SL has songs like Learning to Live, A Change of Seasons, Pull Me Under, The Glass Prison and Octavarium all on it!"

BTW, is there a consensus regarding which song was supposed to be which? I guess:

The Best of Times=ACOS
The Count of Tuscany=Octavarium
it gets trickier from here
The Glass Prison could be both TSF and ANTR.
LTL=AROP? Wither?
PMU=?

Pretty sure it was:
ANtR = ACoS
ARoP = PMU
Wither = none
TSF = TGP
TBoT = LtL
TCoT = 8v

Those are some poor comparisons, Scotty.  Wouldn't you agree?  Maybe TSF = TGP, but that's because some of the same melodies appear in both songs.

[Setlist Scotty]

"BC&SL has songs like Learning to Live, A Change of Seasons, Pull Me Under, The Glass Prison and Octavarium all on it!"

BTW, is there a consensus regarding which song was supposed to be which? I guess:

The Best of Times=ACOS
The Count of Tuscany=Octavarium
it gets trickier from here
The Glass Prison could be both TSF and ANTR.
LTL=AROP? Wither?
PMU=?

Pretty sure it was:
ANtR = ACoS
ARoP = PMU
Wither = none
TSF = TGP
TBoT = LtL
TCoT = 8v

Those are some poor comparisons, Scotty.  Wouldn't you agree?  Maybe TSF = TGP, but that's because some of the same melodies appear in both songs.

The comparisons might not be great, but I think we're talking about general feel/song length, not carbon copy and/or structure like IaW/ADToE. I know that the ARoP to PMU comparison is correct for a fact (heavy, catchy, 8 minute-ish songs). If the others are incorrect, then what do you think they'd be otherwise?

[Prog Snob]

I'm not saying you're assumptions are wrong. I'm just saying that MP's descriptions misled us.  Don't get me wrong BC&SL has grown on me a lot lately.  So I love the CD more than I did last year at this time.  I just would not even attempt the compare ANTR to ACOS or TBOT to LTL.  Thinking more about it, I could see the TCOT to 8V comparison. 

[?]

The Count of Tuscany > Octavarium

[ZirconBlue]

. . .and CoS was, if I remember correctly, because the fans wanted an official release of the song, but it had to be on an EP, not a full length, to keep the label happy...

I don't think you remember correctly.  I'm pretty sure MP was behind calling it an EP, since it only had the one new track on it.

[lyfeternl]

And here I was thinking I was coming back to a few new pages of updates and discussion on the new album...silly me... 

[Prog Snob]

The Count of Tuscany > Octavarium

That's a really close call for me.  I could pick one today but then tomorrow decide I like the other one better. They're both amazing songs. I would have to sit down and analyze it because it's just that close. The song TCOT is great from start to finish.  But the end of the song, from the acoustic guitar part to the end solo, is one of the most amazing pieces of music they have ever done.  It's one of JP's best solos. It easily beats the outro solo in 8V.  The lyrics in 8V are better. The ridiculous unisons in 8V are a favorite part of mine. The intro to 8V is cool but maybe goes on a tad too long. The vocal melodies for the verse in TCOT could have been better. 

I just don't know. Right now I would say The Count of Tuscany.

[Stadler]

Not even sure anymore, but I just know that that quote became kind of a running joke, because the new songs did not match up to their supposed past counterparts, when Portnoy probably meant they were similar in style, but when you compare new songs to old classics, comparing the quality will happen, which is why I think that is one case where the pre-album hype came back to bite them a little bit (since the album isn't that popular now anyway, and when comparing the songs off it to Octavarium, Learning to Live, etc., it falls even shorter).

NOT specifically to KevShmev, but this is the problem with updates.   We clamor for updates, and when we get them, we lambaste them for not being what we wanted (or from our perspective).  I can ABSOLUTELY see how those line up, be it from a lyrical perspective, a feel perspective, etc., and whether that means I think of them that way is immaterial. 

Personally, for me, it's all noise until I hear the album.    I'm even anti-pre-release-snippets, since I seem to always find them misleading and inaccurate. I think it is fun to "banter" with the band and hear their take, then do the compare, but I'm of the opinion (back to the BC&SL thing), if there is ultimately a discrepancy with how the band sees things (compared to the final product) and how the fans see things (compared to the final product), the band wins, since they are there every day. 

[The Presence of Frenemies]

When it comes to the BCSL comparisons, frankly I think TCoT has more in common with LTL and ACOS than it does with 8V. If anything, TBOT is more like 8V, with the long slow intro, triumphant ending solo, and fairly middle-of-the-road vocal sections in between (obviously it's shorter and less proggy and diverse, but I could see it being like 8V with III/IV stripped out, sort of). Obviously TGP/TSF makes sense, and I think you could sort of compare AROP to PMU and TBOT/TCOT to two of the other trio. What makes no sense is comparing ANTR to anything in that group other than TGP (covered by TSF already).

[j]

That's a really close call for me.  I could pick one today but then tomorrow decide I like the other one better. They're both amazing songs. I would have to sit down and analyze it because it's just that close. The song TCOT is great from start to finish.  But the end of the song, from the acoustic guitar part to the end solo, is one of the most amazing pieces of music they have ever done.  It's one of JP's best solos. It easily beats the outro solo in 8V.  The lyrics in 8V are better. The ridiculous unisons in 8V are a favorite part of mine. The intro to 8V is cool but maybe goes on a tad too long. The vocal melodies for the verse in TCOT could have been better. 

I just don't know. Right now I would say The Count of Tuscany.

This sums up my feelings on the issue almost perfectly, except I don't think TCOT is "great from start to finish."  The bulk of the song leaves a lot to be desired, but the intro and ending are so good that I still think it might edge out Octavarium, which is consistent but without anything jaw-dropping.

-J

[PetFish]

Stadler gets it.

I think people just set themselves up for disappointment if they start analyzing every syllable of every text snippet or every piece of a photo.

I'm so anti-spoilers these days.  There's just too much friggin' social media bombs showing up everywhere.  Staying away from them is an art form and judging by how much more awesome the last few movies I've seen after avoiding any discussion about them is the way I'm going to be going from now on.

I've already said this but I am LOVING no updates from the guys.  It's so refreshing.

[BlobVanDam]

If you don't like updates, stay away from them. No need for everyone else to put up with none.

Personally I could do with any kind of update, because my expectations and interest level right now is basically zero. There's nothing refreshing about....... nothing. And it's just good PR to engage with the fans and build some momentum leading up to a new album.

[Kotowboy]

I don't mind lack of updates if at some point we suddenly get artwork, album title and tracklist all on the same day.

I seem to remember a similar thing happening for Black Clouds.

[Prog Snob]

I like SOME updates.  Maybe some artwork or a track listing without song lengths. Set up some kind of discussion for us. I'm sure we'll get something eventually but I don't mind some secrecy. I'd rather appreciate the rest when I listen to the album.

[nikatapi]

I'm sure that the album is not finalised at this point, they were still in the studio according to Jordan's social media updates, and Mike also said he was taking a break from the studio for the UK tour. So we'll get updates once the album starts to take a more specific form.

[Madman Shepherd]

If you don't like updates, stay away from them. No need for everyone else to put up with none.

Personally I could do with any kind of update, because my expectations and interest level right now is basically zero. There's nothing refreshing about....... nothing. And it's just good PR to engage with the fans and build some momentum leading up to a new album.

Leading up to the new album?  They don't even have an album title, cover, or most importantly release date.  There is plenty of time to build momentum to lead up to a new album.  We haven't even gotten to the point of "leading up to a new album".

[VincentMDO]

If it follows the pattern, we'll have some info by next month. Both ADTOE and DT were announced in June. Supposing things seems rather slow this time, I guess we'll hear the name of the new album by July.

[BlobVanDam]

If you don't like updates, stay away from them. No need for everyone else to put up with none.

Personally I could do with any kind of update, because my expectations and interest level right now is basically zero. There's nothing refreshing about....... nothing. And it's just good PR to engage with the fans and build some momentum leading up to a new album.

Leading up to the new album?  They don't even have an album title, cover, or most importantly release date.  There is plenty of time to build momentum to lead up to a new album.  We haven't even gotten to the point of "leading up to a new album".

As soon as they enter the studio to record a new album, you're leading up to a new album! It's hard to put a lid on that once it's begun. I don't expect much at this stage, but in the past we've had plenty of photos of instrument setups, brief videos, something small. Just something to see that more than one band member is in the studio at a time would do me fine. The whole process feels very segmented from an outside POV this time, because we're seeing so little.

[PetFish]

If you don't like updates, stay away from them. No need for everyone else to put up with none.

What the hell, man?  I'm not trying to get anyone to put with not having any, just saying how much I've been enjoying things not being spoiled these days.  Jeez.

[RoeDent]

Personally I could do with any kind of update, because my expectations and interest level right now is basically zero.

This. It's just...there. Something that will happen in the future, but something that right now I'm not buzzing with excitement about. I'm sure that will change when details start being revealed. At least, I hope I get at least a little bit excited. Y'know, butterflies in the stomach and all that.

[Aythesryche]

I'm suddenly reminded of The Boy Who Cried Wolf for some reason. I occasionally come into the thread seeing there are new posts, thinking theres some update on the new DT album, and, well... Disappointment ensues.

Personally, I enjoy the little snippets of hype, but I don't need them. I'll be equally pumped for DTs new album with or without it. Until then, there is so much other good music out there to keep me entertained.

[Madman Shepherd]

Personally, I enjoy the little snippets of hype, but I don't need them. I'll be equally pumped for DTs new album with or without it. Until then, there is so much other good music out there to keep me entertained.

This

[chrisbDTM]

haven't been following them as closely as I had for previous albums but I'm really hoping for something different. I'd love for them to take some sort of a risk where they don't stick to the regular formula

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

haven't been following them as closely as I had for previous albums but I'm really hoping for something different. I'd love for them to take some sort of a risk where they don't stick to the regular formula

6DOIT.

I hear you bro, although I find it very unlikely to happen. We're probably getting another 'DT at its best...being melodic, progressive and heavy'

[Prog Snob]

haven't been following them as closely as I had for previous albums but I'm really hoping for something different. I'd love for them to take some sort of a risk where they don't stick to the regular formula

I think it's a little late in their career for them to do anything too risky. They're pretty much set with a specific formula.

[Stadler]

haven't been following them as closely as I had for previous albums but I'm really hoping for something different. I'd love for them to take some sort of a risk where they don't stick to the regular formula

Not saying this to you directly, but I don't think - generally - that people are telling the truth when they say this.

They HAVE taken risks, and by and large, they get pounded for it.   If you look at it fairly objectively, their "riskier" albums (which for the benefit of this post would be those things that veer from the "Rush/Yes/Maiden" type template - ala I&W) have all been met with varying degree of scorn and derision.   FII, ToT, SC, BC&SL are all divisive albums in the catalogue.   

It seems as a whole, we DON'T want risk.  We want more of what it is we like, and shooting for that, as an artist, is the kiss of death, if you ask me. 

[TAC]

Interesting post, Stad.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, to a certain extent, they can't win.

BC&SL: "These compositions are too bloated and metal influenced.  This is too far afield from what I like about DT."

ADTOE: "These songs are too reminiscent of older albums.  They played it too safe.  I wish they would focus more on concise songwriting with less wankery."

DT12: "These songs are too short."

Sure, it's a different group complaining with each complaint.  But they will never satisfy everyone.  So they should just focus on producing something that THEY like.

[BlobVanDam]

haven't been following them as closely as I had for previous albums but I'm really hoping for something different. I'd love for them to take some sort of a risk where they don't stick to the regular formula

I think it's a little late in their career for them to do anything too risky. They're pretty much set with a specific formula.

If anything, being so established should give them the opportunity to take a chance, without it affecting them much. DT's album sales are mostly from loyal diehard fans, who will support the band regardless, because DT have earned that. And album sales would only be a small percentage of DT's income compared to touring, I would imagine.

DT have covered so much ground over time that there is always going to be some subset of fans that complain. That's not a problem, it's just the nature of being a (prog) band, and shouldn't discourage DT from doing what they want, instead of aiming for a safe middle ground to satisfy the average fan, because DT don't really have an average fan.

[rumborak]

This may be a bit cynical, but I actually think those previous attempts by them to branch out, were really all they could do. It seems that *when* they decide to incorporate new stuff, it ends up being carbon copies of whatever the influence was. So, when they try their hand on a modern synth-rock tune, you end up with a Muse song. When they try a thrash-inspired song, you get a Metallica carbon copy. Even a classical section can apparently not go out the door without plugging straight Tchaikovsky into it.
They've tried it so many times, and with almost always disastrous results, they simply may have said "let's stick with what we do".

[BlobVanDam]

You're absolutely right.



That was cynical.


I'm not even necessarily talking different styles, just a different approach to writing the music, a different dynamic.
I sometimes don't feel that all of the individual members current interests and influences get filtered through to the music. I've lost count of how many times I've heard JR play something cool for Youtube or Facebook and wanted something like that on the album, and then get nothing like any of it.
#JRUnleashed #MMMoreUnleashed #FreeTheChapmanStick

[Lucien]

This may be a bit cynical, but I actually think those previous attempts by them to branch out, were really all they could do. It seems that *when* they decide to incorporate new stuff, it ends up being carbon copies of whatever the influence was. So, when they try their hand on a modern synth-rock tune, you end up with a Muse song. When they try a thrash-inspired song, you get a Metallica carbon copy. Even a classical section can apparently not go out the door without plugging straight Tchaikovsky into it.
They've tried it so many times, and with almost always disastrous results, they simply may have said "let's stick with what we do".

it's funny because Jordan's awesome composition Explorations for Keyboard and Orchestra is awesome

[FiberglassMoon]

haven't been following them as closely as I had for previous albums but I'm really hoping for something different. I'd love for them to take some sort of a risk where they don't stick to the regular formula

I think it's a little late in their career for them to do anything too risky. They're pretty much set with a specific formula.

If anything, being so established should give them the opportunity to take a chance, without it affecting them much. DT's album sales are mostly from loyal diehard fans, who will support the band regardless, because DT have earned that. And album sales would only be a small percentage of DT's income compared to touring, I would imagine.

DT have covered so much ground over time that there is always going to be some subset of fans that complain. That's not a problem, it's just the nature of being a (prog) band, and shouldn't discourage DT from doing what they want, instead of aiming for a safe middle ground to satisfy the average fan, because DT don't really have an average fan.

Man I completely agree.  It's not like these DT releases are "Make or break" albums for them.  They have a direhard fan base with diverse reasons for loving the band; they shouldn't have to worry about appeasing people or pandering to a certain sound. 

The whole idea of a "safe middle ground" for a "progressive" band is paradoxical. Whatever music they feel inspired to create is the music I want to hear....not what they think I want to hear.  They have enough cache with me that I'm going to support them even if the next release doesn't resonate with me.  Obviously I can't be sure if the band thinks this way, but they really shouldn't have to.

As far as updates are concerned...

I'd like to see some sort of studio update or update in general.  Just something to keep me interested and to give a feel for what the band's been up to.  I don't even want any sort of BCSL-esque updates about the sound of the album...more along the lines of something fun and behind the scenes.

[BlobVanDam]

And I'm not saying that DT aren't making the music they want, or playing it safe on every album, but I do feel like they sometimes limit themselves by fan expectations.